My 20G Long Planted Tank

[AdamHorton]

All right. My new Current USA Nova Extreme 30" 2x24W T-5 10,000K - Freshwater - Lighting - T-5 Fixtures at BigalsOnline just arrived, and I placed it on my tank. It fit pretty well, I didn't have to make any modifications.

I started this thread because from the articles I've read, dealing with a real light like this one means that I have to pay careful attention to the nutrient levels. I'm still battling some http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f24/algae-issues-with-plants-125456.html and I think with a light like this it's very important to make sure everything is OK in this tank.

The only plant living in the tank is a java fern that I have attached to a piece of driftwood. Here are my best attempts to get a detailed picture of the aftermath of my algae battle (which I don't believe I've fixed the underlying cause).

Anyways, I'm wondering a few things right now. First, I want to order some plants this weekend and I'm wondering if there are any suggestions at the moment. I'm thinking of a few things:

Bobs Tropical Plants
Bobs Tropical Plants
Bobs Tropical Plants
Bobs Tropical Plants

Next, I'm wondering if there's anything I should do with the java fern to help it out. Please don't hesitate to tell me the obvious things I'm sure I'm missing. Also, if there's something I should be doing with the parameters of the tank, I'd sort of like to find out what was causing the previous algae problems.

Here's a FTS:

It's sort of recent, only a week or so old. There's about an inch of Flourite underneath the gravel substrate. If you need any more information about the tank's stats, I'll provide it. Thanks for your help.

 

[AdamHorton]

Some measurements, taken tonight.

Phosphate: a little more than 0.5 ppm
Nitrate: around 40 ppm
Temp: 78 F
I didn't measure ammonia and nitrite, but I'm sure they're zero.

Stock: 6 neon tetras, 6 black neon tetras, 4 zebra danios, 1 albino bristlenose pleco, 2 ghost shrimp, some MTS, and some pond snails still left.
Filtration: two AquaClear 20's, in each one I'm using one foam insert and one activated carbon insert. The tank started over two years ago.

 

[BigJim]

40ppm of nitrate would send me running for the Python for a PWC. I'd also dump the carbon and put another sponge in the AC20. The carbon doesn't last very long and a sponge would help add some more filtration. I only run carbon if I'm trying to remove medicine or something like that from the water. Never can have too much filtration.

Algae usually results from having an excess of some nutrients (including light). Try splitting your photo period. I had some success with turning my lights on at 5:45AM, off at 9:00AM, on again at 3:00PM, and off again at 9:15PM. Those 10,000K bulbs aren't ideal for plants either. 6700K is a much better color temperature. Just something to think about when it's time to change the bulbs.

Your fern looks fine to me. You might try DIY CO2 with that light. It works well for me on my 20L with 36W of T5 and 36W of spiral CFL.

 

[AdamHorton]

I agree with the nitrates -- I'm sort of recovering from some test kit happiness that you can read about in the "Algae Issues With Plants" thread I linked to. I'll be doing another PWC this weekend and that should bring it back down to a decent level. Would I be right in assuming that 20ppm of nitrate is a good target level for the plants?

One thing I forgot to mention is that I recently broke up the photo period (I think it was in that same thread). Anyways, the lights are on from 8AM-noon and then again from 4PM-10PM. That did help with the algae, but it didn't totally fix it. Something that really helped was when I did a blackout for a couple of days, so it makes sense that light could be part of the problem.

I'll probably replace the carbon with foam, and do the color temp. lights when it comes time for that.

The reason I asked about the fern is because of the algae on some of the leaves of the fern. Would it be a good idea to trim those leaves off? I really don't know if that would be good or bad for the plant...

I've looked into DIY CO2. How would I know if I should do it? Is there any such thing as a carbon test kit? (probably a dumb question)

 

[AdamHorton]

Just did a large PWC and measured the nitrates, they are about 10-15 ppm. I assume this is a good target range for nitrates.

It looks like I can't get Flourish chemicals locally, so I'll have to order them. I have some KNO3 already. I think I need to get some Flourish phosphate, but would the potassium be worth it? Also, how do I test for carbon?

 

[Purrbox]

You can pick up some NoSalt at the local grocery store for potassium dosing.

 

[Guyver]

As far as testing for CO2 - the way I test is by checking pH. With a constant water hardness (carbonate hardness, KH), your pH will swing as a result of the CO2 concentrations in the water. The lower the pH, the higher the concentration of CO2 in your tank. Plants consume CO2 during light periods and consume O2 during times of darkness, so you should see your pH assume a low level in the morning and climb slightly throughout the day. If you have a generally acidic pH (7.6 or higher), then you'll want to do CO2. If not, then I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[AdamHorton]

Very interesting. I took pH measurements of the tank last night at the end of the photo period and this morning at the beginning. It was 8.2 last night and 8.0 this morning. There's only one plant in the tank so I sort of expected a small swing. I'll be ordering more plants today and getting them this week. I assume that what you're saying applies more to when I have more plants in the tank?

 

[Guyver]

The swing, yes. The pH level, no. An 8.0 pH level is fairly high for a tropical tank, which either means your tap water is very acidic, or your plant is consuming CO2 and is causing a pH spike. Try testing the water directly out of the faucet. If there's a noticeable difference, then you will need to get CO2. If not, then I'm sure you'll be able to find some people on here that can help you with lowering your pH. Don't use phosphate buffers like pH Up pH Down - plants don't like them. Hope this helps!

Also, you might want to consider testing for hardness. API sells a liquid titration test kit that is very accurate and easy/fun to use. Low hardness can lead to large pH swings, while high hardness is a very effective buffer.

 

[AdamHorton]

I remember testing the pH of my tap water a few months ago and it was around 8 or so. I'll test it again when I get home tonight.

I ordered some plants and RCS from mgamer last night, so once those get here there will probably be pictures.

 

[7Enigma]

As far as testing for CO2 - the way I test is by checking pH. With a constant water hardness (carbonate hardness, KH), your pH will swing as a result of the CO2 concentrations in the water. The lower the pH, the higher the concentration of CO2 in your tank. Plants consume CO2 during light periods and consume O2 during times of darkness, so you should see your pH assume a low level in the morning and climb slightly throughout the day. If you have a generally acidic pH (7.6 or higher), then you'll want to do CO2. If not, then I wouldn't worry about it.

Yikes. Pretty much ignore everything Guyver has said...

OK here we go. The CHANGE in pH when you are adding CO2 will allow you to determine the amount of CO2 in the water. Having a low or high pH tap water means NOTHING about the amount of CO2 in the water. All it's telling you is how hard/soft your water is. Also alkaline/basic pH is >7, not <7 (that's acidic). Hard water like you have is great for planted tanks because you will most likely have ample amounts of the macronutrients calcium and magnesium. People with very soft water and high light levels sometimes have issues with nutrient deficiency of these.

Also, tap water needs to be set out overnight prior to measuring pH. Many times tap water contains a higher level of CO2 (due to line pressure) which will show up as a lower pH than once it's set out and equilibrated with the air. So if you want to compare tap water to tank water make sure you take the tap water sample the night before.

Also, pH swings caused by CO2 have been shown to have no harmful effects on fish (plants could care less). It is very unlikely due to your tap pH that you have soft water and so your buffering capacity with CO2 will be very good (not that it really matters as previously mentioned). I wouldn't bother with the hardness API kit in my opinion. Excel will not swing the pH btw.

Adam, Unless you are using a pH probe there is no way you can tell 8 from 8.2, the kits are just not accurate enough. A small difference in the amount of water you put in the vial, ambient/artificial light levels, and your own ability to discern a slight color change is just not possible. With a small plant (slow grower at that), no CO2, no fert dosing, you will not see a noticeable change.

Go to Big Al's online and buy a bottle of Flourish Excel. That will be the best way for you to avoid algae problems once you get more plants and need the extra CO2 (added benefit, Excel prevents quite a bit of algal growth). Instead of going the Flourish Trace, Potassium, etc. I would recommend investing in dry fertilizers. You can get them fairly cheap and they will last near forever. There's been a couple threads in the planted forum recently where sites have been mentioned to buy them (just search my name in the planted forum and look for the most recent posts).

You're running ~50w or so on a 20gallon which is a nice level that shouldn't allow you to get into too much trouble if you are dosing ferts. I would not go the DIY CO2 in my opinion. I did that, and did not care for the added problems a fluctuating CO2 level causes. Either stick with the Excel or jump in with both feet and get a compressed CO2 setup ($$$).

 

[AdamHorton]

I saw this article linked in some other post:

Measuring CO2 levels in a Planted Tank

I have a KH test kit at home. I'll run a quick KH test kit and I'm pretty sure that if I use the calculator in this article I'll find I have a low level of CO2 in my tank. Would this be a more reliable way of figuring out the CO2 level in my tank, or are my phosphate levels too high for this to work?

I'll look into Flourish Excel, I've heard a lot of people use it. As far as dry ferts, I already have dry KNO3. I imagine I need something for phosphate and *possibly* something for CO2 (if I should need it)? I can't imagine I'd need anything else, but I guess it would be good to know now. I've tried to find those as dry ferts locally but haven't had much luck.

 

[7Enigma]

I saw this article linked in some other post:

Measuring CO2 levels in a Planted Tank

I have a KH test kit at home. I'll run a quick KH test kit and I'm pretty sure that if I use the calculator in this article I'll find I have a low level of CO2 in my tank. Would this be a more reliable way of figuring out the CO2 level in my tank, or are my phosphate levels too high for this to work?

I'll look into Flourish Excel, I've heard a lot of people use it. As far as dry ferts, I already have dry KNO3. I imagine I need something for phosphate and *possibly* something for CO2 (if I should need it)? I can't imagine I'd need anything else, but I guess it would be good to know now. I've tried to find those as dry ferts locally but haven't had much luck.

No need to use the calculator. I can tell you you've got <3ppm CO2 in your tank as uninjected tanks have ambient water CO2 levels which are normally 2-3ppm if I remember correctly. You can test your KH level but it really doesn't matter unless you start injecting CO2. Again Excel won't effect the pH to a noticeable degree.

You need to cut back/stop dosing the potassium nitrAte. That is likely the cause of your 40ppm tank level (which is a bit high for the health of the fish). Potassium sulfate is the preferred chemical as it only adds potassium. Potassium phosphate is also used but isn't normally used if you already have adequate phosphate levels (which you do right now but might need some more once you get more plants). You would want a trace element mix that contains iron, I highly recommend CSM+B. If I was shopping for you I would pick up:

-Flourish Excel (CO2 source, most important thing that without will cause you all sorts of algae issues due to the higher lighting)
-potassium sulfate
-CSM+B (iron/trace suppliment)
-potassium phosphate (I rarely use this as I always have ample phosphate)

Other chemicals you probably don't need but can get to be sure:

-calcium sulfate (your water is probably hard enough you have ample calcium)
-container of epsom salt from the grocery store (this is magnesium sulfate, again you probably have adequate levels but it's cheap)

 

[AdamHorton]

Yeah I stopped dosing the KNO3 and did PWCs to get the nitrates back down.

I already have an iron/trace supplement, I don't remember what brand it is. I'll try and find dry ferts for those lovely potassium things you mentioned.

When I start dosing Excel, would that calculator be a good way to measure the CO2 level in the tank? I mainly asked about it so that I can have a good way of testing CO2 when the time comes.

The plants I ordered are:


Micro Swords
Limnophila Aromatica
Anubias Barteri Broad Leaf

 

[Guyver]

Sorry for the misinformation, looks like I've got a lot of studying to do

 

[AdamHorton]

Just for fun I tested the KH of the water. It was 5 mEq/L

 

[Purrbox]

To clarify, Flourish Excel is a source of carbon and not CO2. As such the CO2 calculations aren't helpful unless you are actually injecting CO2. Flourish Excel is only available for about 24hrs in a planted aquarium, so just follow the instructions on the label to ensure sufficient carbon levels. Please note that some plants like Vals and Anacharis often do not react well to Flourish Excel.

 

[7Enigma]

Thanks Purrbox. I was probably being confusing saying it was a CO2 source.

Guyver, don't worry; we all started at some point and I was just like you (trying to be helpful from near the start). Everything I've learned in the past 5 years has been from internet research and this forum!

Adam, that KH is perfect if you ever decide on CO2 injection. When I started I was dosing baking soda to take my KH from 2 degrees to 5 (where you are). Eventually I gave up after countless people said the pH swing wasn't detrimental to the fish and ever since I just ignore pH and everything goes well.

You might have problems with the Limnophila aromatica. If I remember correctly it is a very delicate plant that likes high light and soft water conditions. I think a long time ago a member on this forum sent me several plant species, and this was one of them I just couldn't grow (I have pretty hard water). I was dosing ferts and injecting CO2 and it just slowly withered away. Hopefully you have better luck because it is one of the most impressive FW plants I know of.

The anubias will be fantastic and a piece of cake to care for (it really is more of a decoration than a plant due to its slow growth). If you can find a spot for it to be UNDER another plant so it gets less light that's also a good idea (I tend to find algae likes to start on this plant due to the slow growth of the leaves and the buildup of sediment on them offering a nice home for algae to anchor).

Swords are great but most people recommend using a fertilizer root tab under the plant as they are heavy root feeders. Otherwise you can get nutrient deficiencies even though you might have ample amounts of fertilizers in the water column.

HTH

 

[Craigthor]

For a 20g Long you could always setup 2 2L bottles of DIY Co2, Set the first one up then a week later set the second one up. That way every other week you cna change one of the bottles out and keep a semi steady flow CO2 in the tank. Only thing you would need to do the DIY route is:

Sugar
Yeast
Room temp water
2 2L bottles cleaned with caps
air line tubing
Tee and a couple air line check valves
Bamboo chopstick for the diffuser.

Excel is a great additive but some plants will melt with Excel dosing and I don't feel it is a steady enough source of Carbon, it is also expensive in the long term.

The KH to PH relationship is almost worthless as so many things in the tank will effect the KH from rocks, driftwood, substrate, and evaporation. The PH change can only be measured accurately once you remove the water and let it sit out for 24 hours to off gass itself if you want to find the true PH of your tank and again driftwood leaching tannins, substrate choice / additives, CO2 injection will cause variable PH readings.

The PH change from CO2 is neglibile when it comes to your fish, also CO2 can benefit any planted aquarium no matter how low tech as it removes one of the 3 limiters of plant growth. Plant growth is limited by the following:

Lighting - WPG rule is over rated but a starting base. The lower hte light intensity the slower growth given it is the only limiter

CO2 - Plants intake the Carbon Dioxide during the lighted hours and release oxygen for into the water system great for the fish as you can get a higher saturation of O2 in the system and watching plants pearl is great.

Nutrients - A good dosing regime based on you style wether that would be EI (estimative index), PPS or PPS-Pro (much leaner style of dosing with few water changes but requires much more testing) I dose the following on my tank:

N - Potassium Nitrate KNO3
P - Potassium Phoshate Kh2PO4
K - Potassium Sulfate K2SO4

Along with a trace mix at a ratio of 4:1:1 of:

4 parts CSM+B
1 part Iron Chleate 13%
1 part Ferrous Gluconate

I mix my ratio as 4 tbsp CSM+B, 1 tbsp Iron Chleate, 1tbsp Ferrous Gluconate to 500mL of water. You then dose at a rate of 5mL per 20g 3x a week opposite of the NPK dosings.

For measuring the concentration of CO2 wether you go the DIY route or Pressurized a drop checker with a known 4dKH solution is the most accurate way to determine your CO2 levels. At an ideal 30ppm CO2 the drop checker with get a light green/ yellow look, At low CO2 it will start out blue and higher then 40ppm ususally goes yellow.

Craig

 

[7Enigma]

As someone who went the DIY route for over a year I think Excel or pressurized are really the only 2 good options.

The time aspect has to be seriously considered when mentioning DIY. To attempt stable CO2 levels you need to have your bottles incubated at a constant temperature so plan on a container with an aquarium heater (a few degree rise/drop can drastically affect CO2 production of the yeast which can wreck havoc from an algae standpoint, say hello BBA). You should sanitize/sterilize your bottles after each use with some boiling water to prevent bacterial contamination. It's really also not that cheap when compared to Excel (for a 20 gallon mind you). Larger tanks benefit from CO2 but smaller tanks can actually be cheaper when using Excel (when you factor in sugar/yeast costs). Buy the bulk large container of Excel (2L/4L? can't remember) for under $50 and it will last forever. I normally get the 750ml bottle and use it sparingly for my puffer tank, but you can calculate how long it would last for your tank (probably a month or two).

Just my 2 cents.