Need water stability help!

[bacon6116]

Hi, I have two tanks--one 55 gal, one 40 hex. They are both set up almost identically--I had to split up two Angelfish pairs. Over the years, I've had several tanks set up and I have had to adjust the pH UP, as my well water is 6.0-6.4 out of the tap. It's a lot of messing around. This is supposed to be relaxing! When I set up these tanks, I deliberately chose S. American/Amazon fish so I didn't have to constantly fuss with the water. I tried to go planted but all I have left is Java fern, Anubias and some java moss on Malaysian driftwood. The driftwood isn't leaching tannins, the water is clear. I used some flourite under the gravel in about half of each tank. I use Bio-wheels on both tanks and do a 30% water change on average 2-3 times/mo.--sometimes it's weekly, sometimes it's 2 weeks between changes.

The 40 hex remains healthy with no fish disease/death and the pH on that tank hovers around 7.2. The pH on the 55 consistently shoots up to 8.0 (or higher--it turns dark blue immediately) and only comes down minimally when I change the water. I know I can use chemicals to stabilize it, but I really want to know why it is happening.

Does anyone have any insight?

 

[Reefer James]

So why are you even messing around with your source water? Sounds like you have a beautiful acidic environment as source. This is frankly ideal for angelfish growth and plants... Adjust general hardness and ensure the alkalinity buffer is in place. Do not worrying about your pH... The addition of plants alone will consume carbon dioxide, an acid, and pH will raise. Once plants exhale co2 at night the pH will drop. These Diurnal changes happen. To stabilize them one would need a reverse light cycle refugium with quick growing plants such an anacharis, drawf sag, or cabomba...

Your driftwood may be releasing tannins but not to the point your pH is going to drop much... Especially at the level your pH exists. At these pH much more focus on the amount of filter media needs to be given because the nitrifying bacteria function less than 20% efficient at this pH. Which isn't as bad as it sounds but needs to be considered.

Don't worry about low pH and dosing chemicals too much. Just ensure alkalinity buffer is in place.

 

[Caliban07]

Hi, I have two tanks--one 55 gal, one 40 hex. They are both set up almost identically--I had to split up two Angelfish pairs. Over the years, I've had several tanks set up and I have had to adjust the pH UP, as my well water is 6.0-6.4 out of the tap. It's a lot of messing around. This is supposed to be relaxing! When I set up these tanks, I deliberately chose S. American/Amazon fish so I didn't have to constantly fuss with the water. I tried to go planted but all I have left is Java fern, Anubias and some java moss on Malaysian driftwood. The driftwood isn't leaching tannins, the water is clear. I used some flourite under the gravel in about half of each tank. I use Bio-wheels on both tanks and do a 30% water change on average 2-3 times/mo.--sometimes it's weekly, sometimes it's 2 weeks between changes.



The 40 hex remains healthy with no fish disease/death and the pH on that tank hovers around 7.2. The pH on the 55 consistently shoots up to 8.0 (or higher--it turns dark blue immediately) and only comes down minimally when I change the water. I know I can use chemicals to stabilize it, but I really want to know why it is happening.



Does anyone have any insight?

You should research flourite. Their are few instance online that keepers have attributed the rise in ph to flourite. I'm not saying that this is the cause but just google around.

I would consider using 1 inch potting soil capped with 1 inch gravel as the substrate.


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[Reefer James]

Let me 100% dispute any claim that Fluorite raises pH. That is 100% false. Maybe the plants were growing more using more CO2, an acid.... But the Fluorite itself did not do this. Post hoc ergo propter hoc... logical fallacy. The fluorite is not responsible for pH raise but could rather facilitate higher growth rates which would remove an acid from aquaria..

Even testing the pH right before lights go off you would naturally have a higher pH in a planted aquarium... User test data is not accurate for pH unless tested at a specific time each day.. And even there pH is such a HUGE number to even try to monitor without understanding what the driving cause of pH is in each aquarium.

 

[Caliban07]

Let me 100% dispute any claim that Florite raises pH. That is 100% false.

Wow 100% that's bold. You really should expand a little.

I have never used flourite (never will) but I have just read about people's experiences with it.


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[Reefer James]

Out of curiosity why have you chosen to never use this substrate? Have you encountered negative reviews of the product from other aquarist experience with it? I find it to supply minerals in an extremely good ratio to where plants need it in addition to providing a substrate that roots can easily expand in...

 

[Caliban07]

Out of curiosity why have you chosen to never use this substrate? Have you encountered negative reviews of the product from other aquarist experience with it? I find it to supply minerals in an extremely good ratio to where plants need it in addition to providing a substrate that roots can easily expand in...

No not at all...I am a Walstad fan boy. She has successfully grown beautiful looking tanks in mere potting soil and thus proven that the need for manufacturer endorsed substrates is nil. This is the only reason I would encourage people to consider other means of substrate. I have no personal experience with flourite and would never try to persuade one to stop using it.

What is a fact is that I have seen instances where people are convinced flourite was the cause of ph rise. While this may not be true, it is a statement that I would explore in greater detail if only to come to the same conclusion as yourself.


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[bacon6116]

So why are you even messing around with your source water? Sounds like you have a beautiful acidic environment as source. This is frankly ideal for angelfish growth and plants... Adjust general hardness and ensure the alkalinity buffer is in place. Do not worrying about your pH... The addition of plants alone will consume carbon dioxide, an acid, and pH will raise. Once plants exhale co2 at night the pH will drop. These Diurnal changes happen. To stabilize them one would need a reverse light cycle refugium with quick growing plants such an anacharis, drawf sag, or cabomba...

Your driftwood may be releasing tannins but not to the point your pH is going to drop much... Especially at the level your pH exists. At these pH much more focus on the amount of filter media needs to be given because the nitrifying bacteria function less than 20% efficient at this pH. Which isn't as bad as it sounds but needs to be considered.

Don't worry about low pH and dosing chemicals too much. Just ensure alkalinity buffer is in place.

I was a little confused by your reply, but then I realized the misunderstanding. Years ago when I first started, I did all the messing around trying to keep a pH of 7. It was exhausting and I ended up breaking down the tanks and quitting. Then I missed it, so I started up again, but I DON'T want to mess with my source water. That's my whole problem. That's why I selected South american fish and low light/no CO2 plants. I want a tank with little fussing around--I chose to work with what I have, and it's working beautifully in my 40 hex. The problem is, it is NOT working in my 55.

My question was this: Why, if my tap water goes in the tank at 6.4, is the 55 consistently testing at 8.0 or higher?

Fortunately, I think the answer came to me last night after I typed this. The last time I bought a plant, I ended up with small snails in the 55. The only difference in the tanks is the stupid snails. I can't believe it's enough to cause such a swing in pH, but it must be. I am going to chemically lower the pH enough to introduce a couple clown loaches, treat it until the snails are gone and then gradually allow it to go back to it's natural state. Does that seem right?

 

[coralbandit]

I love clown loaches but there are better loaches(ones that stay smaller) to get for your 55.
One question from me is do both tanks have covers?
Are the covers the same?
More eover do they both "seal" the tank or does one have a greater ability to exchange air from outside?
A tank with a tight cover will have a lower pH do to co2 not being exchanged.
This is a common issue with low pH in marine aquariums.
If you want to lower your pH just to get "whatever" in the tank or for whatever reason I would go the RO water way.
The pH chemicals don't always work or even if they do often have much worse side effects like algae,large pH swings and possible fish deaths.

 

[bacon6116]

Both covers are the same--not tight, both were bought second hand and have gaps where previous owner had two HOB filters--I only use one.

Once I solve this immediate issue, which I think is the snails, I won't have a pH issue, and as far as fish deaths--I already lost both angelfish, my diamond tetras and half my corys. I have nowhere to go but up. As for manually lowering the pH, that is only a temp solution until the snails are gone, and my pH goes back down to 6.5-7.2. The remainder of my fish have apparently acclimated to the current pH. I don't want to do something as permanent or expensive as RO. If I go the chemical route, I shouldn't have an algae problem, I don't think, as my plants are well established. Is that wrong?

On further consideration, I agree that clown loaches would not be the way to go. Knowing that my normal pH is below 7.0 and I am trying to maintain a South American/Amazon tank, what would you suggest?

Also, is that a gold Ram in your pic? If so, what is your secret for keeping Rams?

 

[Reefer James]

I would like to mention that providing plants with only a substrate in a planted pot will only provide that plant with a limited amount of nutrients and overtime could have a greater need for root expansion... It's much more beneficial for the expansion of roots to have a deep substrate around 3inches +.

I honestly would not touch your pH. Use Tap + Seachem Prime and call it done. Theres no reason the fish you have mentioned could not live in your conditions... If you do want to lower ph, it would be to tailor a fish that needs to grow in acidic conditions such as angelfish vails. But even they can be bred in basic water...

Aquarist spend way way way too much time working with pH. Is it because it's something we can actively change and notice a testable difference? Yes... It's much more beneficial for the aquarist to leave the source water alone than introduce something less stable..

 

[coralbandit]

On further consideration, I agree that clown loaches would not be the way to go. Knowing that my normal pH is below 7.0 and I am trying to maintain a South American/Amazon tank, what would you suggest?

Also, is that a gold Ram in your pic? If so, what is your secret for keeping Rams?

sinibotia would speak better to your loach needs(pm him if necessary as loaches are his love!)

My avatar is a German Blue Ram!
Does he not look blue to you?
I breed rams and one bunch came out like this guy!
Pretty unique IMO so I am proud of him,hence his placement!
No secret to keeping them.
Good clean water 80++ for temp.
My 75g has over 100 @ 8 months old now that have been in my tap water(7.6pH,10GH,4Kh) since they were 2months old!
I breed them in RO/DI remineralsied.

The chemical route would/could still cause algae as it truly a balance in planted tanks between ;light,ferts and co2 that make planted tanks grow.
Many freshies like their po4 up to 5(which blows me away!), while reefers look for a reaidng of .03!
So your guess(even being new) is probably as good as mine!
You get algae A LOT EASIER then you get rid of it!

 

[Reefer James]

I do not know why reefers target such a low phosphate. My phosphate in my high nutrient tank is 1.30..... Do I sacrifice faster growth. Sure. But I still have coral growth and limited algae. Just enough for crabs snails and herbavoirs

I have housed 7 clown loaches from .5 inches in my 60g 4ft tank in a pH between 6.6 and 7.2 for last 2 years... If you need any help with clowns let me know. Your pH is fine for them....

 

[PerfectDepth]

What type of gravel? Are you sure it's inert? Did it happen to have pictures of Af. cichlids on the bag? Some substrates are made to raise ph. Do you have any rock hardscape? If so, that could also be the cause. Some rocks are inert, but some are reactive and will raise pH over time.


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[bacon6116]

No, I am absolutely sure the gravel is inert, and I don't have any rocks in there. I would test them first if I added rocks, though. It's the strangest thing. Since I don't know for sure what is causing the high pH, my plan now is to get rid of the snails, and start testing gh/kh to try to eliminate the swings. I currently do absolutely nothing to the water--it seems I may need to increase the kh. A super low pH is something I've always been able to count on--I am at a loss in this case. Thanks!

 

[PerfectDepth]

Seems like KH is probably higher in one tank, that is unless your plants are using up most of the co2.

Here's something you can try..

Take a cup of tap water, put an air stone in it for an hour or two, then test ph. If you've been getting a 6.4 result right out of the tap, two things: 1) I'm guessing the ph is actually closer to neutral. 2) If it's truly 6.4, then it would mean your tap water KH is very low, which could be a problem.

Do the same with a cup of tank water from the 55.. if the ph settles to a lower reading, that would mean co2 is being depleted, driving up the tank's ph only while the plants are photosynthesizing. If the air stone has no effect on ph, that means something is driving up your tank's KH. In that case, you could do frequent water changes to bring it down.



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[bacon6116]

Seems like KH is probably higher in one tank, that is unless your plants are using up most of the co2.

Here's something you can try..

Take a cup of tap water, put an air stone in it for an hour or two, then test ph. If you've been getting a 6.4 result right out of the tap, two things: 1) I'm guessing the ph is actually closer to neutral. 2) If it's truly 6.4, then it would mean your tap water KH is very low, which could be a problem.

Do the same with a cup of tank water from the 55.. if the ph settles to a lower reading, that would mean co2 is being depleted, driving up the tank's ph only while the plants are photosynthesizing. If the air stone has no effect on ph, that means something is driving up your tank's KH. In that case, you could do frequent water changes to bring it down.



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Thanks--I will try that. I ordered a kh/gh test kit today so I can gather more data from both tanks and the tap water.