At a loss

[Fishyfanatic]

I have been battling a planted tank for about a year and a half now. I say battling because it has not been easy. When I lived at my old apt in another town the plants thrived. I was trimming back Anacharis on a weekly basis. Finally ran out of places to plant it between three tanks so I started tossing the extra clippings. My very first plant, an Anubias Nana (I think I spelled that right), was thriving. Then we moved.

Our water is like liquid rock (above 300). I just re-tested the pH and it is off the charts. It reads 8.8 but that's the highest that the AP kit tests. This is great for the Africans, but not so much for my plants. I'm thinking that this is the cause. BTW- The Africans are not in the same tank. The tank has Angels, True Rummies, Hi-fin Serpae Tetras, and a few cories.

I have been testing, dosing, and changing up the pwc schedule to try and increase my Nitrates and Phosphates. When I was doing weekly 50% water changes the Nitrates were trace and phosphates were non-existant. I cut it back to a 50% every two weeks, still had the same results. The plants were eating it up but still wilting.

It is a low light tank (stock lighting). The lighting was never an issue when I had a pH of 7.2 and soft water. That's why I think it has to do with the pH and hardness. I can't even get Anacharis to live. What do you guys think? I don't want to buy a new light strip if I am not going to be able to have plants because of the pH and hardness. I have a large piece of Malaysian driftwood in the tank but it does nothing to lower the levels. Do I have to resort to altering the water chemistry with peat moss? I am at a total loss here.

Tonights test results:
pH 8.8+
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20
Phosphates 2

 

[rkilling1]

Many people have grown plants with very hard water. You did not list your GH, so I can't say how hard your water is, but with a pH of atleast 8.8, we can say that it is pretty hard.

The problem probably is a lack of either Ca++ (unlikely) or mg++. GH being the measurement of both Ca and Mg. I would add either GH booster or SeaChem Equilibrium once a week during water changes. You are probably thinking I am crazy, but even having hard water doesn't mean it will contain Mg++. If you could test for Ca++ or Mg++ that would be best. IF it is a lack of Mg++, then MgSO4·7H2O (epsom salt) can be added weekly.

again plants do fine in hard water. I do not think that is your problem. I DO believe it is a nutrient deficiency. I would add the GH booster and see how the plants do over the coarse of a month and go from there.

You also did not list what the plants are doing (more precisely). ie yellow spots, withering of leaf edges, dead yellowish tissue between leaf nerves, ect..

any info will help us help you.

I will continue to research this topic and edit in what I find. A Mg++ deficiency should only be a problem with a higher level of lighting, that is why I will continue to research this.

EDIT:

Would you please list what you dose? so I can rule out all other deficiencies.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I'm not exactly sure on the name. If JChillin sees this, hopefully he remembers since he sent them to me. At the time that he sent them I wrote down the name but I can't seem to find it at the moment.

They are not growing in the slightest. They are a light green coloration, not a dark green like they were when I got them. The "leaves" are soft, not thick like they used to be. And they are withering on the edges. They are slowly getting smaller and smaller.

I am dosing Nitrogen and Phosphates to get the levels up. I would have to go for over a month without doing a water change to get the Nitrates and Phosphates up past a trace level. I am also using root tabs.

I'll re-test the GH since I didn't write down the number earlier.

::edit::

GH is 393.8 ppm
KH is 358 ppm

 

[rkilling1]

Ok, this is what I would do. I would add a trace mix once a week. Forget about all the Ca++ and Mg++ that other guy was posting about. I think he was thinking more in-line with a high light tank.

I would get either CSM+B or Seachem Flourish (which contain Mg++). They contain all the trace elements that your plants need. I believe that is all that is missing from your tank. I have researched this for a little over an hour and have not found any info that suggests that plants will not grow (except a select handfull) in hard or even very hard water.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I believe that I have Flourish but it's probably about 2 years old. Do you think it's still good?

Thank you for all your research. It is greatly appreciated.

 

[rkilling1]

I believe that I have Flourish but it's probably about 2 years old. Do you think it's still good?

Thank you for all your research. It is greatly appreciated.

I don't see why it would, but chemicals do go bad. I could not find this written anywhere.

"I am dosing Nitrogen and Phosphates" What products are you using to dose these? does the Nitrogen product also contain K?

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I found the bottle. Just to clarify, I am supposed to use Flourish Excel, correct? There isn't another type of Flourish?

 

[rkilling1]

I found the bottle. Just to clarify, I am supposed to use Flourish Excel, correct? There isn't another type of Flourish?

Nope, just plain old seachem "Flourish". That is a Micro nutrient additive.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

::edit:: Nevermind, I figured it out. Thanks!

 

[fish_4_all]

Don't count on your GH being both CA and Mg, my GH from the tap is only about 3 degrees but it is 100% Mg, absolutely no CA. My plants really suffered as well as my snails until I started adding Calcium. Don't discount the need for it regardless of your lighting.

As for the plants, you could be dealing with too much of something that is inhibiting the uptake of needed nutrients. I don't know enough about it to give any advice but it is possible. Hopefully someone else can give better advice on determining if this is the possibility for your problems.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I know that we have a lot of calcium in our water because I am scraping calcium buildup off of the tank on a weekly basis and it is still overrunning me. I ordered the Flourish and a new light strip yesterday. I'm hoping that the combination of the two will revive my plants and allow me to expand to different types. I will be at 2.75 wpg with the new strip.

 

[Purrbox]

Once your light is upgraded make sure to have CO2 and a full set of ferts ready to go at the same time. Without them you'll just be giving algae free run in your tank.

Your tap water really is at the high side for what plant prefer to deal with. You might want to consider mixing your tap water with RO water, say 50/50. This would soften up the water some and give your plants more of a fighting chance.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I am working on the DIY Co2 at the moment but am stumped. May have to hold off on using the new light strip until I understand what exactly I need to make the unit and how it works. I posted in the DIY forum and have read so many threads regarding making the unit, but it does not make sense to me.

What kind of ferts do I need to have on hand?

 

[Purrbox]

You'll need a Trace Mix, Nitrates, Phosphates, and Potassium. Since you're dealing with a large aquarium, I'd recommend buying dry ferts from Greg Watson. They are really reasonably priced and will last a long time. The ones that you would need are as follows:
Trace - CSM+B
Nitrates - KNO3 (Potassium Nitrate)
Phosphates - KH2PO4 (Mono Potassium Phosphate)
Potassium - K2SO4 (Potassium Sulfate)

The Flourish will fill the same role as the CSM+B, but will run out a lot faster. By ordering the CSM+B you'll have it on hand for when the Flourish runs out.

A 55 gallon is really the largest tank that you'd want think about DIY CO2 with. You'll need to make sure that you have plenty of bottle volume for CO2 generation and an efficient method of diffusion. Probably aim for 5-6 Two Liter Bottles or 3 One Gallon Bottles. You'll want to look at building/buying a power reactor. There are several different versions, it's just a matter of picking the one that works best for you. My person favorite is the Inline CO2 Reactor which is pretty easy to build. There's also the one that is described in the CO2 article that I linked for you in your DIY thread.

 

[Jchillin]

I'm not exactly sure on the name. If JChillin sees this, hopefully he remembers since he sent them to me. At the time that he sent them I wrote down the name but I can't seem to find it at the moment.

Dang, sorry I didn't see this FF. If I remember correctly (it was soooo long ago), I sent you some anacharis (thin long stemmed plants with small rosette leaves), java ferns and possibly a crypt wendtii bronze.

FWIW, I didn't realize it until cz pointed it out that I was a bit low on the Ca side and he recommended Equillibrium. Things look at lot better since then.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

The Anacharis left me first when we moved here. It was flourishing when we lived at the old apt. When we moved it just melted away, just like the java ferns. I'm talking about the one that looks liks grass. The most recent one. And for the life of me I can't remember the name. Very tall and big plants.

 

[Purrbox]

Sounds like it was probably either Vals or Sag.

 

[fish_4_all]

Well with the the calcium causing the need to clean, then maybe it is Mg, I know the ratio is supposed to be 4:1, Ca:Mg so maybe that is off some.

I would also recommend Gregs if for nothing else than the ability to get just about everything you need for very little cash and that way you always have it on hand if a deficiency shows up. I know most don't recommend it but I would get calcium chloride and iron chelate if you can. The GH booster is always a good idea but I don't know if you can get a steady Ca:Mg ratio with it. Get twice as much pottasium sulfate as it goes quickly with regular dosing.

For DIY CO2, if you want to go that way, I would say 2 setups of at least two, 2 liter bottles but I would run 3 at each end of the tank running into powerheads at each end. Change one of each set out at least every week using wine yeast and plenty of sugar.

 

[rkilling1]

I am working on the DIY Co2 at the moment but am stumped. May have to hold off on using the new light strip until I understand what exactly I need to make the unit and how it works. I posted in the DIY forum and have read so many threads regarding making the unit, but it does not make sense to me.

What kind of ferts do I need to have on hand?

Going to a new light will be your best option(good choice) IMO. This will allow you to EI dose and rule out any nutrient deficiences by maintaining a set range of nutrients within your aquarium. ie this takes away most of the guess work that you have in lower lighted tanks. Keep us updated.

Your only guess work or limiting factor will be CO2. DIY CO2 on a 55 is pushing it, but it will suffice. Pressurized being the preferred method of injection. An in-line reactor is a good choice as well as the PH mist method.

the Mist method is becoming the preferred method, due to the the size of the bubble and the solublity of CO2 and suface area of the bubble and the CO2 concentration around the bubble ect..
(I can link you some info on this if you would like)

I am currently using Tom Barr's Venturi reactor's. They have worked GREAT for both of my tanks. (cheap and effective)
http://www.barrreport.com/articles/72-venturi-design.html

 

[rkilling1]

As for the plants, you could be dealing with too much of something that is inhibiting the uptake of needed nutrients. I don't know enough about it to give any advice but it is possible. Hopefully someone else can give better advice on determining if this is the possibility for your problems.

I don't see how that could happen. Granted I am a Noob when it comes to botany, but with mobile and immobile elemental nutrients, as long as some of the nutrients are available, the plant should uptake them for for use in Chlorophyll and photosynthesis. (granted having all other components available also). Chlorosis results from not having a nutrient available, not from having too much available.

I think what you are seeing is one of the lower concentrations of nutrients is being used up and therefore it appears that the higher concentrations is hendering the uptake when infact it is not.

Just my $.02

Do you have any info on this?