EI in a planted community tank: A NEWB's quest for answers

[wademan]

I got the planted tank bug back and started hiding out in private places reading planted tank info for hours each night. My dream at the moment is a 55-75 gallon planted community tank with clown loaches, yoyo loaches, tiger barbs and whatever else catches my fancy. Money is no issue, it is the knowledge to do this right the first time that I am lacking. I have a couple of questions that I have come across so far that need to be addressed before I dig deeper into this project.

1. Ferts at first were scary. After reading the article on EI I now feel like this planted tank idea is very do-able. My concern was that the examples he uses in the article refer to planted tanks with low fish amounts. Can the EI approach to ferting be used in planted community tanks? Are 50% weekly water changes and high fert concentrations going to keep any fish from being in peak health?

2. When setting up a tank like this is it best to start with the plants and let them cycle the tank, then slowly add fish, or can it all be done at once?

3. I am considering starting a thread dedicated to my 'journey' if you want to call it that towards this dream tank. You guys think that would be a good idea? I thought that it would give people similar to my situation (a.k.a NEWBs) a 'guide' of what needs to be done and what things to think about when deciding to do a planted tank of this size, along with write ups about all of the steps I take along the way.

There is so much knowledge here it is insane! Great site.

 

[Zezmo]

Can the EI approach to ferting be used in planted community tanks?

Absolutely. They make better communities. The plants offer many hiding places and reduce aggression issues.

Are 50% weekly water changes and high fert concentrations going to keep any fish from being in peak health?

The Fert concentrations recommended by EI are not detrimental to Fish and Inverts. There are more issues of what animals are detrimental to the plants. You will find that fish who get 50% weekly water changes, and live in the oxygen rich natural environment of planted tank, will thrive. They will show more and bolder colors, and breed more readily. Also, sickness and disease are less common in such a thriving environment.

When setting up a tank like this is it best to start with the plants and let them cycle the tank, then slowly add fish, or can it all be done at once?

If you have no existing tanks, with old gravel, and old filters from which you can seed the bio filter. Then you should read up on cycling a tank, and then follow one of the fish less methods. You can put plants in right away. Plants. lights, EI, CO2 all from from day 1.

If you go to the aquascaping section of this forum there are many posts with step by stem journals of various tanks.

 

[rkilling1]

If you have no existing tanks, with old gravel, and old filters from which you can seed the bio filter. Then you should read up on cycling a tank, and then follow one of the fish less methods. You can put plants in right away. Plants. lights, EI, CO2 all from from day 1.

Fishless cycling with ammonia and live plants is a recipe for algae. Ammonia is the number one cause of algal blooms. Adding more ammonia will only fuel more problems. Fishless cycling is best done prior to adding plants, or following a method called silent cycling where the tank is cycled with fish and no ammonia or nitrite is ever detectable.

A note: if tyou insist on doing fishless cycling, something I think it very bad for aquarist to bother with as a principle and in theory, that holds for all tanks, regardless of plants or not, simply place the filter in a bucket with NH3 for 3 weeks, add 10ppm of NH3 and leave it and add more say 5ppm each week, at the end of 3 weeks. also, add some dirt, yes, plain old dirt.

No need to add NH3 to your tank.
There are several ways to get around the FC foolishness.

1. Add mulm, this seeds the new tank with the dirt(mulm) from the sand when you vacuum deeply. This adds precisely what is missing from a new tank's gravel. The same deal is applied to a filter, take the dirt from the sponges and add to the new filter's intake.

Again, this adds precisely what is missing from a new tank that is present in a old tank that's well established.

Mulm is free. Most aquarist have friends in the hobby, local aquarium society members etc. A few folks live near a LFS, they are generally willing to give you some of their wet dirt
Mulm also provides a source of carbonm, the reduced kind bacteria need tio growm, they do not grow on NH3 alone, they also need other nutrients.

2. Zeolite. Removes the NH3 and turns into bio media after it's spent.

3. Plants. Directly removes the NH3.
Can place in a filter like refugiums in salt water tanks, plant filters in a sump, growing out the back of the filter etc.

4. Be sensible in stocking your fish!!

Jeeze.............if folks did this no one would ever need FC.
We somehow managed to breed discus and many species and keep them for many years, set up tank after tank at the LFS's for decades without Fishless cycling.

some how we managed to barely eek by, Come on..........
Both ways uphill in the snow barefoot..........

It's downright silly to consider this method and it's caused more issues for new folks that you can shake a stick at, killed folks 's fish that added them too soon, not because of the fish waste, but the left overs from FC, folks spend $$ on test kits etc instead of douign routine maintainence, things/habits that will provide a long term solution and save them money in the future.

Steve's a nice guy, I'm a lot more crotchety, but after helping folks at LFS back in 1970's till today at many different levels, I see these methods come and go, this one needs to go if you ask me, I can support my arguements and experineced folks can see the flaws in FC, newer folks ask why bother?

To prevent you same folks from making the same mistakes and so that you help others so we do not make the same mistakes and promote the same myths over and over and over again.

It's good to learn from experience, as long as it's not your own.

Grow plants, do common sense routines, load fish correctly, be reasonable in your stocking levels, do large frequent water changes.

Basically care more about your fish/plants and don't get lost in micro managing the test kits/NH4 dosing etc.

It's not as hard to do and provides better results over time.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[hashbaz]

There are lots of philosophies on how to start a planted tank. The "safest" way would be to do a fishless cycle (no lights) and then put the fish, plants, ferts, lights etc in all at once.

Others will do a silent cycle where they start by just adding everything all at once. The plants will keep the ammonia at low levels while the bacteria colonies get established. In this way, your tank cycles but without anything ever reaching harmful or even measureable levels (please note that this only works starting with high light and fast growing plants).

My philosophy is to start with existing filter media and add every everything all at once, and not worry.

 

[Plantbrain]

Well take a 75 gallon tank,
I'd get a set of 4 t5's and run mainly just 2 of them 10 hours with maybe a 3 hour burst of all midday.

Design wise, a pack of wood much like the reef folks do built up along the back wall.

I'd use white silica sand for the front.
Lots of Anubias, Narrow leaf Java fern, Bolbitus, and some Crypt spiralis etc in the back. Most of the plants will be attached to the wood.

Loaches will love all the wood and plants to hide in.

I'd use 2 good size cansiter filters, at about 300gph each, one on each end of the tank.
I'd use 2 Rhinox diffuser(and you will need a 2 needle valve manifold also), say 2000's at each end right under the outflow from the filters blasting the mist downward all over the tank.

Some nice dark rocks can shore up the wood better, and you can wrap the rocks in Xmas moss etc if you want also.

If you have a tank now, take the Bio media from there and squeeze it into the new filters, or use FC and add NH3 to a bucket, some old tank water ans run the filters for 2 weeks on the bucket water with NH3.

That way you can use the FC but never have any NH3 in your tank.
I do not do this step nor would ever personally, but that's me and I've just never had any issues with cyclying.

50% water changes is a likely good reason.
You can add activated carbon, Zeolite etc also and bypass any need for cycling a tank also.

I think that is much easier and water changes teach folks a lot more than any of that.

If you run the tank at low light with the T5's, then you'll not need much ferts, maybe 1/2 the suggested amounts at most for EI.

Crank the CO2.

Have some decent surface movement also, you can always add a bit more CO2 later.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[maxwell1295]

Interesting, I've been using the mulm/dirty filter squeeze method to seed my new filters for a while now. That seems to owrk just as well and swapping out media from established tanks. It's pretty much an instant cycle when done that way...

 

[Zezmo]

1. Add mulm, this seeds the new tank with the dirt(mulm) from the sand when you vacuum deeply. This adds precisely what is missing from a new tank's gravel. The same deal is applied to a filter, take the dirt from the sponges and add to the new filter's intake.

- Tom Barr

If you have no existing tanks, with old gravel, and old filters from which you can seed the bio filter. Then you should read up on cycling a tank, and then follow one of the fish less methods.

- Zezmo

If you have mulm to use to begin with, then hech yah go silent cycle method..that is certainly what I use.

 

[wademan]

Cool thats what I wanted to hear. The quest begins.....

 

[Plantbrain]

Interesting, I've been using the mulm/dirty filter squeeze method to seed my new filters for a while now. That seems to owrk just as well and swapping out media from established tanks. It's pretty much an instant cycle when done that way...

Yes, this is how us "old timers" manged to eek by in the past
Water changes, activated carbon, zeolite etc, plants etc, all these remove any need to cycle a tank.

I find it a joke that folks carry on about it like they do.

The above are far better solutions that adding pollutants to your tank and testing and not having any fish for 3 weeks.
Anyway, you can cycle a filter just fine in a bucket and add NH3 to the bucket water if you want to cycle a filter etc.



Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Cinder]

Just a comment from the fish's perspective: You are doing such a great job researching first that I'm sure you will also research the fish you bring home. Make sure they fit your tank size (Clown loaches do not by the way - they need a minimum 120 gln. tank) and that all fish are compatible. Good luck - have fun!

 

[wademan]

(Clown loaches do not by the way - they need a minimum 120 gln. tank)

Dang really... everyone seems to have them and they are so cool. Thanks for the heads up.