CO2 Help

[Fishperson]

So the title says, "CO2 help," but this thread is really about a bunch of stuff.

First of all, my CO2 tank.

The tank itself is an Empire 20 ounce tank.

The regulator is by Aquatek, and specifically formatted for paintball tanks.

But something is wrong. My tank is running out unexpectedly after only 3 weeks of use. It is usually on at a reasonable rate (I don't have a bubble counter) for ~15 hours a day.

The pressure gauge was at ~900 psi, right above the green zone, around two weeks ago, but now it's at 0.

Did it just run out? Before it has shown these symptoms, and if I took the regulator off and then put it back on it would work as normal and return to ~600 psi or whatever it was at before. I tried that now and it doesn't work.


Secondly, I'm getting more algae than I'd like in this tank. It is a 20 gallon high (16 inches tall) with a 24" Finnex Fugeray on it for 4 hours on, 4 off, 4 more on (8 total). I dose a modified PPS pro formula (less nitrate, more phosphate, more micros) which is probably not correct. My phosphate is around 2-2.5 according to the API kit, and nitrate goes from 10-30 (but the API kit is so hard to read that that means very little).

I think I have a lack of CO2, causing me algae on my pogostemon erectus, as well as my anubias and alternanthera reineckii, even though all three grow fast.

I also dose 10 ml of metricide daily.

The algae appears to be BBA. There's also some green stuff, that's not hairy, on my crypts. Supposedly, GSA comes from low phosphate or low CO2, and BBA from high phosphate and low CO2. So in theory I have simply low CO2. Would you guys agree?

The level it has been at seems to affect the fish. They usually hover above the substrate, and don't swim in the open much. There are 12 tetras in this tank, by the way. They are all healthy though. It could also be that they don't have enough cover, are scared by me or other noises, or don't like the bright light.

I don't know what to do! I feel like my CO2 is too high and low at the same time! I'm gassing my fish but starving my plants!

What do I do? I don't have a drop checker, by the way.

 

[Fanflv]

Check for leaks around regulator with soapy water and you can check co2 levels with ph and water hardness
There are charts online (Google co2 level chart)


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[Fresh2o]

I can't answer all of your Qs but I'll try a few.
Get a bubble counter. Always a good idea to know how much CO2 you are dispensing. Some folks shoot for 1-2 bps; other use higher levels.
Get a check valve of you do not already have one. Some are integrated with the bubble counters.
Get a drop checker. Knowing how much CO2 is present is very important. It lets you gauge how much CO2 to use (by adjusting your bps). I use a Fluval DC because it is simple to use and read and comes with its own DC fluid (nothing the mix).
Put the regulator on a timer and run it for something like 7-8 hours. Ideally an hour before the photo period and an hour off before lights out. In your case with the split photoperiod, maybe set the regulator to come on at the end of the first photo period and off an hour before the second lights out.
Check your connections and make sure they are snug. You may have a leak. Use CO2 tubing if possible. Harder to work with because of its stiffness though. The gauge should not drop that fast.
I have a 24 oz paintball tank (cannot remember the brand at the moment) and an AquaTek premium regulator with paintball adaptor. The first fill lasted 4 months. Despite the gauge readying zero psi there was quite a bit of CO2 remaining in the tank.



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[Brookster123]

Fresh nailed it, you can't guess with this stuff alex.. the algae is another game.. I've got a clone tank going green like saint Patrick's day..

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[FishCr8zy]

I agree with everything fresh said as well. First problem I saw was the 15 hour co2 period and only 8 hours of light. Once the lights are off, the plants won't take in any more co2 so whatever co2 you inject is just sitting in the water going no where. Which may be why your fish are inactive. I would definitely get a drop checker and bubble counter. Those are cheap and essential.
My 24oz paintball tank has lasted almost a year without refill. Running at 1.5 bps.


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[Fishperson]

I agree with everything fresh said as well. First problem I saw was the 15 hour co2 period and only 8 hours of light. Once the lights are off, the plants won't take in any more co2 so whatever co2 you inject is just sitting in the water going no where. Which may be why your fish are inactive. I would definitely get a drop checker and bubble counter. Those are cheap and essential.
My 24oz paintball tank has lasted almost a year without refill. Running at 1.5 bps.


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I keep it on through the siesta period because I figure t can't hurt. I also come on 3 hours prior to the first photoperiod like recommended.

I find bubble counters mean very little to me. It doesn't tell me anything of value because I'll keep it going as fast as I need it to keep plants healthy anyway.

I do have a drop checker but I just don't have the 4 dkh fluid for it.

 

[aqua_chem]

I find bubble counters mean very little to me. It doesn't tell me anything of value because I'll keep it going as fast as I need it to keep plants healthy anyway.

And how fast is that? It seems odd that you would come on the forum looking for help with a suspected CO2 problem, and at the same time say that the part of the setup that tells you how much CO2 is going into the tank 'doesn't tell you anything of value'.

Ditto the above with a drop checker.

Unfortunately, unless someone has a crystal ball, there's no way we could possibly troubleshoot the tank without that required information.


For starters though, lets get some pictures of the algae you have, especially the green stuff. GSA can be phosphates, light, or CO2, but BBA is usually related to CO2, hygiene, and sometimes light (not phosphate).

 

[Fishperson]

And how fast is that? It seems odd that you would come on the forum looking for help with a suspected CO2 problem, and at the same time say that the part of the setup that tells you how much CO2 is going into the tank 'doesn't tell you anything of value'.

Ditto the above with a drop checker.

Unfortunately, unless someone has a crystal ball, there's no way we could possibly troubleshoot the tank without that required information.


For starters though, lets get some pictures of the algae you have, especially the green stuff. GSA can be phosphates, light, or CO2, but BBA is usually related to CO2, hygiene, and sometimes light (not phosphate).

I don't know how fast it is, if I did I wouldn't be here.

I concede that bubble counters do tell me one important thing, how much co2 is going in, but it doesn't say how much I'd diffused into the water.

I'll try the drop checker again I guess.

The issue, I suppose, is not how much goes in, but how much gets properly diffused.

I'll get some pictures up soon.

 

[Brookster123]

Haha, you answered your own question bubble counters are fun! Dcs are fun too, science style..

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[Fishperson]

Haha, you answered your own question bubble counters are fun! Dcs are fun too, science style..

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I sort of did I suppose, but I still have so many.

I'll post algae pics soon. Does anyone have any idea about this co2 tank? The solenoid clicks on when I plug it in, so that must be good, but the regulator never shows any pressure (input or output) and no co2 ever comes out.

No co2 today of course, and the fish are very active. *sigh*

Maybe I'm just imagining it though.

I'm going to start afresh this week/weekend. I'll be mixing new fertilizer (probably EI, any recommendations?), making 4 dkh fluid for the drop checker, a water change, etc.

Also, does anyone know how tolerant pogo erectus is to H2O2 or metricide dips/spot treatments?

Thanks for all the help, I really do appreciate it!

 

[Sk3lly]

The drop checker is a crucial piece of kit for when using co2. Lets you know when the co2 levels are at the ideal ppm but more importantly you can check the co2 distribution within the tank.

Once you get your drop checker up and running and showing lime in one location, try moving it elsewhere. If you show at blue then you know the co2 is not being distributed to the second location

3 main algae causes!

Lighting - duration/intensity

Co2 - inadequacy paired with higher lighting

Flow - got to get that co2 all over the tank


High levels of nutrients will not cause algae if you have lighting and co2 in check. Its a MYTH. You can run at 10ppm phosphate and have no ill effects.

Nutrient shortages will cause plant deficiencies which in turn can lead to algae.

Once you get the hang of co2 you can get rid of the drop checker and use your eyes. Algae - co2 low. Fish gasping - co2 high

Hope some of this is useful to you


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[Sk3lly]

I should also mention as i find it interesting.

I am also active on another forum mainly with British members. I joined seeing as i live in England it may be a better place to sell plants. Already paying off.

The interesting fact i have observed is the high tech experienced members dont use ultra powerful lights. They see high co2 as much more important. Still they get great growth, no algae and stunning tanks.

Ive witnessed and gone along with the American market for lights which seem to scream POWER. Trying to offer outrageous PAR data. Ive now come to believe these levels simply are not needed and consequently i witness far more algae threads on this forum.

As a result i now run my bml xb on 50% at peak time in my photoperiod whereas it used to be on 100%. Plants still growing the same but with even less algae


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[Brookster123]

I should also mention as i find it interesting.

I am also active on another forum mainly with British members. I joined seeing as i live in England it may be a better place to sell plants. Already paying off.

The interesting fact i have observed is the high tech experienced members dont use ultra powerful lights. They see high co2 as much more important. Still they get great growth, no algae and stunning tanks.

Ive witnessed and gone along with the American market for lights which seem to scream POWER. Trying to offer outrageous PAR data. Ive now come to believe these levels simply are not needed and consequently i witness far more algae threads on this forum.

As a result i now run my bml xb on 50% at peak time in my photoperiod whereas it used to be on 100%. Plants still growing the same but with even less algae


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That makes sense man, alot of sense..

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[PerfectDepth]

That makes sense man, alot of sense..

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Yeah, I agree. Lighting is the variable that's consistent and easiest to control, and if you back off a bit, you'll have a wider margin of error with your CO2 concentration. Whereas if your lighting is full bore, and say you don't notice that your diffuser is clogged or something else happens and CO2 drops... well we know what can happen.


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[aqua_chem]

I'll post algae pics soon. Does anyone have any idea about this co2 tank? The solenoid clicks on when I plug it in, so that must be good, but the regulator never shows any pressure (input or output) and no co2 ever comes out.

Sounds like your tank isn't open.

I concede that bubble counters do tell me one important thing, how much co2 is going in, but it doesn't say how much I'd diffused into the water.

True, an BPS is very variable between users. My BPS in Denver would be different from someone at sea level. Most important is that it's consistent with the same tank, so you can gauge your own levels.

Also, with most good diffusion methods, you should be approaching 100% efficiency with diffusion, so it's not that much of a guessing game in the end.

Also, does anyone know how tolerant pogo erectus is to H2O2 or metricide dips/spot treatments?

It's tolerant of both at reasonable doses. I've used 3x recommended Glu dosage and 4 ml/gal H2O2 on that very plant. It's also tolerated 50% H2O2 baths well enough.

 

[FishCr8zy]

I should also mention as i find it interesting.

I am also active on another forum mainly with British members. I joined seeing as i live in England it may be a better place to sell plants. Already paying off.

The interesting fact i have observed is the high tech experienced members dont use ultra powerful lights. They see high co2 as much more important. Still they get great growth, no algae and stunning tanks.

Ive witnessed and gone along with the American market for lights which seem to scream POWER. Trying to offer outrageous PAR data. Ive now come to believe these levels simply are not needed and consequently i witness far more algae threads on this forum.

As a result i now run my bml xb on 50% at peak time in my photoperiod whereas it used to be on 100%. Plants still growing the same but with even less algae


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Hmm never really thought of it like that. It make a lot of sense actually.


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[Fishperson]

I should also mention as i find it interesting.

I am also active on another forum mainly with British members. I joined seeing as i live in England it may be a better place to sell plants. Already paying off.

The interesting fact i have observed is the high tech experienced members dont use ultra powerful lights. They see high co2 as much more important. Still they get great growth, no algae and stunning tanks.

Ive witnessed and gone along with the American market for lights which seem to scream POWER. Trying to offer outrageous PAR data. Ive now come to believe these levels simply are not needed and consequently i witness far more algae threads on this forum.

As a result i now run my bml xb on 50% at peak time in my photoperiod whereas it used to be on 100%. Plants still growing the same but with even less algae


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That makes a lot of sense actually.

It's really based around lighting I guess. It sounds like as long as your lightning is at an adequate level AND is the limiting factor in the tank you probably won't get algae?

Thanks!

 

[Fishperson]

Sounds like your tank isn't open.





True, an BPS is very variable between users. My BPS in Denver would be different from someone at sea level. Most important is that it's consistent with the same tank, so you can gauge your own levels.



Also, with most good diffusion methods, you should be approaching 100% efficiency with diffusion, so it's not that much of a guessing game in the end.







It's tolerant of both at reasonable doses. I've used 3x recommended Glu dosage and 4 ml/gal H2O2 on that very plant. It's also tolerated 50% H2O2 baths well enough.

Thanks!

I need to spot treat it for sure, because the apse isn't impeding growth or anything yet, it just looks ugly.

I'll definitely do some spot treatments when I get home. I've tried both metricide and H2O2 (not together of course) and I find the H2O2 to be much more potent. I think I'll go with half a ml per gallon of that.

 

[aqua_chem]

It's really based around lighting I guess. It sounds like as long as your lightning is at an adequate level AND is the limiting factor in the tank you probably won't get algae?

That's the thinking of many people at the upper end of the spectrum that I've talked to. Makes sense in practice and theory. It's also the entire basis of EI.

 

[Sk3lly]

That makes a lot of sense actually.

It's really based around lighting I guess. It sounds like as long as your lightning is at an adequate level AND is the limiting factor in the tank you probably won't get algae?

Thanks!

Lighting is the easiest variable to control, yet is so often mismanaged


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