JBJ Pico Journal

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It also possible that the HC you received was actually grown emersed, so the die off would be a result of it adjusting to submersed growth.

Thanks Joy. I was wondering about that. The elevated mound you see up front, on the left, is HC growing on a piece of lava rock. All I did was place that in the aquarium... no rough handling at all... and that shows significant die off.

- Larry
 
Cycling with SafeStart - Why are Nitrates dropping?

I intended to see if SafeStart actually shortens the cycling time. My plans were thwarted by Aquariumplants.com as they forgot to include SafeStart with my plant shipment. So the cycle began on it's own, several days prior to adding SafeStart. No doubt there were some nitrifying bacteria in the plants, and there was also enough ammonia from decaying plants and snail poop to get the cycle started.

On day 6, the SafeStart arrived and I added 30 cc to the tank. SafeStart contains Nitrosomonas, Nitrosospira and Nitrospira bacteria.. live, in a stabile state. It does not require freezing (and should not be frozen).

Ammonia had already fallen to zero before SafeStart was added, but Nitrites were high. After adding SafeStart, Nitrites fell... and so did the Nitrates. Usually, Nitrates increase as Nitrites fall. But look what happened here. Four days after adding SafeStart, Nitrites and Nitrates were zero. I doubt that the 25% PWC was responsible for dropping the Nitrates to zero.

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It is my understanding that Ammonia is converted to Nitrites which are converted to Nitrates... and that Nitrates are removed by partial water changes. What do you think is going on here? There should be enough Ammonia from the shrimp and snails to keep the cycle going... especially with the amount of plant decay that I've had due to die off (which has stabilized and is now starting to reverse itself). Can rapid plant growth lower Nitrates to this degree?

Two things not mentioned before:
1) I decided to add a few Endler's so I traded the Aqua Clear 20 for an Aqua Clear 30. The latter can be used on a 30 gallon aquarium... so I have 10 times the filter I need for my 3 gallon Pico. 2) On 11/20, I set up my CO2, running it only when the lights are on, and keeping the CO2 levels at 25 ppm

Here is the graph of the above chart. Please note that the plots are logarithmic - not linear.

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I'm going to add fish either today or tomorrow. It's going to be interesting to see what happens to the nitrogen byproducts with fish added.
 
Both snails and shrimp add a miniscule bioload to the tank. I would not be surprised if you were experiencing die-off of the nitrifying bacteria due to a lack of ammonia. Less ammonia means fewer nitrates, of course.
 
Both snails and shrimp add a miniscule bioload to the tank. I would not be surprised if you were experiencing die-off of the nitrifying bacteria due to a lack of ammonia. Less ammonia means fewer nitrates, of course.

Good points, Mike, but that doesn't seem to be the case this time (see below). I agree that 18 RCS and a few snails present a very small bio-load - especially for my (relatively) huge filter - but this is a very small aquarium. Die off of bacteria is not likely to lower the Nitrate level. Do you think the plants did that?:confused:

To test viability of nitrification bacteria in my tank, I took one drop of 10% Ammonium Hydroxide and diluted that with 10 cc of distilled water. Then I took one drop of that, and added it to my tank. (I know... not too smart as RCS are very sensitive to ammonia - but I was sure my pH was 7 and not higher, so that the Total Free Ammonia was at minimal levels.) I tested the tank water and detected 0.5 to 1.0 ppm ammonia. One hour later I re-tested the water and found 0.0 levels of ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. So I have not experienced die of Nitrification bacteria.

-Larry-
 
Plants definately do consume Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate. They most certainly can cause these levels to drop to 0 if the levels are low enough and the plant density is high enough (especially fast growing stem plants).
 
Thanks, PB. That makes a lot of sense.

I noticed (as shown on the graph) that the Nitrates started to fall after adding CO2 and before adding SafeStart. And I have Needle nose Ludwigia that is growing like mad.
 
+++++++ thread and tank. I'm certain you'll work through the HC issue. Two cents: I've tried growing it on rocks and epiphytically with no love, though I know lots of skilled aquascapers use that method. It definitely does fine floated, but I think it would simply rather be rooted. Niko on APC has said a few times he thinks its only appreciated emergent and the small leaves we see in our aquariums are simply a plant not reaching its potential. Sure looks cool when pearling though ;)

Then I took one drop of that, and added it to my tank. (I know... not too smart as RCS are very sensitive to ammonia - but I was sure my pH was 7 and not higher, so that the Total Free Ammonia was at minimal levels.) I tested the tank water and detected 0.5 to 1.0 ppm ammonia. One hour later I re-tested the water and found 0.0 levels of ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. So I have not experienced die of Nitrification bacteria.
As you may know, when introducing nitrogen as ammonia/ammonium or nitrate plants will first grab the N from ammonia/ammonium, one of the major reasons plants are such great biofilters. For a bit of time a few years ago I dosed what I thought was Calcium Nitrate but actually had Ammonia, and did it with very nice growth (and greenwater ;) ) in a plant only tank, with NH3/4 becoming undetectable within an hour of ~.25ppm dosing. With your increasing plant mass and a plant like the needle leaved Ludwigias I wonder if you're really just seeing established plants be opportunistic. I also wonder how much if any bacteria can outcompete such plants.

Checked out Scarlet Badis / Dario dario?
 
Please welcome...

...the new owners of the aquarium. :wave:

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Note that the RCS couldn't care less about the Endler's.

(Still waiting for my CO2 diffuser. The current device, shown, is not permanent.)
 
Nitrate Riddle Solved

As you may know, when introducing nitrogen as ammonia/ammonium or nitrate plants will first grab the N from ammonia/ammonium, one of the major reasons plants are such great biofilters.

Right you are my friend! During the day, when the CO2 is running and the lights are on, the plants remove Nitrates from the water. During the dark hours, Nitrates slowly accumulate.

After adding 10 Endler's Livebearers... a significant bio-load for a 3 gallon tank... I measured Nitrates twice a day: once before the lights and CO2 came on and then about 6 hours after the lights and CO2 were activated. I found that the Nitrates were just measurable at 1 ppm before the plants did their thing. Nitrate then fell to zero after plant growth resumed.

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Note that the Log plot accentuates the over-night accumulation of Nitrates. They reached only 1 ppm before the lights came on. Also, the graph is not accurate in this regard: I performed measurements twice a day only for that last two days. So except for the last two days, the second daily data points represent copied data from the AM measurements.

I also wonder how much if any bacteria can outcompete such plants.

I suspect that the bacteria in the filter, plant substrate, etc., do play a role in keeping that build up of Nitrates to a minimum, because I never saw a build up in Ammonia or in Nitrites in the early AM reading... but I am not willing to turn off the filter at night to prove it.

So you and PurrBox hit the nail on the head. The plants remove most of the Nitrates.
 
Nice. For clarity, I'm suggesting that your ~1ppm NH3 drop over a couple days wasn't just nitrifying bacteria, but the plants taking hold. Walstad (in Ecology of the Planted Aquarium) suggests plants prefer ammonia to nitrate, and when presented with both shows measurables showing that N is taken from NH3 before NO3. (As you know, keep in mind that N is much higher in mass percentage with ammonia than nitrate if you decide to dose it again as a nutrient experiment, though.)

I really think it reads that NO3 is a total limiting nutrient, which (assuming your tap is not rich in P), probably means P and K are, too. Have you already started measuring around a dosing plan? Else I fear your established plants will not be able to compete with algae.

Awesome fish but I think your plants will still outcompete that bioload easily. I would not be surprised if you lose that 1ppm Nitrate (and relatively little N) closer to the beginning or middle of your photoperiod than the end.
 
czcz, I agree completely with your analysis. Slightly over an hour into today's light cycle, the NO3 dropped to zero.

I dose nitrogen, Fe, and phosphates (very sparingly on the phosphates). I don't use multi ferts because many contain Cu and the RCS wouldn't like copper.

While I love measuring parameters (can you tell :) ) I use an ancient method called "winging it." I'm a firm believer that when all else fails, look at the aquarium and see how the flora and the fauna are doing.

So far, my plants are growing nicely. The HC starts to pearl an hour after lights/CO2 come on and continue doing so until lights/CO2 off. Algae is nearly absent (thanks in part to my not over-dosing and to a lesser extent to my active RCS). The Endler's are fat and sassy and I just saw my first fry this afternoon.
 
...I never see my plants pearling is that a problem?

An aquarium without pearls is like an evening without stars.

Only kidding. Ben, I read your 10 gal. log and can't recall mention of your lighting system. Maybe it's the photography, but I'd guess your running under 3 watts per gallon? And no CO2? You have to "push" your system (bright lights, CO2, Ferts) in order to get plants to produce O2 a rates that exceed the O2 saturation of the water in your tank. As you know, the pearls are the "excess" O2.

Anyway, it's not a problem if your plants aren't pearling. Many aquariums do fine in low light with plants that are adapted to low light levels. And not all plants exhibit pearling.
 
An aquarium without pearls is like an evening without stars.

Only kidding. Ben, I read your 10 gal. log and can't recall mention of your lighting system. Maybe it's the photography, but I'd guess your running under 3 watts per gallon? And no CO2? You have to "push" your system (bright lights, CO2, Ferts) in order to get plants to produce O2 a rates that exceed the O2 saturation of the water in your tank. As you know, the pearls are the "excess" O2.

Anyway, it's not a problem if your plants aren't pearling. Many aquariums do fine in low light with plants that are adapted to low light levels. And not all plants exhibit pearling.


Oh ok, well I just started using DIY co2 thing and i'm going to soon start using some fertz. Yeah I am running two 15 watt one 6500k one stock aquarium all-glass bulbs. So yes it is low-light. I was thinking about upgrading to a 36watt AH light fixture kit. But then I might get too high for my low light plants and will have to add co2 and fertz and I don't want to do that much yet.
 
Retraction - of a sort - about filter size

I've often thought that having a filter larger that the show tank would actually be an ideal filter to tank ratio... but that's an opinion only and is not backed up by personal experience.

Well, I'm certainly glad I added the qualifier at the end of my statement. As with so many concepts in this hobby, things are often more complex then they seem initially. So let me break this down a bit:

I failed to take several things into account. First, a larger filter volume will demand correspondingly greater amounts of ferts and more CO2 to keep the concentration of each proportional with the larger total volume of water. Second, the volume of water required during PWCs will also increase proportionately. Finally, if the filter size also increase the turbulence of the aquarium water at the surface, more CO2 will be lost to the atmosphere , necessitating even more CO2 to compensate for that loss.

So allow me to re-state my position: each aquarium, depending on its specific conditions, probably has an optimal size filter... and that can only be determined by experimentation. (What a cop-out.) :rolleyes:
 
Your original idea is still good, though. For what its worth, I had a similar thought when setting up my first tank and decided to drill (using a 10g sump/fuge on an 8g display tank), but in my case after realizing I had my target CO2 and fertilizer ppm, I may as well plant the sump (making it a fuge). Then I realized I could use alternating photoperiods to do a better job of maintaining targets and keeping uptake high. As time passed I gradually reduced volume in that connected tank but this was not because the method was poor (I just got into emersed aquatic plants).

Anyway, this link has all sorts of broken stuff (mostly the old AA acronym system), but you'll probably find some ideas from it: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f24/sump-fuge-wet-dry-for-high-light-planted-60804.html

(I am not allowed to edit that post and fix those references for some reason.)
 
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