Help, Please!

[rkilling1]

Your Ph and Kh to not match, that suggests something is buffering your Ph. This most likely makes it so you can not use the CO2 charts to figure your CO2. It sounds like you have a direct CO2 test. My Red Sea Master test kit has one. It always correlates well with the Ph/Kh/CO2 charts.

Wow, I missed that. I was too blindsided by the green water and the 'I'm giving up' I guess.

Question for you Zezmo, could aglae under high light consume large amounts of CO2? just wondering is the green water could be consuming the CO2 or in fact he has a buffer, besides the fact that his readings from prior posts confirming he has a buffer.

I have not made this step blindly in the least, but it sure seems that I have gotten extremely varied opinions and even contridictory advice on just about every aspect.

I am going to vent and you (Rupret) are allowed to vent as much as you want as long as you maintain it in a family orientated manner. ( Not that you didn't)

I Just had to get some things straight here. (assumptions are made here within)

I feel very bad for what has happed to you and to hear your frustration only makes it worse. and on top of that it seems you did NOT heed any of the advice given to you thus far.

the recommendation of reducing the light was mentioned in every post in reguards to your situation until you could better handle the amount you purchased. If you WOULD have read the stickied that Purrbox referenced, you would have noticed that one of the biggest mistakes for the NOOB planted tank is thinking that one can just plug in a huge light and add plants or even then add CO2 and have a nice tank. That is by no means the case.

"extremely varied opinions and even contridictory" this is why I am boiling over.

I understand you are venting and I wholeheartly do not want to put you down for doing so.

but the only varied opinion on this thread was about KH. IMO a KH of 1-2 is too low for ME, but for others that was fine. I cannot tell you how your KH will very, nor can anyone else for that matter, over time.

This thread has taken me alone hours of my time to reseach the info prior to posting just to make sure I wasn't giving you the wrong information. That my not seem like a lot, but if I was at work that is a lot of money and I do not get paid for this and neither does any one of these guys that are taking time out of thier day to help you out.

now this is me venting. (my veiws/vents are in no way shape or form represent AA or it's members)

[/vent]

with this being said, I REALLY want to help you. I want you to have the piece of art work in your house that everyone just sits there and asks so many questions about.

 

[Zezmo]

I am assuming that Rupret with his many years of fishkeeping experience, knows how to do basic water tests. And can follow the directions on the new tests he bought. So while Hobby kits are not the most accurate, they are accurate enough for most purposes. It's things like Iron tests that are very suspect. Basic Ph, and Kh tests are easy to use and reasonably accurate. It looks like a "master" type kit was bought. That should be adequate.

The water seems to have a buffer because of the discrepancies between the direct CO2 tests, and the chart.
10/20

I have a pH of 7.0

- this was with neutral regulator

later that same day (after water changes, and no more neutral regulator?)
10/20

Ok guys, here are my water levels as of today: KH-2, pH-7.2, CO2-10ppm

CO2 by Chart = 4

then...
10/21

This morning my water values are as follows: KH-1 pH-7.4 CO2 via test- 8ppm

CO2 by Chart = 2
same day after a water change...

Water values after the PWC: KH-1, pH-7.4

No change - this is good and suggests the chemicals (neutral buffer, algaefix, clarifier) are pretty much gone through water changes.

10/27

Currently my KH is 1, pH is 7.8

CO2 by chart 0

Certainly Algae and plants consume CO2. Not that much. More likely is that the charts have been rendered inaccurate by buffers in the water. The direct CO2 test if done per the instructions has always been accurate for me. Even by test, the highest CO2 shown is 10ppm. This is simply way too low for that much light.

I realize all of this started with some green water, and yet this thread has not been about how to fix green water. Fixing green water, or any algae, is about getting nutrients in balance (or at least non limited). Then the plants will grow, the algae will die and you can enjoy being a planted tank owner. Not be an algae fighter.

Green water can be removed by a Diatom Filter. It can be killed by a UV sterilizer. Both of those work well, and they work now. They are bandaids, they do not fix the problem. Without either of those items, fixing green water goes back to ferts, and patience. It is typical for it to take 4-6 weeks for Green water to go away (without UV or Diatom Filter). And that is after you have fixed the nutrient problems. Greenwater is an eyesore, yes. Most folks find that their fish actually thrive in it. Don't be surprised to come out the backside of this problem and find there are some new baby fish in the tank.

This entire thread has had a very consistent message: Lower the light until things get under control, and use EI until you get some solid experience at successfully growing plants.

Purrbox and Rkilling are solid aquarists with much experience. Their advice is always spot on when I read it. Even if you choose to ignore everything I said. Please, listen to at least Purrbox's advice. Solid simple suggestions that will lead to success.

High light without the supporting CO2 and Ferts is a recipe for Algae.
This is why we recommended that you cut back on the lighting until you got your CO2 and Ferts in order.
Once you've got your CO2 levels at or above 30ppm and Ferts ready to dose, you can turn the lights back up to full power.
I would definitely recommend giving EI a shot for your dosing as it means less testing and related frustration.

 

[Rupret]

Thanks everyone! I'm going to have read back over everything; I may have to print it off to read and highlight easier. I do realize I have made major mistakes getting this started, especially without the proper ferts. I am learning; it is a lot of information to absorb. Yes, it is frustrating.

I do appreciate you guys. When I refered to contridictary advice, it was among all the reseach and advice I have been given. Just a couple examples, one LFS telling me to use the Neurtal Regulator to lower the nitrates and another LFS telling me to use Algae Fix. I've also read in various books (I also read, without buying, at fish and book stores) that algae can be caused by high nitrates (led to the LFS advice to lower nitrates with Neutral Regulator), then another book says high phosphates. Will the nutrients with KHPO4 add to potential algae growth? The Seachem K+ is "phosphate free". I'm really trying to put everything together, but now I'm doing it with associated problems.

One of you said the ladder CO2 will not be sufficient. One LFS utilizes the ladder for their CO2 diffusion, thus why I ordered it. I had a glass diffuser, which did get plugged up with algae and would not allow CO2 to diffuse through (ie: one big problem found). I do not have powerheads in my tank. I do have two Rena XP3 cannisters, but no powerhead. I have had powerheads in the past and here in our Arkansas summers (100+ degrees upto 110+), I had major cooling problems with several different power heads on a previous 75 gallon tank. Went to an airpump & stones for the undergravel filter (on the 75 not my current 125) and the cooling issues ceased. During the summer, I have to set my home a/c cooler than I would otherwise just to keep the tank at 80-ish degrees. So, what other CO2 diffusion options do I have? Would a pair of diffusers, two ladder or two glass or one of each, be a better option? Or is there something else out there?

My test kits are the Red Sea lab deluxe, with the results I have posted, including CO2 levels. I also have an Aquarium Pharmacuticals master kit and have an AP GH & KH test kit on order. And a Tetra O2 level test ordered; concern for the fish. I will compare the RS and AP tests to each other, so far they have been the same or extremely close. One question I have on determining the KH & GH is the RS kit says to add one drop for the start level, then count additional drops for the degrees of hardness. Thus, my KH of 1 degree is one drop for the start then 1 more drop gives the final color change. I have read this correctly, haven't I? If not, my KH and GH values are one degree higher.

As for the moment, I am keeping my aquarium light off until my supplies arrive, except for briefly to feed the fish. I will check the Greg Watson web site for the supplies and prices. I will also print everything off we have discussed here to help me get a better grasp on it (hard paper is easier for me than computer screens). Would running an airpump at night only be benefical at all? I did do that only one night last week for the benefit of the fish after the fish deaths occurred.

Yes, I am an experienced aquarium guy, but for fish only. I have had aquariums for nearly the last 20 years and previously as a child/teenager until I left home. I started with a 15 gallon and had tremendous luck with an amazon sword. which took up half the tank - beautiful. Over 15 years ago, I upgraded to a 75 gallon, the sword died and I had no luck with further plant attempts. When I started planning the 125, I learned the 40 watts of light in my 75 didn't cut it. I started the 125 with fish only last spring. Until now, my aquariums have always looked excellent, crystal clear water, and my fish have also done excellent and lived to an old age. I am very much a newbie to this level of planted tanks, though.

My 125 has the two Rena XP3 filters, with a total projected water flow of 700 gph (350 each), Hydor in-line heaters, small gravel substrate, no undergravel filter, Coralife 384 watt Lunar Light, and CO2 tank with Milwalkee regulator with bubble counter on the regulator.

Thank for the feedback and encouragement. It does help when you guys say I can get this straightened out. I am trying to do this right, but have gotten some bad advice from other sources, so bear with me. I don't mean to be sound rude or anything, but just looking at a green tank is horribly discouraging and not 100% sure what do but I am learning from you guys. THANKS!!!

 

[rkilling1]

I am very pleased that your attitude is still very positive. I encouage you to take a look at the Planted Aquascaping forum( http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewforum.php?f=108 ) and view all of those wonderful tanks, because with the specs that you have, once you get things going you will be posting in there.

don't forget the Barter/Trade forum ( http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewforum.php?f=23 ) many AA members give plants away free or for next to nothing. Great place to enhance the look of your planted aquarium. Many of my plants have come from AA members.

good luck.

 

[Purrbox]

For CO2 diffusion I would recommend an Inline Reactor. If you want to give it a try, you could build one yourself fairly inexpensively (click on the pics for extra info). There are retail versions available as well (The Reactor 1000 towards the bottom of the page). You would be able to run this inline with one of your canister filters and should get excellent CO2 Levels as a result.

You really needn't worry about the fish getting enough O2 unless you see them at the top of the tank gasping for breath. If this happens then running an airpump at night is a perfectly acceptable solution. While it does gas off some of the CO2 it also helps to raise the O2 levels. By running it only at night, the CO2 will remain available during the day when it is needed by the plants.

 

[sherry]

guys you need to rethink all this push toward buffering low kh. It works perfectly to have low low kh and co2. the fish are fine. the more he buffers the more he is chasing with chemicals. My kh is 1. I add a little ghboost for plants, but that is it. my ph runs at 5.9, the fish and plants are doing great. I only ever run co2 at day and run airstone at night.

there iS NO NEED TO BUFFER ph with low kh water. if more of you actually had soft water hand experienced this first hand, the advice would always be different. I picked this up from Tom Barr to begin with and he is absolutely right. I stopped having plants die and fish die when I stopped adding baking soda. I think it is as unnecessary as nuetral regulars.

 

[rkilling1]

guys you need to rethink all this push toward buffering low kh. It works perfectly to have low low kh and co2. the fish are fine. the more he buffers the more he is chasing with chemicals. My kh is 1. I add a little ghboost for plants, but that is it. my ph runs at 5.9, the fish and plants are doing great. I only ever run co2 at day and run airstone at night.

there iS NO NEED TO BUFFER ph with low kh water. if more of you actually had soft water hand experienced this first hand, the advice would always be different. I picked this up from Tom Barr to begin with and he is absolutely right. I stopped having plants die and fish die when I stopped adding baking soda. I think it is as unnecessary as nuetral regulars.

Sherry I corrected myself already.

but the only varied opinion on this thread was about KH. IMO a KH of 1-2 is too low for ME, but for others that was fine.

and to add to what sherry is saying: (and to my knowledge bank)

A KH of 20ppm is still fine, 30-40ppm is fine also.
I generally will not add KH unless it's less than 20ppm.

I've done tanks with no KH also, but had to add the KH to get a ball park range of CO2, then removed all the KH later.

You may just need to add more CO2 is all and the accuracy of the pH test kit might be part of the issue. A pH pen or pH monitor might be a wise item to get. also, make sure to turn off any electrical devices before taking a reading and calibrate the probe often.

Do not just measure once either, measure several times thoughout one day to see how the CO2 vary over a typical day(measure just when the lights and CO2 are on).

Afterwards, this will give a fairly good idea what the CO2 is doing and you can predict what ranges the CO2 is. then you will not need to test much again so much unless there is a problem with algae, or plant growth slows down dramatically etc. Then the pH pen/monitors make a quick spot check from then on fairly easy and quick.

Do not think of a any measurement, CO2 in particular of all the measurement test we do, as a stable level throughout the day. It varies, so just seeing one point in time does not tell you that much. It's more work to test every 1-2 hours, but it does give you a much better idea of the patterns with CO2.

It's not something I'd suggest you do as a routine though.
Many folks assume their CO2/opH is the saem if they take one single measurement and post that, some folks post a range of pH's for the day(better).

Now that is just day variation, add week variation or monthly variations and folks can have a very wide difference.

If the CO2 is stable over the month etc, then you have pretty nice growth and little/no algae.


Regards,
Tom Barr

from www.barrreport.com

As you can see from this quote from Tom, that he has run a tank with 0 KH, but inorder to guage his CO2 he had to add a buffer to measure. I would not have imagined this could have been true just weeks ago, but the more I look into the ecosystem of a planted tank, the more I realize how misinformed I am and how much misinformation I have given out over the past months of my planted life.

 

[Rupret]

Has any of you used a "Double Membrane Diffuser" for CO2? Drs Foster and Smith have one in their catalog for $30. They say it "guarantees 100% use of CO2". I am too late to cancel the ladder CO2 diffuser, so I have it coming regardless. Before I order another diffuser, I would like a second opinion. The inline CO2 reactor runs $80 and I would have to really do some "u" turns with my output line from my canister filters due to I have a Hydor inline heater on each output, which takes up quite a bit of space. I am trying to clean my glass diffuser, but I don't think it is too likely, but I'm soaking on peroxide. I think the glass diffuser is going to be loss.

My new book and plant ferts is scheduled to be delivered Monday, but the last tracking scan has everything in Illinois, so I think it is going to be delayed. I'll have everything you guys have said thoroughly re-read again and issues highlighted by the time it arrives. Until then there is not much I can do, but keep the tank dark.