Deficiencies and toxicities of plant nutrients.

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Delapool said:
I have been still reading and was thinking I can remember reading on different plants but might be useful to have some bullet points on what to look for in micro toxicity that was seen? I did a quick look and it seems to affect new growth?

I've also wondered if a plant with roots will be better at managing nutrient uptake compared to say a fresh cut stem plant?
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Someone quoted that the fresh growing root was fine in the water column (after copious amounts of water charges) but when the root reached the substrate (I think it was eco) it turned brown.

There are too many things that happened to my plants that I'd be here forever haha. I did post lots of pictures though between here and my thread.

Pogostemon stellatus - didn't grow for weeks then suddenly the stem snapped at the top with the current.

Pogostemon erectus - didn't grow for weeks. 5 weeks maybe more it was the same height even though I could see it's roots at the bottom of the tank in the deepest part of the substrate. Lower leaves small very droopy and algae infested. Still have this plant. It's near the top of the tank after detox.

Pogostemon heferi - outer edge leaves brown and melting away until it caught up with the new leaves in the centre. Still have this plant it's green again although growing slower than before.

Rotala wallichii - most sensitive, turned brown and looked like a burnt matchstick. On my third lot of this plants. Majority of it is dead and the leaves get smaller and smaller as it grows so until it catches up with new growth and kills it. BUT I see I new pink stem sprouting from the middle of another stem. It's beautiful gonna keep this plant and see what happens.

Rotala macrandra- twisted and distorted leaves in all directions, doesn't grow. Still showing sign of toxicity but it's starting to grow out of it. Underside of new leaves are a lovely pink now although the tops are almost white. I can't say if this is normal for the variety I have because I have never seen it grow healthily. Not as sensitive as wallichii but not resistant.

Lagenandra meebodi - old leaves turned yellow around the edges and became infested with GSA. Recovers well and grows so much faster after detox. My favourite plant so far.

Crypt something or other - leaves stunt to a quarter of the normal size and turn a mustard yellow rather than a burgundy. New leaves spouting normally now but it stopped sending new leaves for a while.

AR and AR mini - very sensitive. Old leaves go bronze and are twisted and brittle. I suspect most people have this problem with AR. New leaves look pinker and straighter but AR sending pinker straighter leaves for two thirds then the tip is black and twisted. Will take time but this plant will recover and I will take picture of before and after.

Milfoil - no symptoms and grows like a weed.

Dwarf hair grass - doesn't grow and blades turn brown. New shoots are wavy instead of straight. Not tried since.

Monte Carlo - edges of leaves turn brown and old leave melt away and develop hair algae. Stems turn brown and grow straight up. Doesn't send anchoring roots. New growth is green although slightly pale but I can see fresh green stems all over now. I expect a full carpet soon after months of trouble with this plant.

Hygrophila pinnatifida- edges of leaves turn brown and develop small pinholes in leaves despite high K levels. New leaves growing well. No holes whatsoever.

Dwarf sag - couldn't see any issues with this plant. Seemed to tolerate quite well.

Lilaeopsis - turn pale, didn't grow and developed hair algae. Removed the plant.

Crypt parva - edges of leaves turn brown then older leaves develop algae. Leaves stay small. New leaves are green and algae free.

Christmas moss - melted away

Ive tried more but can't remembers at the moment.

I'll post some pics if I can of the current plants.
 
When these plants were at there worst point. What was par, ph, gh/kh, temp,co2 ppm at the middle of photo period?
 
flchamp89 said:
When these plants were at there worst point. What was par, ph, gh/kh, temp,co2 ppm at the middle of photo period?
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Can't remember really.

Par was high. No accurate way of measuring
PH 7.6 no accurate way of measuring
GH 6 no accurate way of measuring
Kh 3 no accurate way of measuring
Temp 24-25
Co2 no accurate way of measuring
 
You lost me on no way to accurately measure lol but you are real soft huh
 
I've been so busy at work. 80 hrs week. I was able to get into our data base and found old articles of some scientific research on aquatic plants. A couple may be interesting yet very dated. We believe that many terrestrial plants are negatively affected by manicured trimming practices. Disease, insect, and shorten life span have been documented. Many plants with less care (nutrients/maintenance) displayed overall better health. We do have some info on rotala. I went through a period where I thought this was the greatest stem ever. I wasn't trimming. All my problems occur after trimming. I know ive seen this plant grow in massive mats bent over at surface. Looking like a floating plant from a distance. Im convinced it loves phosphorus. Im wondering about the hard vs soft plant theory all the time.

I also did some research months ago on what some call a marsh variety of the rotundi cultivar. I have both kinds in my tank. The emersed ones do not seem to change leaf structure like were used to in other plants.

Im leaning towards idea this is a low maintenance weed. No trim no nutrients. If you want the red im guessing 50 par give or take gets you there. Look at the great color in my spec iii tank compared to my 10g. Those were cuttings in bad shape. They have gotten next to nothing in the spec tank.
 
Interesting observations this week. Not sure what to make of them yet. But here's what I did and what happened this week.

This week was my second week of dosing of 30ppm cal and 15ppm mg. I also only dosed micro's once this week just to see what the effects would be on the tank. The extra 15ppm ca and 10ppm mg had no effect at all to my plants and didn't help any issues I had.

This is where it gets interesting. After not dosing macros by the end of the week I was seeing signs of what I used to see. These include, dull coloration, curling of leaves, cupping of leaves, dark lines in old growth of the ludwigi. These are the same Symptoms of what I saw when I had a toxicity issue. I haven't dosed micro's for over 2 months now. However I have the soil and red clay powder as a substrate.

I have no idea what to make of this. Either dosing of macros blocks the toxicity of micro's or stops plants from taking up micro's. Could the micro issue in fact a be macro issue?
 
Bert2oo1 said:
Interesting observations this week. Not sure what to make of them yet. But here's what I did and what happened this week.

This week was my second week of dosing of 30ppm cal and 15ppm mg. I also only dosed micro's once this week just to see what the effects would be on the tank. The extra 15ppm ca and 10ppm mg had no effect at all to my plants and didn't help any issues I had.

This is where it gets interesting. After not dosing macros by the end of the week I was seeing signs of what I used to see. These include, dull coloration, curling of leaves, cupping of leaves, dark lines in old growth of the ludwigi. These are the same Symptoms of what I saw when I had a toxicity issue. I haven't dosed micro's for over 2 months now. However I have the soil and red clay powder as a substrate.

I have no idea what to make of this. Either dosing of macros blocks the toxicity of micro's or stops plants from taking up micro's. Could the micro issue in fact a be macro issue?
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It stops the plants taking up the micros. I shouldn't have told you to stop dosing macros. That's my fault. Turning your light back up may help too.
 
I started reading through toxicity websites again to try and find a common link to identify toxicity. Of which there wasn't really. But it seemed that new growth and plant vigor should be affected? And possibly browning off on the plant eg stem base / roots, leaf tips, new growth.

The trouble is I'm wondering if this is more an element ratio issue eg soft water (deficient) may can cause micro ferts over-abundance (toxicity). And which is easier to fix.

Idk, about low CO2 and high PAR. This is only from my tank:

High light causes algae.

Insufficient / unstable / low CO2 helps algae, not plants.

When I dose too much iron specifically or micro-ferts (I assume due to Fe but maybe something else), on fine-leaf plants like foxtail I'll see new growth brown off and in bad cases the growth will stall. This seems to be a toxicity issue to me. It tends to be when I dose too much at once or over several days.

Hygro seems to a special case all to itself. Every other plant will be fine and this will have the classic K-short issues of holes in lower leaves while new growth is going well. Increase K and my problems go away. But I don't know if this is as the plant simply needs more K or there is a toxicity issue meaning the plant needs more K. (At which point it gets too complicated).

Green Spot Algae - this has made a come back so I'm increasing phosphate back up to several ppm which seemed to help before. Testing that theory again that GSA goes as phosphate increases. No idea why this seems to work. Must be a toxicity issue somewhere if it is I assume. Maybe the phosphate reacts with other elements and reduces element mobility. It would be interesting if people that dose iron and phosphate (I think it was) and get a cloudy tank, if that has any impact on algae or plants.

Some thoughts anyways. I do feel that over here sometimes that EI sometimes gets treated like a complete system of dose and forget without even any allowance for new plants / tank jungle. I like the idea that EI presents of providing all elements in abundance (ie phosphate is OK compared to original PMDD), if the estimate system isn't working and needs tweaking for certain setups that seems fine with me.
 
Softer water definitely presents more issues but it can happen in hard water too. Guess it depends how much you dose. It wasn't just plants it was killing though. Much worse, fish, shrimp etc.

It's usually browning, stunting, melting. Can be a whole host of symptoms. Have a look at this thread.

These are sure fire toxicities but the guy fails to acknowledge them. Blames all the other usual things that have had us all in a twist at some point. Eventually he tears the tank down with no resolution.

http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr-report/aquascaping/229287-well-rooted-mf-dennis-s-tank/page2

I'm still having some issues but I'm getting there. Rotala macrandra is finally turning pink. Some leaves still twisted though

Image1493581684.894588.jpg

I've turned the light up now to about 120 PAR. This is what D.Walstad cited as optimum for most aquatic plants. Monte Carlo although still rough looks best it has done for a long time.

Here is tox on my lagenandra meeboldii. Notice the little leaf at the bottom?

Image1493581815.924103.jpg

Small leaves on the crypt.

Image1493581896.327302.jpg

It's tough to explain it but when you get used to the symptoms you can't mistake them. It's gathering some serious wind now and soon you won't be able to ignore it and I eventually suspect our methods will change once more.

I believe nutrient ratios come in to play but essentially it's what we are dosing. Even if you think you are dosing low. It's probably still too much.

My issue now is CEC and what my substrate has adsorbed.

Phosphate reacting and precipitating nutrients is one theory for protection.

I get more GDA with the higher light but i dosed EI macros yesterday after a water change. Perhaps there is some correlation? Not just synthetic Fertilisers. I think I need to change more water because I've been feeding more heavily. I think this is still causing issues I.e substrate CEC.

I've never seen my ottos so happy, all my fish and shrimp for that matter. I'm setting my co2 to come with the lights as I'm starting to see things in a slightly different light. Previously it would be 3 hours before, then two and now one. I see no difference.

All the information I have compiled is already out there. There's so much of it now. It's been going on on TPT for about 4 years as well as barreport, APC, UKAPS.
 
I must say that this has been the most interesting and CIVIL dialog I've seen on this subject. I stopped going to the other 'snotty' site to discuss this very topic being that it was CONSTANTLY a CO2 issue........guess what, my CO2 is just fine thank you ! Anyone that went against that theory was shot with arrows......How is anyone going to learn in that environment ? There was one guy on 'our' side, but it seemes like he has a personal grudge/vendetta against the top dog of the site and it was brutal to read. Granted, he comes across as a total prick, but a LOT of what he said was exactly what I was experiencing. My tanks were NOT a CO2 issue. I kept the same Co2, same Lighting, Same maintenance schedule, everything stayed the same, EXCEPT dropping the csm+b dosing. That tells me all I need to know.
So the long and short of it all is that it's been very refreshign seeing this topic discussed here like adults and not a bunch of kids that take there ball home if they don't get what they want....

THANK YOU ADULTS !!!
 
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Like I mentioned before lots of good information in here and good links and I for one am learning a lot. Some things I have picked up on and would recomend especially for those that have these specific toxicity issues that are very apparent even though some still turn away from no matter how clear it truly is.

Dump any high CEC substrate you are using. Like eco complete, or whatever it is that has a hig cec. It will obviously end up causing an issue absorbing all the toxities and never releasing them. I for one am glad I never went with a high CEC substrate. I use gravel in my 60 and BDBS in my 20.

Get a TDS meter. This will allow you to at least get an idea when the levels are building up to know when to do a water change. Try and use this and base your dosing off of, should give you a good idea when what you are dosing is just not being used and is just building up causing toxicities.

Dose base off of need. For example check nitrate and phosphate level. If for example you are at 3ppm phosphate and 30ppm nitrate then skip dosing macros. Assuming your K is good. In fact today I skipped macros because those are my exact levels and I know my K is good because I used gh booster the other day.

If you know your nitrates and phosphates are getting high then you can surely assume that say dosing the same percentage of micros must also be building up. Try and dose both macros and micros based off of need again and not just full and assume will all get used up.

For example if you know your nitrates and phosphates are high and did not need to dose macros then assume that most likely your micros also will already have a high level and should not need. Again we can assume off of tds levels and nitrates and phosphates. I know its not perfect but at least should give us an idea. Also if say your macro and micro intake has been say half of what ei says it should be than assume that your Ca and Mg levels should also be low. If you are say having to use full ei levels than assume that your Ca and Mg intake by plants will also be high so most likely 15ppm Ca and 5ppm Mg may not be enough. Just my obvservation

The thing is no number is set in stone each tank uptake and toxicity will be different and its up to use to catch it and fix if we can. We have to be able to see the signs and adjust accordingly.

The problem is that Aquatic plants knowledge still has a long way to go and seems that us the hobbyist are the ones that have to test and figure this out which is what we are having to do. There is just too little definitive information out there. We cannot just assume because something works with some else's tank that it will work with ours. I know I have learned that in the short time I have been into this. So keep it going I love learning.
 
mandoborg said:
I must say that this has been the most interesting and CIVIL dialog I've seen on this subject. I stopped going to the other 'snotty' site to discuss this very topic being that it was CONSTANTLY a CO2 issue........guess what, my CO2 is just fine thank you ! Anyone that went against that theory was shot with arrows......How is anyone going to learn in that environment ? There was one guy on 'our' side, but it seemes like he has a personal grudge/vendetta against the top dog of the site and it was brutal to read. Granted, he comes across as a total prick, but a LOT of what he said was exactly what I was experiencing. My tanks were NOT a CO2 issue. I kept the same Co2, same Lighting, Same maintenance schedule, everything stayed the same, EXCEPT dropping the csm+b dosing. That tells me all I need to know.
So the long and short of it all is that it's been very refreshign seeing this topic discussed here like adults and not a bunch of kids that take there ball home if they don't get what they want....

THANK YOU ADULTS !!!
Click to expand...


I agree. There's not many egos here on AA. It's the best forum around for that simple reason.

Having said that, the person you are talking about is actually very helpful and always was in my opinion. At least he was when I contacted him. If you go back 4 years or so he was a Barreport moderator and had his fair share of tank issues. Same rationale as everyone else. Then when the 'Tox train' (as all the Barr disciples used to refer to it as) started moving he and a few others were hit with pretty scathing attacks and his claims were met with great opposition from Mr Barr himself. Because Tom Barr never saw these issues that meant it wasn't true but it was later discovered that Barr was only dosing a third of EI micros and was an avid water changer. Anyway I digress. There is a reason he comes across the way he does and I think most would be the same having had to put up with the kind of retorts he did. He had his moderator status rescinded on the Barreport and doesn't frequent the forums as much.
 
**important notice**

For PPS-Pro users.

In November 2016 the mixing instructions for the micro nutrients were changed.

The old instructions were 40g CSM+B in 500ml of water at 1ml dose per 10 gallons daily. This would give you.

IMG_2712.JPG

The new instructions are

28.6g CSM+B in to 500ml of water at 0.1ml per 10 gallons daily. This will give you.

IMG_2711.JPG

Notice any difference? I feel that this should be much better to prevent issues and the ferts should last longer.

Thanks GLA.
 
Found some interesting info from a guy on a Facebook group I'm in, apparently marble chips can be used as abit of a ca and mg buffer.

As the water becomes acidic due to the ph swing caused by the co2 it dissolves little bits of the marble and it releases MG and CA.

Has been a great help for a few people it seems. Combats leaf curl and burning. I'll be trying this once I find out where to get some marble lol

I'll keep u guys posted!
 
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