I'm lost when it comes to ferts...

[Satsumas]

I am yet another person who is lost when it comes to dosing ferts.
I have read some info on this 'EI' and it makes me even more confused
I dont know what to dose with, when to dose and what does what.
I understand the macro & micro nutrients but thats about it!

The tank i will be dosing is a 20gal long which has been cycled for a couple of weeks now. i have a 96W CF light fixture with a daylight and 50-50 bulb so the wpg should be around 2.8 shouldn't it?

I would like to have a healthy, heavily planted tank so a good dosing scheme is essential.
I have some 'nutrient sponges' in the tank at the moment and i had to take out the big leaved hygro's (not sure what sort) because the leaves were see-through and very flimsy. The roots looked healthy though so it seems the eco complete is doing it's job. Now i just need something for the leaves, is there an all round fertilizer that offers something of everything?

Any help is appriciated. TIA

[rkilling1]

Here is EI:

"Overview
The Estimative Index (EI) is a straightforward method for providing nutrients for a planted tank. The idea behind EI is simply introducing an excess amount of nutrients within an aquarium, throughout the week. This excess of nutrients floods the water column and feeds the plants. This is an estimative method; measuring specific nutrient uptake rates is not necessary and no test kits are involved. EI provides a surplus of nutrients that helps to prevents plant deficiencies, and allows plant growth unhendered. Most algae releated issues are due to plant deficiencies rather than excess nutrient levels(Ammonium/NH4 + is the exception).

Basically you add a slight excess of nutrients to prevent anything from running out, then do a large water change at the end of the week to prevent anything from building up. This allows you to maintain a range of nutrients without ever using a test kit.

The water change generally takes about the same amount of time once you haul out the hoses etc do the water change so the time and work difference between a 25 % and 50% water change is fairly small.

The process of which this is done is simple. Each day (or 2-3x a week, weekly for low light tanks) fertilizers are dosed, and the nutrients are absorbed by the plants. With this method being estimative, we can dose fertilizers according to general guidelines suited for our particular setup (see below for regime). At the end of the week, one performs a 50% water change to ‘reset’ the nutrient load in the entire system. And then the entire dosing regime is repeated. The hobbyists can do larger(which will afford more accuracy) or smaller water change routines, but 50% is just guide line.

The primary fertilizers are the macro nutrients - Nitrogen (N), Phosphorous (P), Potassium (K), and the micro nutrients – trace elements (Plantex CSM+B, Flourish, Tropica Master Grow-TMG). Iron (Fe) can also be supplemented if necessary.

The Estimative Index method works best for a high light and well planted aquarium. However it is not limited to higher light setups, smaller quantities of fertilizers can be dosed if low light is used. Also, the frequency may be reduced to 1-2x a week at low light(1.5-2w/gal).

General Dosing Guideline for High Light and well planted aquariums.

10- 20 Gallon Aquariums
+/- 1/8 tsp KNO3 (N) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp KH2PO4 (P) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp K2SO4 (K) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp (2ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change


20-40 Gallon Aquariums
+/- ¼ tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- 1/16 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- 1/16 tsp K2S04 3x a week
+/- 1/16 tsp (5ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change


40-60 Gallon Aquariums
+/- 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- 1/8 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- 1/8 tsp K2S04 3x a week
+/- 1/8 (10ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change


60 – 80 Gallon Aquariums
+/- 3/4 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- 3/16 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- 1/4 tsp K2S04 3x a week
+/- ¼ tsp (15ml) Trace 3x a week
50% weekly water change


100 - 125 Gallon Aquarium
+/- 1 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- ½ tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- ½ tsp K2S04 3x a week
+/- ½ tsp (30ml) Trace 3x a week
50% weekly water change

Example Dosing Regime for 29 Gallon:
See attached file.

EI target ranges
CO2 range 20-30 ppm
NO3 range 5-30 ppm
K+ range 10-30 ppm
PO4 range 1.0-2.0 ppm
Fe 0.2-0.5ppm or higher
GH range 3-5 degrees ~ 50ppm or higher
KH range 3-5

See dosing calculators for additional dosing guides for Fe, etc.

Where to buy fertilizers?
www.gregwatson.com can provide you with the necessary chemicals for dry and liquid dosing of the above. For micro - trace elements, Plantex CSM+B, Seachem Flourish, and Tropica Master Grow (TMG) are equivalent to each other. www.bigalsonline.com for the Seachem and TMG brands.

1 lb of each for Greg Watson Chemicals will last at least 1 year:

Plantex CSM+B
Potassium Nitrate KN03
Monopotassium Phosphate KH2PO4
Potassium Sulfate K2S04

Special Notes:

Providing optimal CO2 levels of at least 30 ppm are necessary for plants to prosper. If algae issue arise, remove all visible algae and infected leaves. Recheck CO2 levels, and possibly reduce and adjust the lighting period.

Direct dry dosing into the tank is perfectly fine. Many dose straight into, or they dissolve each daily amounts in water before adding. Plantex CSM+B is often mixed into solution for liquid dosing. 1 tablespoon to 250ml water is equivalent to: 20 ml = 1/4 teaspoon of dry Plantex. This solution is stored in refrigerators to prevent mold from forming within the container. HCL can be added to prevent the mold.

Small dosing teaspoons (smidgen, dash, pinch) can be found at Linen & Things, Bed Bath and Beyond, Wal-Mart, dollar stores, eBay and other online retailers. To identify the specific measurements of your smidgen, dash, pinch set, a 1/8 tsp should fill a ¼ tsp in 2 tries, 1/16 tsp in 4 tries, and a 1/32 tsp in 8 tries.


Sticking to a good dosing regime will make your plants flourish, and keep you delighted! If you seek more in depth discussion about EI, there are two other articles here.

John N and Tom Barr"

From: http://www.barrreport.com/articles/1...ive-index.html

That tells you what to dose, how much, and when.

Also, your fixture only has one bulb not two. It is a single 50/50 bulb, meaning it is half daylight and half actinic.

And yes, you are in the 3 WPG ballpark.

[Jchillin]

Ferts are pretty simple, think of it this way. The macros are naturally produced elements like Nitrate, Phosphate and Potassium. The micros are minerals such as Iron, magnesium, borum, etc.

The IE model is sort of like fert overdosing so you don't run out of any particular fert and you don't have to test your levels. At the end of the week, you tank your tank through a rehab process (50% water change) and then start the addiction all over again.

The easiest method of fertilizing your tank through this method is to use Greg Watson's dry ferts, mix a batch of each and dose the macros and micros on alternate days. Chuck Gadd's calculator provides the easiest method of mixing your solutions.

I currently use KNO3 and CSM+B. I have yet to see a need for phoshates but I do have some on hand if needed.

HTH.

[Satsumas]

I'm still lost!
I dont know what to dose and also i dont know all the abbreviations either!

[Purrbox]

EI (Estimative Index) is usually used with dry ferts which can be ordered from Greg Watson, and as a result the abbreviations for the dry ferts are generally used when describing how to dose according to EI.

KNO3 = Potassium Nitrate and is used primarily for dosing Nitrates but provides some Potassium as well (a Macro Fert)
K2SO4 = Potassium Sulfate and is used for dosing Potassium (a Macro Fert)
KH2PO4 = Mono Potassium Phosphate is used for dosing Phosphates (a Macro Fert)
CSM+B = CSM plus Boron (I have no idea what the CSM stands for) and is used for Traces (aka Micro Ferts)

If you download Chuck's Calculator you'll see all the ferts listed by their chemical abbreviations.

Ferts can be very daunting at first, but once you get going with it you'll find that it makes a lot more sense rather quickly. Start with ordering Nitrate, Phosphate, Potassium and a good Trace mix and then go from there. Rkilling1 has given you links to both Greg Watson and Big Als depending on whether you want to start with dry ferts (much more cost effective but take a tiny bit more effort to understand) or a good brand name like SeaChem or Tropica.

[7Enigma]

I have a 20gallon high and have a 65w bulb (not 50/50) so we have about the same amount of light and same tank size. I also have DIY CO2 but have a pressurized setup yet to be installed. I have settled on a dosing regime that I feel slightly overdoses on the nutrients so you will never bottom out. I do a 50% water change every Friday and trim about every week to week and a half depending on growth. Here's what I purchased and what I dose:

*All were purchased from Greg Watson except for the Flourish Excel*

Friday with the 50% PWC
-1/2tsp potassium sulfate (this is for potassium)
-1/4tsp potassium nitrAte (this is for nitrAte)
-1/2tsp magnesium sulfate (this is for magnesium)
-1/2tsp calcium chloride (this is for calcium and I will be switching to 1/2 chloride and 1/2 sulfate to lessen the amount of salt added, both of which are sold by Greg)
-1/2tsp baking soda (this is to raise the KH so my pH stays consistent)
-1/4tsp CSM+B (this is for Iron and traces)
-1-1.5 capfuls of Excel (carbon source since my DIY fluctuates)

On saturday:

-1/16 to 1/32 tsp of potassium phosphate (for phosphate, never dose with iron). Basically I use the 1/4tsp measuring spoon and just put a small amount in it.

On sunday, Tuesday, Thursday:

-1/4tsp potassium sulfate
-1/16th to 1/32nd tsp of CSM+B (again I eyeball a small amount)

On Monday, Wednesday:

-1/16th to 1/32nd tsp of potassium phosphate
-1/4tsp calcium chloride
-1/4tsp magnesium sulfate

I normally dump in 1/4 to 1/2 capful of Excel every or every other day (depending on if I remember). It's more of an insurance thing against my DIY CO2 not supplying ample amounts.

Couple things to note about my tank:

-HIGH bioload, I probably could get away with zero nitrAte added with a water change, but again having slightly more than needed is ALWAYS better than too little. The 50% PWC at the end of the week also limits the buildup and every once in a while I'll check the nitrAte levels to make sure its not extreme (too low or high). Until you understand how quickly your nitrAte is being depleted (or depleted at all) I would recommend testing frequently and probably at least twice a week adding 1/4tsp of potassium nitrAte (with the water change and then say Tuesday). I have the AP liquid test kit and like to keep it in a deep orange color, on the verge of slightly red (~30-40ppm). Again this fluctuates greatly after a trim or heavy gravel vac/diatom filtering.

-GH measures 10 degrees but I was seeing deficiency symptoms that made NO SENSE. I have now started dosing magnesium and calcium (since everything else was taken care of by the other ferts) and the deficiencies have all but gone away. This just goes to show even with a high GH it might be coming from only one source or the test might be interacting with some other molecule, or the element is in a form the plant cannot use (I have NOT guinea-pigged my tank to isolate which one is the problem, since it doesn't matter to me for the slight extra cost of ferts). I'd equate it to the insoluble complex that phosphate and iron makes if they are both dosed at the same time. They are both present in the water, but cannot readily be used.

So again, this is not exactly what you need to do since every tank and water supply is different, but this is a good starting point that you can tinker with. If you need any help with specifics I missed (or poorly wrote) let me know.

HTH,

justin

[Satsumas]

Thanks for the replies, it's all becoming clearer now. I'll read through this thread a few times over and hopefully then i'll understand it all more clearly.

I understand that plants need these nutrients to flourish but it's me understanding them thats the problem. I have no idea where to start with the dosage of individual compounds but no doubt it will be similair to yours 7Enigma.

[kaz]

how many of you all do thie EI rather than another system?

[7Enigma]

Originally Posted by kaz

how many of you all do thie EI rather than another system?

I think I, like a lot of people, started with test kits and measuring "exactly" what the levels were and then like me was still seeing deficiency symptoms that don't match the numbers. I was against EI from the beginning both for cost and simply on principle. Once I started to find the test kits are not foolproof (again remember most of these kits use caustic reagents to break up molecules so you can see exactly how much of a certain nutrient is present, but that doesn't mean the PLANT can use it) I began to move towards EI.

I still measure my levels occassionally depending on what I'm seeing in the tank, or after a big cleaning (a good diatom filtering will cause a previously stable or increasing nitrAte level to drastically drop and could bottom out), but now dose small amounts every day to make sure there is always available nutrients in a usable version for the plant.

[JRagg]

Originally Posted by kaz

how many of you all do thie EI rather than another system?

I switched to EI and pressurized CO2 and all of my problems went away. Seriously, it was like the magic bullet.