New to plants. Do I need CO2?

[jm667]

I have been posting several threads as I have been setting up my new tank trying to figure out what I want and am about to fill it and start cycling it this week. So far I have a 50 gallon tank (36x18x19), an Eheim 2217 filter, a hydor 200 watt inline heater, and I have 4 bags of flourite black on their way. Anyways, I have been trying to figure out the lighting I need now, as I mentioned in another post. This tank was orginally going to be in the basement or somewhere less frequented, but my wife now agrees to have it in the living room which I am excited about, but now I am going to have to make sure it looks even nicer! So I am definitely building a canopy for it, so was looking at the lights from AH supply, probably the 96 watt as I mentioned in another thread. I really wanted to stay away from CO2 mainly because I don't know anything about it, and figure it will be too costly, but I am curious about it now. If it makes it easier to grow plants, and I don't have to worry about algae, then I may consider it. I want to have lots of nice looking plants and a nice piece of driftwood, but I don't want the tank totally packed full with plants so you can't see the fish. I do want to have a good combination of fish that will look good with the black substrate, such as a couple schools of tetras, and maybe a few larger fish that will stand out like gouramis, and some bottom feeders and shrimps. I suppose since my tank is so wide, that might not be a big problem as I will have lots of room for plants and for fish to swim. Again, I don't really know much about the types of plants so I don't really know what types I want, just a variety that will look nice, with different levels of tall plants, short ones, maybe a few reddish ones mixed in there. Although I have a few plants in my 10 gallon with just the stock 15w light, I didn't add ferts or anything to them, and they just kind of stay the same size. So this is the first time I am doing to be dealing with plants where I will want them to thrive and look great since this will be out in the main room. Can I have a decent looking setup without CO2 and not have to worry about algae? Does CO2 make things easier as far as maintenance? What is the true cost of it? Thanks in advance.

 

[ellisb1]

Hello! CO2 can help with algae, but is not a solution to having a algae free tank. Basically, injecting CO2 will help your plants with photosynthesis. If the plants don't have enough CO2 in the water, then they can't use much light or nutrients to convert to chlorophyll. You don't have to use CO2, but if you want to keeps lots of plants that grow well, you might want to consider it. Presurized CO2 systems are not cheap. You will have to have a tank, and have it filled every so often. You will alslo have to have a regulator, needle valve, etc. You might want to research presurized systems. You can also try DIY CO2 with yeast, but that is a big tank. I only recommend DIY for tanks that are 20 gallon or smaller. You can mix up 2 or 3 DIY solutions though. Again, just something to look into. Basically, DIY is water, sugar and yeast mixed into a bottle. They yeast eats the sugar and the bi-product is CO2. You will also have to buy some diffusers to ensure that the CO2 is dissolving, regardless if you are using a pressurized or DIY system. You can have a nice looking plant with no CO2 if you have the right type of plants. If you want to have red plants, they are typically light and CO2 lovers. CO2 doesn't ever really help with maintenance, other than the plants using up more nitrates and other fish bi-products during photosynthesis. Hope this helps. If you have more questions, post them or send me a pm. Sorry so scatter brained, just trying to hit the high points.

 

[jm667]

Actually that does help a lot. I think the thing with the algae I was wondering about is that I hear if you have too much light, you will get more algae without CO2. So I guess if I just keep the light levels so they aren't too high, then I will be ok? Can you have a lot of plants without CO2, or do the more you have, the more they use up the CO2 thats available and not grow as well? I really can't afford to get into the pressurized systems now, but I suppose if the DIY systems help I could look into that. Do products like excel help? I suppose I need to determine whether or not I am going to use some type of CO2 before I choose the lights, right? Or would something like the 96w be sufficient for growing a good variety of nice looking plants? Sorry Im so scatter brainted too, but am almost ready to get this going and don't want to buy all these plants and have them die!

 

[ellisb1]

Yes, if you have too much light, you could get an algea bloom. That is, if your plants are not pulling the nutrients away from the algae. Basically, it is plants vs. algae. If you have co2 in place, plants will use up more nutrients with the light they are recieving. You can always use less light and keep your plants growing without CO2, depending on the species. Some plants have to have it and a lot of light, especially some stem plants. Excel works well. You will probably go through it rather quickly though. You can use it with or without CO2. You can also get CO2 tablets instead of injecting CO2. They will probably cost alot in a tank of that size. I would decide on CO2 first. If you use low light plants, you don't have to have it per say. Then I would decide on lighting. a 96 will only give you about 2 watts per gallon, which is considered low-medium lighting. If you do inject, you could get more lighting later. I completely understand about not wanting plants to die. I have had it happen to me a bunch of times. Send me some more questions if you want. We are all here to help!!!

 

[jm667]

By the way, the 96watts I am referring to is CF. I have read in other posts that the wpg rule refers to T8's, so is it that much different for CF lights?

 

[jm667]

If I look at aquariumplants.com and look under anything that needs low to medium light, should I be ok with those without Co2?

 

[ellisb1]

When you say compact flourescent, which kind of bulbs are you speaking of? the spiral ones that screw in to incidescent fixtures or is this actually a lighting fixture for an aquarium? could you possibly send the link to the lights that you are thinking of buying? also, you should look for low to medium light plants. any good aquatic plant website will tell you if they recommend co2 for the specific plants you are interested in. also with aquariumplants.com, there is a minimum purchase that you have to make. I am sure you would meet that if you bought 5 or so plants. i get great deals on diffusers and plants on ebay. remember, if you have several fish, they are producing co2 too. If you want to have an intensely planted tank, you might want to consider co2. you can make a few co2 systems with yeast and sugar for hardly any cost. the sugar is like 3 bucks a bag and should get you through a month or so. the yeast is like 3 bags for a dollar. they all you need is some airline tubing, a few diffusers or cigarette filters or chopsticks. if you decide on diy, let me know. that is all i have used for a few years now and it works great for me. it worked in my 55 too.

 

[jm667]

This is the fixture I was referring to. 96 Watt Bright Kits It seems perfect since I can mount it into the canopy I am going to build and I have seen it mentioned in the forums a lot. I checked with AH supply about the heat it produces and they said I should have no problem or not need fans if I leave the back open, which I was going to do. I will probably buy all the plants online initially since I will need a lot to start with and they are a lot cheaper than what I have seen in the stores. Do you think I should just start out with a bunch of plants and a light fixture like this, then if they don't grow to well, maybe add a DIY system? That sounds cheap and easy enough.

 

[ellisb1]

I think that light will be great. I also thought that the wpg rule worked with those too. I have always used it anyways on my compacts. I would buy this fixture and all the plants that you need and add them to the tank and see what happens. if you get some algae growth or if the plants don't grow, add some co2. i will research that compact flo issue a little more. i think you should be good with it.

 

[jm667]

Ok great, that sounds nice and simple too, and the light is not too expensive. If you are researching from their website, if you happen to take a look at their bulbs section, they have several color temps to choose from there. Which do you recommend?

 

[JustOneMore20]

Getting a good number of stem plants will help. They grow faster and will use up more nutrients than slower growing plants. Some good stem plants to get for your lighting would be Bacopa caroliniana, Rotala rotundifolia, Hornwort, Pogostemon gayi, Wisteria, Anacharis, and Pennywort. There are many other plants that are good for your lighting....but those above are fast growers and will help to keep algae down.

DIY CO2 may work for some people on larger tanks, but pressurized is usually recommended. Its more efficient and definitely less time consuming than DIY (yeast method). It is just expensive to begin with.

 

[jm667]

Hey Kristin, just to give me an idea, if I did go this route and realized I needed CO2, and got tired of doing the DIY method, whats a rough idea of what a pressurized CO2 system would cost and what does it involve?

 

[brutus]

That looks like a good light fixture.You will be able to grow lots with the beast.

 

[ellisb1]

I would say a light with the color temp from 5600-5700 k. I have had lost of success with these "daylight" bulbs. Also, a co2 tank online for a 5lb (which is small) would run you about $50. You also have to buy a regulator, cheapest I have found online is about $60. Then you have to buy a needle valve and other fittings, but I would buy that locally so you can match it up to your tank and regulator.

 

[ellisb1]

Again, it all depends on the plants that you choose. Like Kristin said, I would buy some plants that would grow quickly and eat up nutrients quickly so that algae wouldn't have time to grow.

 

[JustOneMore20]

Hey Kristin, just to give me an idea, if I did go this route and realized I needed CO2, and got tired of doing the DIY method, whats a rough idea of what a pressurized CO2 system would cost and what does it involve?

It all depends on where you get the tank and what size you get, but I'd say roughly $200-250 for the whole system. But that could be cheaper... Find a place nearby to refill the tank....most will go 6 months or more between refills and they usually cost anywhere from $10-20. And you set it and pretty much forget it....just monitor the levels via a drop checker in the tank to make sure you aren't injecting too much. Its worth the money IMO. You will need a way to diffuse the co2 into the tank....but if you used DIY then you'd have that already. I use a powerhead...chops the bubbles up into small ones and then my spray bar diffuses them around the tank. I use a glass drop checker. It turns colors and tells ya if you have too much, enough, or not enough (read link for explanation). I rarely have to adjust mine though...it just does its thing. Hauling the tank to the gas place is a pain for me, but I don't have to do it that often, so its ok. Some places will fill your own tank and some will just trade out. Its cheaper for me to trade the tank.

This regulator comes with a needle valve and even tubing...I'd add a brass check valve, then you just need a tank. So say you got a tank for $70, then you are looking at around $190ish for everything (adding in a check valve).

 

[jm667]

Ok, I'm thinking maybe I will get that 96, and no CO2 to start with. Maybe just excel, and a DIY system if I have to. If I get too much algae, I can alawys reduce the amount of time that light is on, right? And if it can't be on for 8 hours or so and I still want to be able to view the tank longer than that I could hook up my single strip 30 watt T8 fixture that I have to use the rest of the time, right? I will look into those plants Kristin suggested. I hope I can get a decent looking setup out of this.

 

[SpeedEuphoria]

If your starting a brand new tank, start with like 4hrs of light. Then work your way up over like 2 months considering no CO2.

From a non believer, I have to say that CO2 is the best investment so far for growing plants. You can cheap out on lights, but not on CO2. I struggled for months on a newly setup 55G on ~100w of Overdriven T8's(basic reflector) and excel. CO2 made an instant improvement and my life so much easier. Still on the same lighting and bulbs since ~AUG '08 and growing plants as fast as I can stand(have to trim ~ every 2wks or trim alot every 3wks).

 

[jm667]

Ok maybe I will eventually invest in CO2 after a few months, but I just can't put out anymore money on that right now. As long as I can start off like this and my plants won't die (even they grow slowly), that is fine. Then if my wife sees a beautiful tank, she's not gonna mind putting out more money as much as if I did it all at once!

 

[ellisb1]

All of my decisions are pending on my wife's opinion too. I know how that is. Let us know if we can do anything else!