I need help! I have a 125 gallon freshwater tank, which has been extremely healthy for the fish. Recently I added plants, with 384 watt light, CO2 injection, timers, and so on. Added plants. I had a major algae growth, which was cured with Algae Fix for planted tanks. Plants did not look well, excessive algae growth again, and a high nitrate level. I did 3 partial water changes with in a week adding SeaChem's Neutral Regulator. Nitrate level down to 20. Greenish cloudy water returned. Added two doses of Algae Fix within a week. Water still cloudy. Added two doses of cloudy water clarifier. Water still cloudy. Right now I am in completing a 4 day blackout, with CO2 off. But now this week my fish are dying. Monday I lost 6 fish in one day and so far have lost 12 or more fish this week. Both fish and plants are dying. I have a pH of 7.0, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and still about 20 nitrate. What is wrong? What can I do? I am planning on another partial water change today, but what else
Help, Please!
- Thread starter Rupret
- Start date
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seems that you dove right in head first.
we are going to need some more info,
GH, KH
Ferts and dosing schedule.
types of lights
plants
the whole nine if you will
I would stop using algae fix. algae can be controled with the right amount of ferts and a proper schedule. We will get you on the right track.
we are going to need some more info,
GH, KH
Ferts and dosing schedule.
types of lights
plants
the whole nine if you will
I would stop using algae fix. algae can be controled with the right amount of ferts and a proper schedule. We will get you on the right track.
Zezmo
Aquarium Advice Addict
Algae fix, and NEutral Regulator both to be avoided on a planted tank. They are not the solution to algae.
At those light levels you are about to take a crash course in doing a planted tank. I highly recoment you read up on EI ( http://www.barrreport.com/ ). Info is also in the stickies at the top of the plant forum.
Cutting back the light (hours or less bulbs) will slow things down some and let you learn what to do.
At those light levels you are about to take a crash course in doing a planted tank. I highly recoment you read up on EI ( http://www.barrreport.com/ ). Info is also in the stickies at the top of the plant forum.
Cutting back the light (hours or less bulbs) will slow things down some and let you learn what to do.
I don't have carbonate or general hardness test equipment.
Plants: amazon swords x2, annubis, micro swords, sagittaria, couple cryptocoryne, a couple others which I don't know the name. One has propagated nicely but proagated brown. All plants were to suppose to be easy to grow.
lights: Coralife lunar light with antiic bulbs replaced with 10K bulbs, compact fluorescent. fI run half the lights for 10 hrs and all lights with CO2 for 8 hrs.
When I introduced the plants, I added a dose of iron supplement.
Algae Fix was recommended by a local store. And the Neutral Regulator was to get the nitrate level down. I am not adding either on a regular basis.
I spent months doing my homework regarding planted tanks before setting up the 125 gallon tank. I had 75 gallon for years before. The 125 did great with fish and water clarity prior to the upgrade to plants. I have always done extremely well with fish, but now I'm afraid to even look at the tank due to the expectation of more fish.
Plants: amazon swords x2, annubis, micro swords, sagittaria, couple cryptocoryne, a couple others which I don't know the name. One has propagated nicely but proagated brown. All plants were to suppose to be easy to grow.
lights: Coralife lunar light with antiic bulbs replaced with 10K bulbs, compact fluorescent. fI run half the lights for 10 hrs and all lights with CO2 for 8 hrs.
When I introduced the plants, I added a dose of iron supplement.
Algae Fix was recommended by a local store. And the Neutral Regulator was to get the nitrate level down. I am not adding either on a regular basis.
I spent months doing my homework regarding planted tanks before setting up the 125 gallon tank. I had 75 gallon for years before. The 125 did great with fish and water clarity prior to the upgrade to plants. I have always done extremely well with fish, but now I'm afraid to even look at the tank due to the expectation of more fish.
as to what Zezmo has said, with that much light and CO2 you WILL have to dose ferts.
here is the EI schedule that a lot of us use:
http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/62-estimative-index-dosing-no-need-test-kits.html
read thru it.
most of us also purchase our ferts from greg watson online.
you will need to know your pH and KH to know where your CO2 levels are. and you will need to know you GH in order to know if you need to add Mg++ or Ca++.
"At those light levels you are about to take a crash course in doing a planted tank" No kidding
here is the EI schedule that a lot of us use:
http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/62-estimative-index-dosing-no-need-test-kits.html
read thru it.
most of us also purchase our ferts from greg watson online.
you will need to know your pH and KH to know where your CO2 levels are. and you will need to know you GH in order to know if you need to add Mg++ or Ca++.
"At those light levels you are about to take a crash course in doing a planted tank" No kidding
newfound77951
Aquarium Advice Addict
And a crash course in what to believe from the LFS....
You'll get this figured out...it's not rocket science, but does take some practice and patience. 384 watts on a 125 is ~3 wpg, I run at almost 4 and went through some rough patches but got it under control.
Get test kits for the parameters you need, and keep asking questions here on AA.....way more info here than at any LFS I've ever been to!
Ok guys, here are my water levels as of today:
GH-3
KH-2
CO2-10ppm
pH-7.2
Fe-0
Cl-0
NH3/NH4-0
Ok, I know I need to add more iron. My biggest concern this week has been the death of many fish. I know you guys are plant guys, but my priority are the fish. I do want to get the plants going well, but will discontinue them if my fish are suffering and dying.
So, what next?
GH-3
KH-2
CO2-10ppm
pH-7.2
Fe-0
Cl-0
NH3/NH4-0
Ok, I know I need to add more iron. My biggest concern this week has been the death of many fish. I know you guys are plant guys, but my priority are the fish. I do want to get the plants going well, but will discontinue them if my fish are suffering and dying.
So, what next?
first off lets talk about the fish, they only thing i can think of that would cause the fish to die would be a drastic change in pH/KH. IE adding a lot of Neutral Regulator followed by performing a lot of water changes without adding the Neutral Regulator back in. As mentioned STOP adding Neutral Regulator. First off it's best to have a stable KH and secondly that product contains PO4's which will only contribute to your algae problem unless your other ferts are balanced with it.
Fe: as far as I know there isn't an accurate test kit for Fe for the average jo out there. your best bet is to look into CSM+B dosing as posted in the previous posts.
according to your results of pH and KH your CO2 is 4 PPM (unless the Neutral Regulator is still effecting your pH). If you cannot get it up to 15 to 30 PPM, I would suggest thinking about lowing your light level down to around 2 WPG until you can sustain the CO2.
Fe: as far as I know there isn't an accurate test kit for Fe for the average jo out there. your best bet is to look into CSM+B dosing as posted in the previous posts.
according to your results of pH and KH your CO2 is 4 PPM (unless the Neutral Regulator is still effecting your pH). If you cannot get it up to 15 to 30 PPM, I would suggest thinking about lowing your light level down to around 2 WPG until you can sustain the CO2.
The one think that I might be able to think about on the fish is my CO2 got high, but during the blackout days with no CO2 may have gotten the CO2 lowered and O2 back up. It was over a week after the water changes that the fish began to die. The fish look better today, no deaths, but last night I has several lying on their side on the bottem, but they look good today.
I don't like using any chemical additives in the water. When my pH decreased, which it does with our acidic Arkansas water, I buffer it with baking soda; have not had to do that since the change to plants. The Neutral Regulator was only to get the nitrates down. I had algae problems before the Neutral Regulator also.
Should I get the CO2 injection back on right away? Or just utilize half the light? Would half the light be enough for the plants? Also, is the CSM+B dosing in the Estimative Index of Dosing article?
I appreciate all the help you guys can provide. It has been a very bad week for the aqarium in my house. I have a couple of huge angels that I do not want to lose.
I don't like using any chemical additives in the water. When my pH decreased, which it does with our acidic Arkansas water, I buffer it with baking soda; have not had to do that since the change to plants. The Neutral Regulator was only to get the nitrates down. I had algae problems before the Neutral Regulator also.
Should I get the CO2 injection back on right away? Or just utilize half the light? Would half the light be enough for the plants? Also, is the CSM+B dosing in the Estimative Index of Dosing article?
I appreciate all the help you guys can provide. It has been a very bad week for the aqarium in my house. I have a couple of huge angels that I do not want to lose.
Zezmo
Aquarium Advice Addict
As far as I know the Neutral regulator is not for Nitrate reduction.
The dieing fish are first priority. You can cut back on light, and hold off on CO2 until you are sure your fish are doing better. That said, from your descriptions it is very unlikely that CO2 is your issue with fish dieing. Now bouncing the Kh, that may kill fish, as Rkilling mentions.
You did not mention what type of fish died. I say this because some fish may be more sensitive to things like the algaecide than others. I would look strongly at that stuff.
Maybe a 50% water change every 2-3 days for a week or two. This will get rid of any traces of the algaecide and the neutral regulator.
You say the 125 was running fine before plants. So I assume you know to use declor before adding tap water. Could chlorine not removed during a water change have killed the fish?
As for CO2 and light, when you are ready to turn these on and up. Turn your CO2 on before, or at the same time as your lights...preferable a while before.
Don't run the lights when the CO2 is off. At first, try only running half your lights for 10 hours a day. Start the CO2 one hour before the light goes on, and keep it on until the light goes off.
Target CO2 for starters if 30-40ppm. Use your Ph/Kh and a CO2 chart to figure out your CO2 levels. If you use the neutral regulator, the CO2 charts probably are not accurate (but I hope you have stopped with that stuff anyways).
The reduced light will give you time to learn more about plants, ferts, and algae.... all of which this site has great info on.
If you need to buffer Kh (and at Kh of 2 you probably don't) use baking soda, do it precisely, don't guess or estimate. Preferably buffer and test your water in a separate container before it goes in the tank. This helps prevent mistakes. Also, with very soft water you might consider some Gh buffer (i.e. Seachem Equilibrium). 1-2 tsp (of Equilibrium) at water change is all that you would need.
1/4 tsp of Baking Soda per 5 gallons of water will raise the Kh 2-3 degrees.
As for ferts, if you are in on the weekly 50%+ water change. Then using EI can make the fert thing very easy. CSM+B is supposed to be good stuff. That said, Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive, or Tropica Plant Nutrition Liquid (Formerly Tropica Master Grow TMG) are just as good, and for a beginer they are much easier to figure dosing. You can buy 2liter or 4liter bottles from BigAl's onlione and keep the cost down.
FWIW, I have a school of 11 young angels (formerly 3 large angels who bred) in my main tank. The water has very high CO2, tons of ferts, low Kh (2dKh), and big water changes. They are very healthy and happy. IMO large weekly water changes from a stable source are way more important than chasing down some ideal Ph or Kh.
The dieing fish are first priority. You can cut back on light, and hold off on CO2 until you are sure your fish are doing better. That said, from your descriptions it is very unlikely that CO2 is your issue with fish dieing. Now bouncing the Kh, that may kill fish, as Rkilling mentions.
You did not mention what type of fish died. I say this because some fish may be more sensitive to things like the algaecide than others. I would look strongly at that stuff.
Maybe a 50% water change every 2-3 days for a week or two. This will get rid of any traces of the algaecide and the neutral regulator.
You say the 125 was running fine before plants. So I assume you know to use declor before adding tap water. Could chlorine not removed during a water change have killed the fish?
As for CO2 and light, when you are ready to turn these on and up. Turn your CO2 on before, or at the same time as your lights...preferable a while before.
Don't run the lights when the CO2 is off. At first, try only running half your lights for 10 hours a day. Start the CO2 one hour before the light goes on, and keep it on until the light goes off.
Target CO2 for starters if 30-40ppm. Use your Ph/Kh and a CO2 chart to figure out your CO2 levels. If you use the neutral regulator, the CO2 charts probably are not accurate (but I hope you have stopped with that stuff anyways).
The reduced light will give you time to learn more about plants, ferts, and algae.... all of which this site has great info on.
If you need to buffer Kh (and at Kh of 2 you probably don't) use baking soda, do it precisely, don't guess or estimate. Preferably buffer and test your water in a separate container before it goes in the tank. This helps prevent mistakes. Also, with very soft water you might consider some Gh buffer (i.e. Seachem Equilibrium). 1-2 tsp (of Equilibrium) at water change is all that you would need.
1/4 tsp of Baking Soda per 5 gallons of water will raise the Kh 2-3 degrees.
As for ferts, if you are in on the weekly 50%+ water change. Then using EI can make the fert thing very easy. CSM+B is supposed to be good stuff. That said, Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive, or Tropica Plant Nutrition Liquid (Formerly Tropica Master Grow TMG) are just as good, and for a beginer they are much easier to figure dosing. You can buy 2liter or 4liter bottles from BigAl's onlione and keep the cost down.
FWIW, I have a school of 11 young angels (formerly 3 large angels who bred) in my main tank. The water has very high CO2, tons of ferts, low Kh (2dKh), and big water changes. They are very healthy and happy. IMO large weekly water changes from a stable source are way more important than chasing down some ideal Ph or Kh.
I'd like to take a moment to clarify a few things that will be helpful in understanding what is happening in your tank and to get things back under control.
First off algae in a planted tank is caused by a nutrient imbalance. The way to get rid of algae is to fix the imbalance and manual removal of existing algae. Algae killers only make the situation worse because they temporarily mask the problem and often harm the plants at the same time. They can even be harmful to fish and inverts. Most often the algae will come back even worse than the original out break. You have three basic types of nutrients in a planted tank: Light, CO2, and Fertilizers. If anyone of these is too low in relation to the others, then plants can't make use of the extra and algae throws a party.
As stated before the Neutral Regulator has no effect on your Nitrates and will only adjust your KH and pH. Sudden changes in KH are very stressfull on fish and is likely part of the problems that you are seeing. Except in very rare circumstances it's generally unecessary to mess with your KH as your fish and plants will adapt. This will keep a little more money in your pocket and your fish will thank you. Your KH is a bit low for CO2 injection, but this could easily be due to this chemical. I would get a KH reading from your tap water before making any judgement on whether you might need to buffer it slightly using baking soda. Then again there are more and more people that are reporting successfully injecting CO2 at lower KH levels, so even if this is an accurate measure of your KH you probably won't need to mess with it.
Skip clarifiers, like algae killers they mask the problem which usually comes back even worse and can be harmful to your fish. Clarifiers work by causing the floating particles to stick together making it easier for your filter to remove them. They can alse make your fish's gills stick together which makes it hard for them to breathe. In the case of Green Water it probably won't have any effect anyway.
I would echo the recommendation of cutting back on your lighting for the time being. Perform 50% water changes at least twice a week to get the chemicals out of your tank to help get it stable again. Use this time to go through the Links in the Recommended Reading Sticky. You'll want to pay particular attention to the sections on Lighting, CO2, and Fertilization. To tackle a high light tank you need a firm understanding of all three, and even then you are still likely encounter quite a few bumps in the road. Once you've done your reading and have aquired the necessary ferts (Trace Mix, Nitrates, Phosphates, and Potassium) you can look at bumping your lighting back up and turning the CO2 back on. Until then it's a recipe for algae.
First off algae in a planted tank is caused by a nutrient imbalance. The way to get rid of algae is to fix the imbalance and manual removal of existing algae. Algae killers only make the situation worse because they temporarily mask the problem and often harm the plants at the same time. They can even be harmful to fish and inverts. Most often the algae will come back even worse than the original out break. You have three basic types of nutrients in a planted tank: Light, CO2, and Fertilizers. If anyone of these is too low in relation to the others, then plants can't make use of the extra and algae throws a party.
As stated before the Neutral Regulator has no effect on your Nitrates and will only adjust your KH and pH. Sudden changes in KH are very stressfull on fish and is likely part of the problems that you are seeing. Except in very rare circumstances it's generally unecessary to mess with your KH as your fish and plants will adapt. This will keep a little more money in your pocket and your fish will thank you. Your KH is a bit low for CO2 injection, but this could easily be due to this chemical. I would get a KH reading from your tap water before making any judgement on whether you might need to buffer it slightly using baking soda. Then again there are more and more people that are reporting successfully injecting CO2 at lower KH levels, so even if this is an accurate measure of your KH you probably won't need to mess with it.
Skip clarifiers, like algae killers they mask the problem which usually comes back even worse and can be harmful to your fish. Clarifiers work by causing the floating particles to stick together making it easier for your filter to remove them. They can alse make your fish's gills stick together which makes it hard for them to breathe. In the case of Green Water it probably won't have any effect anyway.
I would echo the recommendation of cutting back on your lighting for the time being. Perform 50% water changes at least twice a week to get the chemicals out of your tank to help get it stable again. Use this time to go through the Links in the Recommended Reading Sticky. You'll want to pay particular attention to the sections on Lighting, CO2, and Fertilization. To tackle a high light tank you need a firm understanding of all three, and even then you are still likely encounter quite a few bumps in the road. Once you've done your reading and have aquired the necessary ferts (Trace Mix, Nitrates, Phosphates, and Potassium) you can look at bumping your lighting back up and turning the CO2 back on. Until then it's a recipe for algae.
Ok guys, since I'm not suppose to get advice from LFS, all you guys are now "on deck".
Here is an update since yesterday.
I placed a couple airstones in overnight to hopefully help the fish. They seemed more active this morning, so hopefully it helped at least some. Stopped the airstones this morning. This morning my water values are as follows:
KH-1
GH-2
pH-7.4
CO2 via test- 8ppm
Did a partial water change, treated with Sress Coat, which I have used for 20 years and have had excellent luck with non-planted aquariums. Water values after the PWC:
KH-1
GH-2
pH-7.4
No changes and per Kh/pH chart, CO2 of about 1.5ppm.
My tap water has the following values:
KH-<1
GH-1
pH-7.2 to 7.4
Fish I have have: angels, black finned tetras, tetra (bright red-orange), panda cory cats, pelcos (x3 very large ones),.
Fish that died this week: several zebra danios (all geriatric), cory cat, clown loaches, crab.
The fish that were highly distrssed were the black finned tetras, who did survive.
I do not have a phosphate test yet, but I will today. I will also look at some nutrients. I also know I need to increase the hardness of my water. I will also look to see if I can get any CSM+B (nutrient solution, I assume). What do I need to do now?
I feel a little better after seeing how the softness of my water, but how do I raise it appropriately? One of you mentioned baking soda, but that will also increase the pH, which is at 7.4. Will the CO2 bring down the pH? Again, please help, I am in new ground but feel as though I am getting some more information.
Thank you for all your help!
Here is an update since yesterday.
I placed a couple airstones in overnight to hopefully help the fish. They seemed more active this morning, so hopefully it helped at least some. Stopped the airstones this morning. This morning my water values are as follows:
KH-1
GH-2
pH-7.4
CO2 via test- 8ppm
Did a partial water change, treated with Sress Coat, which I have used for 20 years and have had excellent luck with non-planted aquariums. Water values after the PWC:
KH-1
GH-2
pH-7.4
No changes and per Kh/pH chart, CO2 of about 1.5ppm.
My tap water has the following values:
KH-<1
GH-1
pH-7.2 to 7.4
Fish I have have: angels, black finned tetras, tetra (bright red-orange), panda cory cats, pelcos (x3 very large ones),.
Fish that died this week: several zebra danios (all geriatric), cory cat, clown loaches, crab.
The fish that were highly distrssed were the black finned tetras, who did survive.
I do not have a phosphate test yet, but I will today. I will also look at some nutrients. I also know I need to increase the hardness of my water. I will also look to see if I can get any CSM+B (nutrient solution, I assume). What do I need to do now?
I feel a little better after seeing how the softness of my water, but how do I raise it appropriately? One of you mentioned baking soda, but that will also increase the pH, which is at 7.4. Will the CO2 bring down the pH? Again, please help, I am in new ground but feel as though I am getting some more information.
Thank you for all your help!
wow that is some soft water.
You are going to have to slow this down a bit until we can get your tank parameters up a little. I would lower the lighting until you can get the chemicals in.
here is a list of chemicals you are going to need:
CSM+B Plantex
Mono Potassium Phosphate
Barr's GH Booster or Seachem's Equilibrium
Potassium Sulfate
Potassium Nitrate
Baking soda or a type of carbonate to raise your KH
Your dosing schedule will look like this:
100 - 125 Gallon Aquarium
+/- 1 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- ½ tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- ½ tsp K2S04 3x a week
+/- ½ tsp (30ml) Trace 3x a week
50% weekly water change
micro's and marco's on opposite days.
adding the baking soda and GH booster after the water change.
Those ferts can be ordered here:
http://www.gregwatson.com/DryAquaticFertilizers.asp
I also recommend getting the 250ml(8 oz) bottles
This seems like a lot, but once you have it down it isn't that much. this is only required if you are going with such high light and CO2. Without the proper ferts algae will take over your tank.
EI target ranges
CO2 range 20-30 ppm
NO3 range 5-30 ppm
K+ range 10-30 ppm
PO4 range 1.0-2.0 ppm
Fe 0.2-0.5ppm or higher
GH range 3-5 degrees ~ 50ppm or higher
KH range 3-5
(Dosing schedule and EI target ranges taken from Tom Barr's EI dosing as linked to previously)
That is just the basic EI dosing setup it can be changed to suit your needs. IE dosing less KNO3 depending on your fish load and plant load. But once your plants take off you will be supprized how fast your NO3's will drop.
EDIT: just to clarify a couple of things:
macros: PO4, K, NO3.
micros: Fe, Mn, Mg, Zn, Cu, Mo, and B. all contained in CSM+B
You are going to have to slow this down a bit until we can get your tank parameters up a little. I would lower the lighting until you can get the chemicals in.
here is a list of chemicals you are going to need:
CSM+B Plantex
Mono Potassium Phosphate
Barr's GH Booster or Seachem's Equilibrium
Potassium Sulfate
Potassium Nitrate
Baking soda or a type of carbonate to raise your KH
Your dosing schedule will look like this:
100 - 125 Gallon Aquarium
+/- 1 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- ½ tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- ½ tsp K2S04 3x a week
+/- ½ tsp (30ml) Trace 3x a week
50% weekly water change
micro's and marco's on opposite days.
adding the baking soda and GH booster after the water change.
Those ferts can be ordered here:
http://www.gregwatson.com/DryAquaticFertilizers.asp
I also recommend getting the 250ml(8 oz) bottles
This seems like a lot, but once you have it down it isn't that much. this is only required if you are going with such high light and CO2. Without the proper ferts algae will take over your tank.
EI target ranges
CO2 range 20-30 ppm
NO3 range 5-30 ppm
K+ range 10-30 ppm
PO4 range 1.0-2.0 ppm
Fe 0.2-0.5ppm or higher
GH range 3-5 degrees ~ 50ppm or higher
KH range 3-5
(Dosing schedule and EI target ranges taken from Tom Barr's EI dosing as linked to previously)
That is just the basic EI dosing setup it can be changed to suit your needs. IE dosing less KNO3 depending on your fish load and plant load. But once your plants take off you will be supprized how fast your NO3's will drop.
EDIT: just to clarify a couple of things:
macros: PO4, K, NO3.
micros: Fe, Mn, Mg, Zn, Cu, Mo, and B. all contained in CSM+B
Zezmo
Aquarium Advice Addict
Rkilling covered dosing very well. The fish you mention dieing make me think it was the algaecide - old fish and scaleless fish (loaches).
As for your Kh. If your water is 1dkh, then your Ph should be closer to 6.2-6.6. Something seems to be acting on the Ph, or it is testing accuracy on the Kh or Ph side that is skewing the numbers.Maybe take some water down to a local petco or petsmart, they will test it for free and may correlate to your home tests.
Until you add CO2 you probably won't need to buffer the Kh. If the fish look happy, it should be ok. If your Ph is really that hih, then even with CO2 it may not be required.
As a comparison, My tank has Angels, Loaches, Tetras, Cories, Ottos, Gouramis, and SAE's. It has in the past also had Apistos and Discus. The Kh is usually 1-2, and the Ph runs 6.0-6.4 on most days. The key is slowly adjusting your fish to any new parameter, and then maintaining stability. IMO, chasing a parameter is not stability.
If, and this is a big if, you really feel you need to buffer your Kh. (and again I personally don't think you need to). Then your 50% water change should be about 60 gallons. In 60 gallons 3 level tsp of baking soda will raise your Kh by about 2-3dKh.
1/4tsp/5gallons=2-3dKh
At 1dGh, then you do want to use a Gh buffer. Equilibrium or Greg Watson Gh buffer being the only ones I know of. 2tsp at Water change should be fine. If on a weekly water change schedule, then mid week another 1/2-1 tsp of gh buffer would not hurt (but may not be necesary either)
One last bit of advice is, always try and double check any advice you are given, whether LFS or helpful internet folks. This forum and others are really helpful, as are most people. But every tank is different. So what works great for one person, may be a disaster for another. I can tell you that I have killed more fish and spent more money in two years of plant keeping than I had in 25 years of fish keeping.
As for your Kh. If your water is 1dkh, then your Ph should be closer to 6.2-6.6. Something seems to be acting on the Ph, or it is testing accuracy on the Kh or Ph side that is skewing the numbers.Maybe take some water down to a local petco or petsmart, they will test it for free and may correlate to your home tests.
Until you add CO2 you probably won't need to buffer the Kh. If the fish look happy, it should be ok. If your Ph is really that hih, then even with CO2 it may not be required.
As a comparison, My tank has Angels, Loaches, Tetras, Cories, Ottos, Gouramis, and SAE's. It has in the past also had Apistos and Discus. The Kh is usually 1-2, and the Ph runs 6.0-6.4 on most days. The key is slowly adjusting your fish to any new parameter, and then maintaining stability. IMO, chasing a parameter is not stability.
If, and this is a big if, you really feel you need to buffer your Kh. (and again I personally don't think you need to). Then your 50% water change should be about 60 gallons. In 60 gallons 3 level tsp of baking soda will raise your Kh by about 2-3dKh.
1/4tsp/5gallons=2-3dKh
At 1dGh, then you do want to use a Gh buffer. Equilibrium or Greg Watson Gh buffer being the only ones I know of. 2tsp at Water change should be fine. If on a weekly water change schedule, then mid week another 1/2-1 tsp of gh buffer would not hurt (but may not be necesary either)
One last bit of advice is, always try and double check any advice you are given, whether LFS or helpful internet folks. This forum and others are really helpful, as are most people. But every tank is different. So what works great for one person, may be a disaster for another. I can tell you that I have killed more fish and spent more money in two years of plant keeping than I had in 25 years of fish keeping.
Zezmo said:
That's probably the best advise I have heard in a long time. I do the same with everything when i reseach any topic. I wait until i find many web sites or posts relaying the same information before i act.
No body is perfect. I do give bad advice (not that I intend to) and tanks, fish, and plants are differernt for each person (mainly due to different water parameters).
PS. I agree with the buffering on the KH that a stable KH is best and chasing a parameter sucks, but by looking at his tap reading of <1 KH (if that is a true number), he is undoubtable going to have to buffer. agreed that the OP should have someone recheck his numbers before jumping the gun.
Ok, guys.
Last weekend, I added some baking soda to increase my KH and to balance out the CO2 injection. Then, I read here that a KH of 1 is fine, so I shouldn't have added the baking soda.
This week my tank turn so green that I could not see the back of the tank. Today, I did an approximately 80% water change. At least the tank is clearer now then it was in the last two weeks. I cleaned out several plants that were not looking well at all and also all dead material. I also found out my CO2 diffusion was completely plugged with algae growth.
Currently my KH is 1, GH is 1, and pH is 7.8 (by two different pH tests). I have a second KH and GH test kit on order. The local fish stores do not have any different test kits than what I have and may not even have a GH or KH test kit (PetSmart does not even sell one here), I also feel like I can count drops as the directions dictate, thus local fish stores will be no further help to test water. So, either believe me on my values or there are no test kits available that are reliable or accurate. I have already spent over $100 on test kits.
I have on order, which should arrive next week, my second GH and KH test kit, phosphate test kit, Seachem's full line of nutrients, and another book on aquarium plants, which will make my third on specifically aquarium plants. The following week, I will also have a new CO2 diffuser arrive, which will be the ladder type.
To be very honest, this has been so extremely frustrating, that I am about to give up on plants, except for maybe some extremely low light plants, go back to my basic 50 watts of light, and keep a very nice aquarium of fish. Until I get my new supplies in, my lighting will be on only a very limited time, thus a near blackout - again. When it arrives, I will go through the new book, do my best on water values, and give this one more try. My tank was healthy and looked beautiful with fish only, so I may just go back to that. I have been planning a planted tank for one year and researched everything I could fine on this site, other sites, books, and local fish store personnel. I have not made this step blindly in the least, but it sure seems that I have gotten extremely varied opinions and even contridictory advice on just about every aspect. I know you guys don't give poor advice and I appreciate everything I can get. This has just been an extremely frustrating and angering experience.
So, with all that said and after the venting, any further advice until I get the test kits in and water additives in?
Truly, thanks for all you help. I am just so frustrated with how all this has taken place.
Last weekend, I added some baking soda to increase my KH and to balance out the CO2 injection. Then, I read here that a KH of 1 is fine, so I shouldn't have added the baking soda.
This week my tank turn so green that I could not see the back of the tank. Today, I did an approximately 80% water change. At least the tank is clearer now then it was in the last two weeks. I cleaned out several plants that were not looking well at all and also all dead material. I also found out my CO2 diffusion was completely plugged with algae growth.
Currently my KH is 1, GH is 1, and pH is 7.8 (by two different pH tests). I have a second KH and GH test kit on order. The local fish stores do not have any different test kits than what I have and may not even have a GH or KH test kit (PetSmart does not even sell one here), I also feel like I can count drops as the directions dictate, thus local fish stores will be no further help to test water. So, either believe me on my values or there are no test kits available that are reliable or accurate. I have already spent over $100 on test kits.
I have on order, which should arrive next week, my second GH and KH test kit, phosphate test kit, Seachem's full line of nutrients, and another book on aquarium plants, which will make my third on specifically aquarium plants. The following week, I will also have a new CO2 diffuser arrive, which will be the ladder type.
To be very honest, this has been so extremely frustrating, that I am about to give up on plants, except for maybe some extremely low light plants, go back to my basic 50 watts of light, and keep a very nice aquarium of fish. Until I get my new supplies in, my lighting will be on only a very limited time, thus a near blackout - again. When it arrives, I will go through the new book, do my best on water values, and give this one more try. My tank was healthy and looked beautiful with fish only, so I may just go back to that. I have been planning a planted tank for one year and researched everything I could fine on this site, other sites, books, and local fish store personnel. I have not made this step blindly in the least, but it sure seems that I have gotten extremely varied opinions and even contridictory advice on just about every aspect. I know you guys don't give poor advice and I appreciate everything I can get. This has just been an extremely frustrating and angering experience.
So, with all that said and after the venting, any further advice until I get the test kits in and water additives in?
Truly, thanks for all you help. I am just so frustrated with how all this has taken place.
Please vent on.
a KH of 1 and a target pH of 6.0 would put you at a CO2 of 30 PPM so it can be done, but my concern was you listed your tap water reading of <1KH. with performing weekly 50% PWC's are you going to be able to maintain a KH of 1? this is something that i cannot not answer. so you may or may not have to add baking soda.
Green water is normally a sign of higher light and limiting NO3.
The biggest problem you have or had rather, is by introducing such a high light without having the supporting ferts.
Once your plants start to consume more nutrients from the water and one of the nutrients becomes limited, that is a recipe for algae. (as you can see).
once you get the ferts in and you get the schedule down and the CO2 going in the proper range, the lighting will able to be increased back up and you are going to love it.
It's just going to take some time. We are going to be here for you and the bumps in the road along the way.
HTH
EDIT:
did you read thru the link that Zezmo posted about EI dosing? and more importantly the Recommended Reading Sticky that Purrbox mentioned?
Rupret said:
a KH of 1 and a target pH of 6.0 would put you at a CO2 of 30 PPM so it can be done, but my concern was you listed your tap water reading of <1KH. with performing weekly 50% PWC's are you going to be able to maintain a KH of 1? this is something that i cannot not answer. so you may or may not have to add baking soda.
Green water is normally a sign of higher light and limiting NO3.
The biggest problem you have or had rather, is by introducing such a high light without having the supporting ferts.
Once your plants start to consume more nutrients from the water and one of the nutrients becomes limited, that is a recipe for algae. (as you can see).
once you get the ferts in and you get the schedule down and the CO2 going in the proper range, the lighting will able to be increased back up and you are going to love it.
It's just going to take some time. We are going to be here for you and the bumps in the road along the way.
HTH
EDIT:
did you read thru the link that Zezmo posted about EI dosing? and more importantly the Recommended Reading Sticky that Purrbox mentioned?
can I get a big dog or whoever to give this thread a once over.
seems this guy is having some major problems and I hope I am not giving him the wrong advice.
Devilishturtles, An t-iasg, malkore, Fluff, Jchillin, czcz, Fishyfanatic, Zezmo, purrbox, Plantbrain, Rich, ect..
It would just be nice if someone could back me up or correct me. Thanks, Randy.
seems this guy is having some major problems and I hope I am not giving him the wrong advice.
Devilishturtles, An t-iasg, malkore, Fluff, Jchillin, czcz, Fishyfanatic, Zezmo, purrbox, Plantbrain, Rich, ect..
It would just be nice if someone could back me up or correct me. Thanks, Randy.
Zezmo
Aquarium Advice Addict
I hear your frustration. Stick with it, you can be successful with plants.
Do a search on Green Water on this forum, you will find all the info you need on that particular problem. I will say that without a Diatom Filter, or a UV Sterilizer the solution is to fix the nutrient problems (see below) and have patience.
Your Ph and Kh to not match, that suggests something is buffering your Ph. This most likely makes it so you can not use the CO2 charts to figure your CO2. It sounds like you have a direct CO2 test. My Red Sea Master test kit has one. It always correlates well with the Ph/Kh/CO2 charts.
Most Kh kits have a starting color and a finish color. If your Kh is <1, then the test will go to the finish color on the first drop. Whether or not it is needed, you can safely add Baking Soda to buffer your Kh. 3 tsp at water change should be just about right for your tank.
Bottom line... You have High Light. You have CO2, but it is either too low or not diffusing well enough. You must fertilize constantly and consistently.
The new ladder you bought will not be adequate for a tank your size (sorry to have to tell you that). An easy method of diffusion is to run the CO2 bubble directly into a Power Head inlet. This will work very well on a larger tank like yours.
Your seachem macro ferts will not last you very long. They are expensive too. There is a cheap reliable alternative.
goto: http://www.gregwatson.com/DryAquaticFertilizers.asp
and buy...
CSM+B Plantex or Tropica Plant Nutrition Liquid (TMG) or Flourish Comprehensive
Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)
Mono Potassium Phosphate (KH2P04)
Potassium Sulfate (K2S04)
Barr's GH Booster or Seachem's Equilibrium
This fert routine is widely used and prooven successful for tank your size. (125 Gallon)
1 1/2 tsp KNO3 or 13 tsp Seachem Nitrogen 3x a week (Sun, Tue, Thur)
1/8 tsp KH2P04 or 20 tsp Seachem Phosphorus 3x a week (Sun, Tue, Thur)
1/2-3/4 tsp K2S04 or 20 tsp Seachem P0tassium (only 8 tsp if also using KNO3) 3x a week (Sun, Tue, Thur)
½ tsp of Dry CSM+B or 3 tsp (30ml) of Liquid Trace 3x a week (Mon, Wed, Fri)
50% weekly water change on Sat or Sun
Yes, the Seachem macros are that weak by comparison to dry ferts.
The micro's and macro's on opposite days to keep certain elements from binding together and becoming unavailable to your plants.
Add the baking soda (3 tsp) and the GH booster (3 tsp) after the 50% water change.
There are many ways to be successful in planted aquariums. The things I am suggesting to you are a proven formula for growing plants and not growing algae in a high light CO2 injected tank. You can simply follow the formula, the pattern, until you understand more for yourself and then choose to experiemnt with other methods.
Fert Routine Ref: http://www.barrreport.com/
Fert Lever Ref: http://webpages.charter.net/zezmo/EI-DoseRoutine_v4_public.xls
Do a search on Green Water on this forum, you will find all the info you need on that particular problem. I will say that without a Diatom Filter, or a UV Sterilizer the solution is to fix the nutrient problems (see below) and have patience.
Your Ph and Kh to not match, that suggests something is buffering your Ph. This most likely makes it so you can not use the CO2 charts to figure your CO2. It sounds like you have a direct CO2 test. My Red Sea Master test kit has one. It always correlates well with the Ph/Kh/CO2 charts.
Most Kh kits have a starting color and a finish color. If your Kh is <1, then the test will go to the finish color on the first drop. Whether or not it is needed, you can safely add Baking Soda to buffer your Kh. 3 tsp at water change should be just about right for your tank.
Bottom line... You have High Light. You have CO2, but it is either too low or not diffusing well enough. You must fertilize constantly and consistently.
The new ladder you bought will not be adequate for a tank your size (sorry to have to tell you that). An easy method of diffusion is to run the CO2 bubble directly into a Power Head inlet. This will work very well on a larger tank like yours.
Your seachem macro ferts will not last you very long. They are expensive too. There is a cheap reliable alternative.
goto: http://www.gregwatson.com/DryAquaticFertilizers.asp
and buy...
CSM+B Plantex or Tropica Plant Nutrition Liquid (TMG) or Flourish Comprehensive
Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)
Mono Potassium Phosphate (KH2P04)
Potassium Sulfate (K2S04)
Barr's GH Booster or Seachem's Equilibrium
This fert routine is widely used and prooven successful for tank your size. (125 Gallon)
1 1/2 tsp KNO3 or 13 tsp Seachem Nitrogen 3x a week (Sun, Tue, Thur)
1/8 tsp KH2P04 or 20 tsp Seachem Phosphorus 3x a week (Sun, Tue, Thur)
1/2-3/4 tsp K2S04 or 20 tsp Seachem P0tassium (only 8 tsp if also using KNO3) 3x a week (Sun, Tue, Thur)
½ tsp of Dry CSM+B or 3 tsp (30ml) of Liquid Trace 3x a week (Mon, Wed, Fri)
50% weekly water change on Sat or Sun
Yes, the Seachem macros are that weak by comparison to dry ferts.
The micro's and macro's on opposite days to keep certain elements from binding together and becoming unavailable to your plants.
Add the baking soda (3 tsp) and the GH booster (3 tsp) after the 50% water change.
There are many ways to be successful in planted aquariums. The things I am suggesting to you are a proven formula for growing plants and not growing algae in a high light CO2 injected tank. You can simply follow the formula, the pattern, until you understand more for yourself and then choose to experiemnt with other methods.
Fert Routine Ref: http://www.barrreport.com/
Fert Lever Ref: http://webpages.charter.net/zezmo/EI-DoseRoutine_v4_public.xls
Can I be a Big Cat instead of a Big Dog?
Anyway, Rkilling is giving you solid advice. High light without the supporting CO2 and Ferts is a recipe for Algae. This is why we recommended that you cut back on the lighting until you got your CO2 and Ferts in order. Once you've got your CO2 levels at or above 30ppm and Ferts ready to dose, you can turn the lights back up to full power. I would definatley recommend giving EI a shot for your dosing as it means less testing and related frusteration. Someone else will need to check over Rkillings recommended dosing levels as I'm not as familiar with EI dosing on larger tanks.
You can get your tank to where you want it, it's just a matter of getting all the necessary parts together and working in unison.
EDIT
I dug up the Alternate Method for Calculating CO2 Levels for you. Since your KH and pH don't calculate to about 3ppm CO2 in rested tap water, you've got a buffer present that is invalidating the KH/pH relationship. You'll need to use this method instead of the charts and calculators.
Anyway, Rkilling is giving you solid advice. High light without the supporting CO2 and Ferts is a recipe for Algae. This is why we recommended that you cut back on the lighting until you got your CO2 and Ferts in order. Once you've got your CO2 levels at or above 30ppm and Ferts ready to dose, you can turn the lights back up to full power. I would definatley recommend giving EI a shot for your dosing as it means less testing and related frusteration. Someone else will need to check over Rkillings recommended dosing levels as I'm not as familiar with EI dosing on larger tanks.
You can get your tank to where you want it, it's just a matter of getting all the necessary parts together and working in unison.
EDIT
I dug up the Alternate Method for Calculating CO2 Levels for you. Since your KH and pH don't calculate to about 3ppm CO2 in rested tap water, you've got a buffer present that is invalidating the KH/pH relationship. You'll need to use this method instead of the charts and calculators.
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