dwarf hair grass is not growing

[mmohamma]

Hi everyone,

I aqua-escaped a 20G long tank with dwarf hair grass. I thought this plant would carpet and grow "quickly" based on what I heard from my LFS. But after 2 months, the grass is not really growing, and I'm getting some brown algae on some of them.

can anyone suggest any ideas?

here is some info:

Tank: 20G long
CO2 injection
light is Fluval 24" with remote control. I've reduced the light intensity to 50% in hope to reduce the algae in the center
residents: Amano shrimp, Harlequin Rasboras and rummy nose tetras
No additional fertilizers.

I live in Denver CO and the avg PH is around 7.6 and the fish are happy.

 

[goatnad]

I would think its an issue of nutrients. What substrate are you using? Anything that's nutrient rich? If not then add some root tabs under the grass. Another thing could be the large clumps you planted. With hairgrass you want to break it up into small portions. 10-20 blades of grass per clump. This way your grass isn't fighting for nutrients all in the same tiny spot.

Someone I just spoke to said root tabs he owned had copper in them so make sure to check the ingredients. Copper is bad for your shrimp and snails if you have them.

 

[mmohamma]

I would think its an issue of nutrients. What substrate are you using? Anything that's nutrient rich?

Eco-Complete.

 

[ZxC]

You're starving the plants with only what the fish are providing. Higher light + CO2 is driving plant growth too hard/fast without any nutrients.

Think of an engine:

Light = Throttle
CO2 = Air
Nutrients = Fuel

What happens when you go full throttle? (higher light) ..... You need more fuel and air or else the engine will not run. You've got the throttle opened up, you've got the air, but you don't have any fuel

Sorry to burst the bubble on Eco-Complete, but it is completely inert, very low CEC, and contains 0 nutrients and 0 benefits for plants.

 

[mmohamma]

hmm... Interesting.

I searched for some online reviews of the product and they've all be very good.
Eco-Complete Substrate Review • Land of Fish
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/29-substrate/147463-eco-complete.html
of course I'm talking about EC for planted tanks. I'm not gonna spend a lot of money on testing the soil by a chemist, but the label on the back claims that it's very nutrient.

what would you recommend? I have a 65G tank which I'm planning to recycle it in May after this tank (20G) is successful and stable.

 

[King Fisher]

hmm... Interesting.

I searched for some online reviews of the product and they've all be very good.
Eco-Complete Substrate Review • Land of Fish
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/29-substrate/147463-eco-complete.html
of course I'm talking about EC for planted tanks. I'm not gonna spend a lot of money on testing the soil by a chemist, but the label on the back claims that it's very nutrient.

what would you recommend? I have a 65G tank which I'm planning to recycle it in May after this tank (20G) is successful and stable.

Have Z show you his tanks.

 

[ZxC]

hmm... Interesting.

I searched for some online reviews of the product and they've all be very good.
Eco-Complete Substrate Review • Land of Fish
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/29-substrate/147463-eco-complete.html
of course I'm talking about EC for planted tanks. I'm not gonna spend a lot of money on testing the soil by a chemist, but the label on the back claims that it's very nutrient.

what would you recommend? I have a 65G tank which I'm planning to recycle it in May after this tank (20G) is successful and stable.

While the reviews are likely mostly positive, that doesn't change the fact that the substrate is inert. It contains very few nutrients for plants, only a small, trace amount of micro nutrients which plants need very little of. The material is made up of these compounds - but it does not break down meaning the plants cannot utilize them. They stay completely in tact within the aquarium, and are completely unavailable to the plant.

Now, the bacteria packets are of good benefit, but are not necessary. So, back to my original point. You are driving plant growth quite hard / fast with higher light and CO2. With what little nutrients you are supplying them, the plants cannot keep up. They are starving of virtually all 14 nutrients required for proper, healthy growth.

Fortunately, we can easily supply all of these for very little money.

KNO3
KH2PO4
K2SO4
CSM+B
DTPA Iron 11% (if your pH is above 6.5).

That will cover everything you need. Depending on your tap water, you may want to boost general hardness (Calcium + Magnesium sum). This is also very cheap.

MgSO4 - Epsom salt
CaSO4 - Gypsum

Research EI dosing, PPS-Pro dosing, gH boosting for some good information.

Or, I can recommend some successful levels that many planted tankers are using with great success.

For example, with a 50-70% weekly water change:

NO3 - Dose KNO3 to reach 25ppm
PO4 - Dose KH2PO4 to reach 6ppm
K - Dose K2SO4 to reach 25ppm (KH2PO4 and KNO3 will contribute to this as well)
CSM+B (with additional DTPA 11% Iron if needed) Target 0.2ppm Fe 3 x weekly - Say Mon, Wed, Fri. for example
CaSO4 - Target 15ppm Ca above tapwater readings
MgSO4 - Target 7.5ppm Mg above tapwater readings

Dosing all of this is easy, cheap and will cover all your bases. You can build up some root tabs, do not buy Flourish,build your own with Osmocote+ and size 00 gel capsules. Place under larger rooted plants every 2-3 months, or as needed.

Now, if you are setting up a new tank, I would use come black diamond brand blasting sand, or pool filter sand if you want a light color. Rinse it well, and use enough for 2-3" of depth across the tank. More if you want some slopes. You can mix in your current Eco-Complete if you want a more textured look. Sand is 1000x's easier to plant into than eco-complete, the two sands I recommended are large enough to not be easily disturbed, and they are nice and clean to work with.

For sake of transparency, here is my old 65 gallon tank using Eco-Complete:

 

[mmohamma]

First of all, Thank you for the thorough explanation! Let me play the devil's advocate, because I'm very good at it since I've tried so many things by now.

So bottom line, just because the substrate is made of iron, it doesn't mean the plants can use it as nutrients. it needs to be a in a soluble format. Also, if I read between the lines, none of the substrates that are sold in LFSs have any value other than their looks and support for root growth. If EC which comes with high recommendations for planted tank is not good enough, then what is?

I have some questions on your recommendations.

1) Osmocote Plus has copper. Is it safe the fish and shrimps? Also, doesn't hair grass gets its nutrients from the water column instead of roots. How would it help?
2) Nitrates at levels of 25 ppm, is it safe for fish? doesn't Nitrate create algae blooms?
3) I got Aqua Vitro products a while ago for K2O, and P2O5 and N. Did I burn money or should I use it?
4) Assuming that I make changes and start supplementing my tank, how fast will the hair grass carpet? is it measured in days, weeks, months, or years?
5) Right now, I change 25% of water twice per week to reduce the algae. Even a day after, I see algae build up on the glass! what else can I do?

Thank you all,

p.s. Beautiful Tanks

 

[ZxC]

First of all, Thank you for the thorough explanation! Let me play the devil's advocate, because I'm very good at it since I've tried so many things by now.

So bottom line, just because the substrate is made of iron, it doesn't mean the plants can use it as nutrients. it needs to be a in a soluble format. Also, if I read between the lines, none of the substrates that are sold in LFSs have any value other than their looks and support for root growth. If EC which comes with high recommendations for planted tank is not good enough, then what is?

The only "planted tank" substrates of value are the active substrates such as ADA aqua soil. They actually contain nutrients, have a high CEC meaning they can "store" nutrients from the water column, and they buffer pH down below 7 to allow plants more access to nutrients (a pH of 6.5-7.0 is where most nutrients are in a plant-available form)

Now, completely inert substrates such as eco-complete, flourite etc etc are still "good" for roots and all, but I find sand's to be just as effective, but better because sand is easy to plant into, easy to clean and looks really sharp

I have some questions on your recommendations.

1) Osmocote Plus has copper. Is it safe the fish and shrimps? Also, doesn't hair grass gets its nutrients from the water column instead of roots. How would it help?

It is safe. Obviously do not go over board with them Hair grass, or any plant for that matter, will get their nutrients from wherever they can. The whole "water column feeder vs root feeder" debate is a pure myth. Now, for hairgrass only I would not use root tabs, dosing the water is 100% sufficient.

2) Nitrates at levels of 25 ppm, is it safe for fish? doesn't Nitrate create algae blooms?

My tank currently sees doses of 30+ppm of NO3 and an additional 10ppm or so from livestock, 20-25ppm doses is perfectly safe. No, NO3 does not cause algae, there is no evidence I have seen that claims NO3 causes algae.

3) I got Aqua Vitro products a while ago for K2O, and P2O5 and N. Did I burn money or should I use it?

You can absolutely use those fertilizers. Check out https://rotalabutterfly.com/nutrient-calculator.php and punch in your numbers to determine how much you would have to dose to reach a certain ppm. Play around with that calculator. It will help show you what you are actually dosing.

4) Assuming that I make changes and start supplementing my tank, how fast will the hair grass carpet? is it measured in days, weeks, months, or years?

weeks - months typically. You can aid the process by spreading out the clumps of grass to allow for faster carpeting.

5) Right now, I change 25% of water twice per week to reduce the algae. Even a day after, I see algae build up on the glass! what else can I do?

A single 50% may be a better option:
40ppm NO3 + 25% water change = 30ppm NO3
35ppm NO3 + 25% water change = 26ppm NO3

40ppm NO3 + 50% water change = 20ppm NO3

See the difference....

For algae I typically recommend:

Reduce lighting to 5-6 hours a day.
Clean filters weekly in old tank water to remove excess organics.
Clean substrate of all decaying organic matter, clean away all algae covered plants and leaves, clean out all dying plants and manual remove as much algae as possible.
Supply plants with what they need. Light, CO2, nutrients. Healthy plants do not promote algae growth, struggling plants are algae magnets.
Use Flourish Excel / Metricide 14 daily at a high dose to aid in algae suppression.
Use H2O2 to spot treat bad areas of algae. Research this prior to doing so
Consider a blackout period.

Thank you all,

p.s. Beautiful Tanks

thank you, that tank is long gone but was fun when I had it

see bold

 

[Fresh2o]

I used EC when I had a Planted tank and had good luck with it. But the plants would not be where they are at without ample CO2, decent lighting, and daily ferts (PPS-Pro). So perhaps I gave EC a bit more credit than it deserved. But at the time it was $9 a bag so I could not pass on it. Yes, it is a pain the plant smaller plants in. I did supplement it with various root pellets. Never vacuumed; years of fish poo in there. Tried different carpet plants but never grass types.
Makes me wonder how things would have gone if I used and ADA or Brightwell product. Here is a montage pic of the tank from 2015-2017:

 

[ZxC]

At $9 it would have been worth looking into, but where I live it's touching up on $40 per bag.... for that price I can put a sand substrate into a 90 gallon for the same price as eco-comoplete into a 20 gallon...

I let mine get full of crud as well.

 

[Fresh2o]

I’ve seen it for $29-39 locally elsewhere; the sale was limited to a few months back in 2012/2013. Right now it’s all sitting in a bin in the garage as I am no longer running any rooted planted tanks anymore.