Name that deficiency! Stumped.

[czcz]

CSM+B will cloud the water btw. Its much easier to dose from solution to control levels. The mix you've got would add around .2ppm Fe and is a fine place to start. There's dosing formulas as a reply in the fertilization sticky.

Assuming your 20 gal is more like 17 gals after displacement and stuff, 1/16tsp of CSM+B dry will add about .15ppm Fe. Also good.

Your Fe target is .1-.2ppm depending on method. Little higher or lower is not uncalled for. Personally, I dosed to .3ppm Fe with CSM+B+Extra Fe (Greg's old "experimental mix") under high light. I've switched to TMG, which has a better chelator, and am finding positive results with only a fraction of that level. Its good to mess with traces within reason.

 

[7Enigma]

czcz,

Thanks for the reply. But first you say dosing dry will cloud the water, but then later you say 1/16th teaspoon in my tank will be a good dose. So, what do I do? Use a cup of tank water and dissolve and then add to the tank? I'd prefer that method if its possible.

And other than watching for deficiencies (which as you can tell is not my strong suit ), how do I know how frequently to dose the CSM+B mix? Twice a week, every other day, once a week? I think I already know the answer to this question but I can hope right?

 

[BlazerFRS]

I have 3 4oz. bottles I got for about a buck a piece that I use for fert dosing. For the CSM+B I mix 1/4tsp in 4 .oz of water and dose 10ml every other day- this is just over .1ppm in my 10g tank.
Due to your high lighting, I'd probably dose the CSM+B a little more aggrssively to start out- Maybe 10ml's every other day, from a stock solution of a full tsp in 4oz. This should give you about .2 ppm Fe.
I'll probably increase my dose to something equivilent sometime soon, but I just increased my PO4 dosing, so I want to observe changes caused by upping PO4 before I go changing anyhting else.

I wouldn't dose something that you want in such a small concentration dry- I've never even seen 1/16th tsp. measuring spoon for one thing. It's easy to measure a tsp of powder once, and it's also easy to measure liquid 10ml every other day, but there would be alot more variability in that 1/16th tsp from day to day IMO.
I dose K dry b/c I usually add a good amount of powder, and it's exact concentration is less then critical. All my other ferts are dosed in solution, FWIW.

Good luck

 

[7Enigma]

Thanks so much for the reply BlazerFRS, it was very helpful and your suggestion will be used (1tsp in 4oz. dosed every other day 10ml).

Well I'm going home to do a 25% PWC, add a ml or so Flourish, and possibly a small amount of potassium (but i'm now worried with how much salt is getting put in the tank!). Let's hope the order gets here before the end of the week.

 

[czcz]

Thanks for the reply. But first you say dosing dry will cloud the water, but then later you say 1/16th teaspoon in my tank will be a good dose. So, what do I do?

CSM+B will cloud whether dosed dry or in solution in all my tanks, with less clouding the lower the KH. Either works -- its the target you're looking at. The clouding goes away with time and doesn't hurt anything. Some dose CSM+B at night so they don't have to look at it. (Light also makes available Fe fall out of solution.)

Because of rounding, BlazerFRS's dosing recommendation is closer to .33ppm Fe, just FYI. Still a great dosing level imo, but might want to drop it to 7mL doses in your case.

1 TBL CSM+B= 13600mg
1 tsp CSM+B = 4533mg
4oz of water = 118mL

mg CSM+B * (.0653mg Fe/mg CSM+B)/mL water = mg Fe/mL trace mix
(4533 mg CSM+B * .0653 Fe/mg CSM+B)/118ml = 2.51 mg Fe/mL trace mix

(mL dose * mg Fe/mL trace mix)/(tank gal * 3.77L/gal) = Fe ppm (mg/L)
(10mL * 2.51 mg Fe/mL trace mix)/(20gal * 3.77L/gal) = .332ppm Fe

HTH

 

[BlazerFRS]

Thanks for checking my math czcz; I've just been estimating, but I didn't think I was that far off!

It's always best to run the numbers

 

[czcz]

Hey, no problem. I also just saw I did the dry dose above for 1/32tsp, not 1/16tsp. Sorry.

1/16tsp CSM+B = 283mg

mg dry CSM+B * (.0653 mg Fe/mg CSM+B) / (tank gal * 3.77L/gal) = Fe ppm
(283mg CSM+B * .0653 mg Fe/mg CSM+B) / (20gal * 3.77L/gal) = .245ppm Fe

(Using 17gal, it is ~.29 ppm Fe, and 1/32tsp into 17gal is ~.15 ppm Fe)

Why waste time on work when you can mess with other people's dosing?
Joe

edit:
btw, BlazerFRS's normal mix is pretty perfect.

For the CSM+B I mix 1/4tsp in 4 .oz of water and dose 10ml every other day

Gives about .17ppm Fe.

 

[7Enigma]

So czcz,

In your opinion which dosing should I start with, the 1/32 teaspoon or the 1/16th? I'm hesitant to go with the larger dose, however, all of my current problems seem to be arising from an iron deficiency (some K deficiency I'm sure as well). What sold me on this was that everything but the wisteria (java fern slightly) has yellowish leaves (some worse than others) with bright green veins. That seems to be textbook iron deficiency, but I was always looking for the "real" problem since I thought the Flourish comprehensive 2-3times per week would suffice (I was actually using slightly MORE than the directions said).

 

[Purrbox]

Flourish tends to under estimate the amount of fertilizer that you need to add to your tank. I think this is because the directions are geared towards lower light tanks. This is why most of their ferts also have a section for advanced dosing which give you the calcs to determine the ppm that you are adding so that you can finetune your dosing for a specific situation.

 

[czcz]

Dry I would start with 1/32tsp with your light. Like BlazerFRS, I prefer to dose traces from solution because it increases the margin for error, and would suggest doubling his CSM+B mix to 1/2tsp in 4oz, so a 10mL dose/20gal lasts you 2-3 weeks and maintains ~.17ppm Fe, per your desire for a short-term mix.

 

[7Enigma]

So while the Flourish comprehensive does not have the same amount of iron in it as the CSM+B will, I have increased my dosage to once a day in the morning (about 1-1.5ml). I have a question though:

The leaves of the anubias and the pennywort that are yellow with green veins, will these begin to become more green? Or is it a factor only as they are growing (ie once they get yellow they stay yellow)?

Thanks.

p.s. Still waiting on the shipping confirmation, so it looks like its going to be a while before I can start dosing the K and CSM+B to the appropriate levels. Lets hope the plants can hold on!

 

[Purrbox]

In my experience the leaves will turn more green once an iron deficiency has been corrected.

 

[7Enigma]

Success! My shipment from Greg came today. FYI, he is located in IA and I ordered on Tuesday afternoon, and got the shipment TODAY when I got home from work. Now that's quick service.

Anyway after opening up my "cocaine" packets, , I dosed ~10ppm potassium (K2SO4 1/4 teaspoon), ~5ppm nitrAte and an additional couple ppm potassium (1/8th teaspoon KNO3), and a dusting of CSM+B. All dissolved in about 500ml tank water and added slowly to make sure the fish stayed away as it was mixing in the tank (you could see the "salt density" as I call it where you can tell something heavy is falling down in the water column).

I'm actually seeing some pretty good pearling right now (better than normal), and that mixed with the 1ml of Flourish I dosed when I got home should help alleviate the iron problem that seems to be present. Tomorrow I'll get a 4oz. bottle to make up the CSM+B with an actual specific amount (that dusting was like 10-15grains so not much) and start that on Saturday, shooting for 2-3 doses per week.

I'm also due for a phosphate check later today, but don't expect it to be too low (since my food supply's an ample amount).

I used the calc in the sticky for the dry dosing btw. Thanks all for your help, and I'll hopefully be able to post an updated shot of the recovery.

 

[7Enigma]

Just wanted to update that the plants look much greener with the addition of the CSM+B and the extra K. I'll be posting pictures probably tomorrow or Thursday. Right now the differences are startling, but when I go back and look at my pictures I posted the differences aren't as apparent (due to my camera's tendency to "enhance" the colors). I'll wait another day or so and get a shot, but the anubias leaf that was almost yellow, now almost looks completely green (you can still see yellow where the veins are not close by). It's really quite amazing.

 

[7Enigma]

Guys,

Using CSM+B am I doomed to have an always cloudy tank (like in czcz's avatar)? Ever since using that specific fert my tank has taken on a slightly brownish tinge. Plants look great though!

 

[newfound77951]

mine is the same way....not too noticeable when you look into the tank from the front, but if I look down the long side there is a yellowish tinge. My diatom filter won't remove it (not surprisingly if it's a dissolved substance). Maybe some carbon occasionally?? I might try that.

 

[czcz]

It's worse at higher pH/KH than low pH/KH. It should go away on its own within a couple hours though. I think it was Travis or Shalu who called their tanks "a foggy day in San Francisco" after dosing CSM+B. If it is persistent, the dosage is correct, and you use opaque bottles, there's a problem. Perhaps try a new batch and see what happens.

My avatar is my problem tank btw, which has persistent greenwater possibly due to ambient sunlight or something. It's still around after switching to TMG in that tank; it's not a CSM+B thing. HTH

 

[7Enigma]

Well my KH is around 5-6 and my pH flucuates due to the CO2 but normally is at the most 7.2. It definately isn't green water or any type of living entity, but rather looks like I added a piece of driftwood to the tank (nothing has been added since the beginning). I'm kind of bummed because it used to look crystal clear prior to the CSM+B, but the plants do look much MUCH healthier. I still never got around to taking a pic, but this past weekend did a severe cutback almost completely removing the wisteria from the tank because it was driving me crazy doubling in size ever 3-5 days!

I'll see if I can get a pic in the next day or 2.

justin

 

[czcz]

The problem is persistent when dosing dry or from solution?

It could be that addressing the micro deficiency is causing something else to bottom out. You could limit your dose (maybe dose half or 3/4s your current dosing) or skip micros for a dose or two and observe, then adjust your dose. As you know most plants recover quickly from micro deficiency, and the best way to know adequate levels is by using plants and algae as nutrient indicators. Starving them of micros for a short time to narrow down the effects of CSM+B won't break anything too badly. Then it is easy to go back and use math to make custom mixes or tweak those levels for effect while tailoring micros for your specific tank.

 

[7Enigma]

The problem is persistent when dosing dry or from solution?

It could be that addressing the micro deficiency is causing something else to bottom out. You could limit your dose (maybe dose half or 3/4s your current dosing) or skip micros for a dose or two and observe, then adjust your dose. As you know most plants recover quickly from micro deficiency, and the best way to know adequate levels is by using plants and algae as nutrient indicators. Starving them of micros for a short time to narrow down the effects of CSM+B won't break anything too badly. Then it is easy to go back and use math to make custom mixes or tweak those levels for effect while tailoring micros for your specific tank.

??? Did you post this in the wrong thread?