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Old 06-16-2013, 03:05 AM   #1
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Flourishing Excel in a planted Tank

Hi,

I would like to get your opinion on usage of Seachem Flourishing Excel in a planted tank.

I have heard its a good alternative for Co2 injection but its only 25% effective as in its gas format.

Also that overdosing is quit dangerous and can melt some plants like Vals & Alodea . Some shrimps are also very sensitive to overdosing it.

My main concern would be safety of usage in long terms.

Since the carbon dioxide is already broken down for the plants, does it mean that the plants don't produce O2 for my fish in their regular photosynthesis ? Would I need to aerate the tank to compensate on that ?

Thanks in advance,

David
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Old 06-16-2013, 10:00 AM   #2
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Plant Ferts

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbtars View Post
Hi,

I would like to get your opinion on usage of Seachem Flourishing Excel in a planted tank.

I have heard its a good alternative for Co2 injection but its only 25% effective as in its gas format.

Also that overdosing is quit dangerous and can melt some plants like Vals & Alodea . Some shrimps are also very sensitive to overdosing it.

My main concern would be safety of usage in long terms.

Since the carbon dioxide is already broken down for the plants, does it mean that the plants don't produce O2 for my fish in their regular photosynthesis ? Would I need to aerate the tank to compensate on that ?

Thanks in advance,

David
Hello Dave...

The industrial form of carbon called "Gluteraldehyde" is supposedly damaging to Vallisneria, mosses and ferns. Depending on the plants you keep, the fertilizer your fish produce may be enough to sustain your plants. This natural fert is really the best, long term. If you have a decent fish load, you just need to feed your fish a balanced diet and they'll take care of providing the nutrients your plants need.

If you want to supplement, and prefer liquids, then API, Tetra, Earth Juice, Nutrafin and Standard Hydroponics have some good products. These are a bit pricey, especially if you keep several tanks. It's up to you, though.

B
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Old 06-16-2013, 10:06 AM   #3
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Hi B,

Thanks for your reply.
I guess you are right. getting the tank in to full equilibrium with minimum chemical interference would be the best.

I will do my best to get there
David
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Old 06-16-2013, 11:25 AM   #4
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I've been using excel for quite some time now and have only had issues with it killing one of my plants and never any issues with it killing moss or shrimp. Depending on your light level you will need a carbon source to keep things in balance or you will have algae growth.

As for aerating the water, plants will stop producing o2 at night and will instead produce co2 so you will need to have some surface movement to take care of that.
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Old 06-16-2013, 11:28 AM   #5
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what is the dose you use ?
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Old 06-16-2013, 12:08 PM   #6
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I dose double and use diy co2.and my plants grow like weeds. Even in my shrimp tank I dose double. I also use dry ferts and am in the high side of medium lighting.
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Old 06-16-2013, 12:10 PM   #7
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I dose triple on my high light betta tank and I just use the recommended dose for my medium light community. I also use dry ferts on both tanks.
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Old 06-16-2013, 12:15 PM   #8
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Also if you ever become a plant master and KNOW EXACTLY what you are doing you can safely dose up to 1.5ml/gallon but I only know one person so far that is that knoweleable about plants.
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Old 06-16-2013, 12:58 PM   #9
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Plant master? Sorry, no such thing.

Anyone who has a thriving planted tank can give excellent advice.

Anyways, as for the subject at hand.

I use CO2 and Florish Excel in my 40g. If you have vals, using the recommend dose will not kill them. Keep your filter running when you dose. The dispersement from the filter helps.

In my shrimp tank I use Florish Excel only (no CO2) and other Seachem ferts, no shrimp have die off from dosing. Again, I keep the filters going when I dose and only dose once a week.

Pretty much for all of my tanks when using Excel, I keep the water moving, either with the filters going, an airstone, or dosing while I'm doing a refill after cleaning.
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Old 06-16-2013, 01:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMantelli View Post
Also if you ever become a plant master and KNOW EXACTLY what you are doing you can safely dose up to 1.5ml/gallon but I only know one person so far that is that knoweleable about plants.
I think that would largely have to depend on lighting, so how much nutrients the plants are absorbing. As you probably know, faster-growing plants absorb more nutrients than slow-growing ones - so glut dosing would more so depend on lighting and plant growth rather than plant knowledge.

As for vals, elodea, and mosses with glut - elodea does not get along with it at all. Your mileage may vary with vals and mosses. I have found that the kH of your water can play a role in the vals' tolerance. I have been gradually increasing dosing of glut on my tank with vals and moss, to see their threshold. I so far have been doing half doses and everything seems fine.

Also, for cheaper excel - once you run out of your current bottle, get a jug of metricide 14 on ebay. It still contains glutaraldehyde, but it is more concentrated and much more cost-effective. A one gallon jug cost me $21, whereas a 500 mL bottle of name-brand excel can cost nearly $10. So, you are getting around $80 of excel for $20 You will have to adjust dosing because of the higher concentration, or you will need to dilute it.
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Old 06-16-2013, 03:18 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by DragonFish71 View Post
Plant master? Sorry, no such thing.

Anyone who has a thriving planted tank can give excellent advice.

Anyways, as for the subject at hand.

I use CO2 and Florish Excel in my 40g. If you have vals, using the recommend dose will not kill them. Keep your filter running when you dose. The dispersement from the filter helps.

In my shrimp tank I use Florish Excel only (no CO2) and other Seachem ferts, no shrimp have die off from dosing. Again, I keep the filters going when I dose and only dose once a week.

Pretty much for all of my tanks when using Excel, I keep the water moving, either with the filters going, an airstone, or dosing while I'm doing a refill after cleaning.
I wasn't claiming to be a plant master all I meant is if you SERIOUSLY KNOW WHAT YOUR DOING you can dose that high. Just take a look at rivercats 220g planted tank and you will see what I mean about knowing what you are doing. And with excel/glut it breaks down after about 24hrs so dosing daily or every other day is reccomended to beep the levels consistant. In consistant co2/co2 suppliment level will most likely lead to an algae outbreak. If you want a better and cheaper fertilizing method research pps-pro method. That way you can know what your plants are using and what they need. It also is waaaayy cheaper than using store bought stuff as you are mostly paying for water.
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Old 06-16-2013, 03:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
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I wasn't claiming to be a plant master all I meant is if you SERIOUSLY KNOW WHAT YOUR DOING you can dose that high. Just take a look at rivercats 220g planted tank and you will see what I mean about knowing what you are doing. And with excel/glut it breaks down after about 24hrs so dosing daily or every other day is reccomended to beep the levels consistant. In consistant co2/co2 suppliment level will most likely lead to an algae outbreak. If you want a better and cheaper fertilizing method research pps-pro method. That way you can know what your plants are using and what they need. It also is waaaayy cheaper than using store bought stuff as you are mostly paying for water.

The point I'm trying to make is that anyone can research all that goes into having a thriving planted tank and still use ferts or Excel at the recommended dosage and have no issues.

Quite a few of us have beautiful planted tanks by doing simply that, research and following dosage directions. Heck, some of us forget to dose most of the time and still have beautiful planted tanks.
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Old 06-16-2013, 03:35 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMantelli View Post

I wasn't claiming to be a plant master all I meant is if you SERIOUSLY KNOW WHAT YOUR DOING you can dose that high. Just take a look at rivercats 220g planted tank and you will see what I mean about knowing what you are doing. And with excel/glut it breaks down after about 24hrs so dosing daily or every other day is reccomended to beep the levels consistant. In consistant co2/co2 suppliment level will most likely lead to an algae outbreak. If you want a better and cheaper fertilizing method research pps-pro method. That way you can know what your plants are using and what they need. It also is waaaayy cheaper than using store bought stuff as you are mostly paying for water.
Using rivercats' dosing levels as a benchmark is like using a 100 mpg car as a benchmark to finding a fuel-efficient car. Many options will look inferior. But this is mainly due to her large amount of lighting. You naturally need more ferts when you almost have a miniature sun lighting your tank
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Old 06-16-2013, 04:57 PM   #14
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I've done a lot of research on Excel/Glut and even on Excel's bottle they state a higher dose may be needed in high production tanks. From all I've read Excel/Glut is needed in higher amounts when there are a alot of fast growing stem plants, high to very high lighting, a high bio-load which actually according to Seachem breaks down Excel/Glut faster. Then as already stated whether you have low light slow growing plants or fast growing higher light plants also factors in. According to Seachem the amount of Excel dosing came from testing on a very specific type of tank setup. If I remember right it was medium light (whatever they considered medium light) and a set number of plants. So all considering their standard dose of 1ml Excel per 10g water is pretty generic considering all tanks are different. And also most people don't know that if you truly overdose Excel or Glut it will cause cloudy water soon after dosing but will be clear by the next day. The tanks chemistry will actually tell if there is an overdose. I use Glut in all my tanks and yes, a very high dose in the 220g due to having very high light, almost all fast growing stem plants, the fact the tank is 100% planted, and IMO I have a fairly high bio-load to boot. So IMO each tank has it's own amount of liquid carbon it needs/uses if your going to go that route. And as for long term effect I've been using these products for years with no ill effect that I have noticed. I would definitely err on the side of caution if using it with certain delicate shrimp but I have found it to be quite safe. My fish still spawn when using it which is a good sign, I've never lost fish, shrimp, or snails from it that I know of, even after a year or two.

That being said if a person doesn't feel comfortable using it then don't. As already stated there are some beautiful tanks out there that don't use liquid carbon or CO2 but as you get into med to high light you have to be careful if you don't use either as algae can become a problem.
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Old 06-16-2013, 06:41 PM   #15
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The point I'm trying to make is that anyone can research all that goes into having a thriving planted tank and still use ferts or Excel at the recommended dosage and have no issues.

Quite a few of us have beautiful planted tanks by doing simply that, research and following dosage directions. Heck, some of us forget to dose most of the time and still have beautiful planted tanks.
I never said they would have algae issues by going by the reccomended dosage but I was trying to inform them that inconsistant co2 levels can lead to algae issues in most cases. Plus the dosage for excel is daily or every other day not weekley it is on the bottle.

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Using rivercats' dosing levels as a benchmark is like using a 100 mpg car as a benchmark to finding a fuel-efficient car. Many options will look inferior. But this is mainly due to her large amount of lighting. You naturally need more ferts when you almost have a miniature sun lighting your tank
Yes but having that miniature sun lighting it is how she gets the true color out of her colored stem plants. And yes the more light you have the more ferts your plants need.

And who wouldn't want to use her tank as a benchmark it is an amazing piece of aquatic art that I personally use as a benchmark so that I can someday have something almost as perfectly set up as she has.

And if you guys are gonna give people information mabey give them the right info. The reccomended dosage on the storebought ferts are meant to give you a starting point there will be some tanks that need more and some that need less. I have 3 tanks with plants in them in one I dose 1ml/10g of all my ferts every day and in another I only dose 2 of the ferts so it all depends on what your plants need and use. There is no point in over or under dosing your ferts that's Tue same as over or under feeding your fish. I also was using plant master as a general term I wasn't stating anyone had only plant knowledge but to be masterful at something is knowing many if not all aspects of what ever it is your a master of for example a plant master would know about lighting co2 ferts plants substrates good fish to go with plants etc.
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Old 06-16-2013, 06:55 PM   #16
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Yes but having that miniature sun lighting it is how she gets the true color out of her colored stem plants.
I am aware. Higher light does tend to get better growth out of plants.

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And who wouldn't want to use her tank as a benchmark it is an amazing piece of aquatic art that I personally use as a benchmark so that I can someday have something almost as perfectly set up as she has.
It is a good tank - perhaps I worded my post incorrectly. What I meant was that many doses that people use are in smaller, most cases much smaller, amounts than what Janis uses. As beaten over the head earlier, this is because she has very strong lighting. So, it's not exactly a good tank to use as an example for dosing (maybe that will be understood better.)

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And if you guys are gonna give people information mabey give them the right info. The reccomended dosage on the storebought ferts are meant to give you a starting point there will be some tanks that need more and some that need less.
As far as I know, I have at least been trying to convey that point with the "higher light = more fertilizer needed" relationship I have been talking about. I apologize if it was unclear.
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Old 06-16-2013, 07:02 PM   #17
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Yes it was taken wrong. And I apologise if I sounded like an a$$ is my responce but I'm just not big on misinformation especially here on AA I lost all my favorate cichlids due to misinformation. And would hate to see someone think there doing everything right just to have nothing but problems later down the road. And the high lighting is also for the plants to bring out there natural "sunblock" so to speak.
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Old 06-16-2013, 07:06 PM   #18
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Yes it was taken wrong. And I apologise if I sounded like an a$$ is my responce but I'm just not big on misinformation especially here on AA I lost all my favorate cichlids due to misinformation. And would hate to see someone think there doing everything right just to have nothing but problems later down the road. And the high lighting is also for the plants to bring out there natural "sunblock" so to speak.
No hard feelings I am not big on misinformation either.
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