Newby diving into pressurized C02, HELP!

[fastfly48]

I'm sick of mucking around, and I'm getting frustrated! :?
I had no idea that growing simple plants would be soooooo painful/hard.

I thnik I'm just going to go out and buy that C02 pressurized deal...
and phosphate and KH test kits.

I'll test the water then start injecting to C02.
I actually just bought a C02 diffuser and pump...but it barley fits in my tank!...and is high maintenence...I just want to skip over the messy DIY stuff and go straight to pressurized C02. That way I'll be set for the long run. What do you think?

I just did some water tests with:
ammonia 0ppm,
nitrite 0ppm,
nitrate 10ppm and
ph 7.4 ppm

...and here are some more stats...
20 gallon freshwater tank.
2 watts per gallon...lights are on for about 10hrs a day.
fish: 7 neon tetras, 1 cory (gett'n more), 2 plecos, 1 lonely danio and a dwarf blue ram.

I'm hoping like CRAZY that this pressurized C02 and new test kits will solve my plant problems! I Just want plants! I didn't think that that was much to ask for!?

Sorry for sounding so desperate...
Please help me out.
Ryland.

 

[BrianNY]

Forgive me Ryland but I do get frustrated when I can't make people understand that there is nothing simple about growing aquarium plants. It's presented me with the greatest challenge since I've started keeping aquariums.

In this endeavor a little knowledge can be very expensive and frustrating. You've managed to grasp certain elements such as plants need CO2 but you haven't learned to tie all of the elements together. It's kind of like someone knows their car needs gasoline to run, but doesn't know they need oil in the crank case as well.

Adding CO2 without knowing the buffering capacity of your water is not a good thing. The water chemistry can be difficult to understand but it is really essential once you start adding high light and CO2. You need to know more about the biology of aquatic plants once you begin forcing them to photosynthesize.

 

[fastfly48]

Thanks for your honesty Brian, and sorry.

I actually went out and bought the pressurized system, and it's now set-up and fully functional.
My ph has droped from 7.4 (previous) to about 6.8 (after)..but I expected that...just not 100% sure on how to stop it falling lower...
I did get a Carbonate Hardness test kit (aqua sonic), however it seems my hardness is off the chart...I added over 50 drops of the second bottle and the test still wasn't turning gree or yellow!


Sorry. I certainly don't think plants are easy to grow (even if they are "easy" plants)...trust me on that one!

Your right. I need to know much more, I just can't seem to find digestable info...like step by step starer basics etc... ...and I apreciate that I NEED to know more...knowing I don't know enough make me want to know more...

I can sort of imagine your frustration. MAJOR MAJOR emphasis of "sort of" there...
My family never get off my back about how carful I am with my aqurium...and the thing is, I'm not carefull enough!
They are ALWAYS telling me to add billions more un-apropriate fish, not understanding why I need aqurium advive ( 8O ), do water changes and water tests etc...etc... :?
anyways...

I didn't think 2 watts per gallon was high lighting? I'm only adding a little C02 too...but they arn't exuces. I need to do even more homework. Don't have any recommended readings do you?
I feel i've got the baiscs covered, it's just this new CO2 stuff that has me stumped. I've read the stickys...perhaps reading them once again wouldn't hurt...

Thanks you.
Stay happy.
Ryland

 

[TankGirl]

You have 2wpg, so you have decent lighting that you ought to be able to grow many plants. What specifically are the problems you are having with them, and what plants are we speaking of? Once we get a clear idea of your setup and your goals then we can get specific about managing the CO2.

 

[BrianNY]

No need to apologize and I do understand where you're coming from as I began the exact same way.

Simply put, the more light you give your plants, the more you force photosynthesis. Plants can't grow adaquately without lifes building blocks. Macrunutrients being N, K, and C (in the form of CO2), and a host of trace nutrients. To some extent these macros will exist naturally in your aquarium but there will never be enough to satisfy the needs of the plants without supplemention. Low light tanks (which I consider to be around 1wpg), rarely encounter this because photosynthesis isn't being driven by lighting.

No matter how large a tank one has, it's still a closed eco-system and there in lies the challenge. Rarely will it stay balanced because whatever is living in the tank (plants, fish, bacteria), are constantly altering the chemistry just by living and dieing. Feeding your fish or fertilizing your plants compounds the change in chemistry and constant monitoring is required to keep everything as stable as possible.

What happens if things get too out of balance? Your tank will become a nightmare. Algae thrives when the nutrients are out of whack simply because they are much simpler plants. Or worse when it comes to CO2 and here is where even more chemistry comes into play. There is a relationship between how much CO2 is disolved in your tank and KH and pH of your water. Without knowing what your controls are, you can suffocate your fish or cause a massive pH crash.

Beginning to understand? It's like driving your car without knowing if you've oil in your crank case.

 

[fastfly48]

Hi tank girl...

Specific plant problems?....
ok, well my java fern has grown four leaves in four months and the others...um...melted... gone floppy, not grown, colected black algae, gone yellow/clear. That's about all i can think of.
"Others" meaning: lots of vallis (started tank with this), Ambulia and Bacopa.
I've JUST added some wisteria under high high recommendation from my lfs. So my hopes are high for the wisteria...

Many thanks in advance!
Ryland.

My Set-up?
ok...I'll try and make this as clear as possible, if I miss anything please tell me.
ok...it's a...
= 20 gallon freshwater community tank.
= 40 watt Floro light...2 watts per gallon
= lights on for about 10hrs a day
= fish: I have 7 neons, 1 danio, 1 dwarf blue ram, 2 bristle nose plecos and one cory cat fish (he's lonley!)
= 20g aqua clear over the back filter
= Heater set to 24*C
= Pressurized C02 set-up JUST instaled...bubble count at about 1 per second...turned off at night, when the tank light's off
= water stats as of tday:
ammonia 0ppm
nitrite 0 ppm
nitrate 10 ppm
ph down form 7.4 to 6.8 after the C02 today...
kH not sure. Did a test today (aquasonic) but couldn't get it green! added over 50 drops of the second bottle and still no end point! Something must be wrong there...

My goals? Well it's basically just to have a nice planted community tank. I've had trouble with plants form the get-go and the guys at my lfs think CO2 is/was my only option...saying that you can't go wrong with it. Looking around at all thier great planted tank i half believed them...silly me...
But since I've oly just taken the plunge into CO2 I'm hopnig it's not too late to stop myself going down the wrong path and to get this to work.

 

[fastfly48]

Thanks alot for your understading Brian.
Your comments really are in-valuble and mean alot to me.
I missed your post because I was writting one back to tank girl! Seems the end of my post was cut short!

I re-read the sticky too and that helped a little more as well. I think I'm starting to graps it. I really understood what you were saying there. Know I just need to investigate this C02, Kh, ph relationship a little further...and how to control it...

How do i keep my Ph from crashing? Do you have to just keep adding natural Kh buffer like crushed coral all the time? In the sticky it said that with a steady bubble count your ph should be steady too (mines about 1 bubble per second) Though i'm not sure about that...
Sorry for the question! arr....habbit. I shall keep seeking knowledge!

Thank you thank you.
Ryland

 

[Hoovercat]

How do i keep my Ph from crashing

Your pH won't crash until you add CO2 at a level that completely overwhelms the buffer provided by your KH. You're on the right track with your .6 drop. You have probably got good levels of CO2 right now but you need valid KH results to be sure. You might call your local water company and ask what KH usually runs locally so you have an idea what results to expect. Do not add anymore artificial buffer like CC as it shouldn't be necessary. Your pH should remain stable as long as your bubble count stays the same. What brand of KH test did you get anyway?

 

[fastfly48]

Thanks Hoovercat.
Well I tested my ph before, just after, and one night after I added the C02...
before it was about 7.4ppm, just after it was about 6.8 ppm and one night after it was back uo to about 7.4 ppm again. Is that bad? I figure that some of the c02 was used at night (as it is) and thus pushing the ph back up. Should the ph vary that much from day to night?

You say I'm "..on the right track with your drop of .6" I'm guessing that's a bad track? I'll try another KH test (aquasonic) now. I think I'll get another KH test kit. This aquasonic one is VERY vague...
Oh, and I haven't added any atificial buffer...I didn't think it would be necessary either.

My bubble count is at just under one per second. It's stable...exept for when i turned it on this morning...it takes a few seconds to fine tune the rate to one bubble per second. This isn't a major problem is it? So my Ph SHOULD stay stable too? I'm sure the ph will drop, but once there I guss it will stay stable...

Well, I 've got another KH test to try!
Thank you.
Ry.

 

[Zezmo]

it really sounds like you need an easier Kh test kit. Preferably one that measures in degrees of hardness. My test kit uses 1 drop per degree kh. Very simple. It is unlikely your tap water is over 10deg Kh. Don't Aussies have soft water?

At 40 watts of normal florescents over a 20 gallon tank. That is 2wpg, but that is not neccesarily high lighting (see other discussion on this board about WPG and small tanks). I mention that because you can turn your CO2 down quite a bit (maybe 30 bubbles per minute, instead of the 60 your at now). Really you need to find out your Kh and then adjust your CO2 to shoot for about 20ppm of CO2.
After turning down the CO2 you can use off the shelf formulated fertilizers (like standard Flourish), and root tabs. And you should be able to grow many plants quite successfully. Anubis, Cryptocorynes, Java Fern, Java Moss, Moss Balls, Ludwigia, Rotala, Hygrophila, Pennywort, Watersprite, and Aponogetons to name a few that should work under those conditions.

This won't be the overdriven super plant grow zone that many of us have in our tanks. It will instead slow things down a bit while you learn. Then over time you can choose to go to component fertilizers, crank up the CO2, and add more lights (like a 65 watt CF bulb). But do that when you are ready.

I have a couple 10 gallon planted tanks that each have 30 watts of normal florescent lighting. At 3wpg, I do not add CO2, but I do dose with Flourish Excel (an alternative to CO2). These tank are relatively low maintenance compared to the bucking bronco that is my main tank (4.7 WPG of CF with CO2 injection). Really I just add a teaspoon of Flourish and a teaspoon of Excel each week with my PWC (50%). The plants thrive, the algae does not.

 

[fastfly48]

Thanks Zezmo
My KH test does 1 drop per degree too...I just can't get to the "end point"!
With one drop of sloution 1 the water should be a dark blue (KH present), mine turns a really light blue...then turns a really light pink and stays there when i add the other solution...it should turn green then yellow!
i just tested my ph again to find that (after only 2.5 hours of CO2 on just under a bubble a second) it has dropped to about 6.4! That's a drop of 1.0 in 2.5 hours!
All of this is telling me that I have a really weak KH?

That flourish stuff sounds good...

Well I'll just keep trying!
Cheers.
Ry.

Anyways, thanks for your help!

 

[fastfly48]

heres a pic of my tank.
Hope you can see it! first time I've tried... [/url]

 

[fastfly48]

I'm testing my Ph 4-5 times a day...
Today the CO2s been on for about 4 hours and the Ph is now a 7.0 ppm. down from about 7.4 before i turned it on today. I've turned the bubble rate down to about one bubble ever 2 or 3 seconds...
I'm REALLY hanging out for another KH test. because I have no idea what my KH level is...and if I knew what my KH level is I would be able to work out my C02 level...
I know this isn't very good of me! But I'm keepnig a super close eye on the Ph till then.
Thaks for your patience and help.
Ryland.

 

[crazycat]

is your co2 on all the time? a controller would really help--if you can afford it. it would help you keep your ph steady by turning the co2 tank on when the tank goes above the required ph, and off when the ph hits the required ph. i would also recommend turning the co2 off at night, since your plant will produce their own co2 and lower the ph that way.

and, like everyone else has said, until you know your kh, you can't know how much co2 is getting into the water. it sounds like your test is faulty since you seem to be getting such odd colors.

how are the plants doing by the way? are they doing better? are you getting algae?

 

[fastfly48]

Hi crazy cat.

No. My C02 isn't on all the time....yes i have a controller, well a fine valve anyways.
I understand the Ph/CO2 relationship (kind of) ...but can't keep close enough tabs on my Ph to be turning the CO2 on and off all the time. I think there are machines that can do that...
Yes, i turn my CO2 off at night. Basically the CO2 is on when my lights are.

I took that KH test kit to the store tday and it worked perfectly well. Wierd!
Anyways, it came up with 60ppm which (i think) converts into about 3.75 KH?
I'm about to try and figure out what CO2 level that makes...
Apparently that is a pretty good level of KH...or so the staff at my lfs stay...

How are my plant doing? You can KIND OF get a good idea from the picture.
Well, I've only really been doing this CO2 thing for two days but already I think I'm seeing some improvments, with little green buds forming on the very tops... Overall, yes they are looking better!
Algae? No...not really. Just a little bit on the leaves from before but no more has come since the CO2...

thanks for helping! Keep it coming!
Cheers.
Ryland




ps. What does it mean when you say that your plants are "pearling"?

 

[BrianNY]

You've a needle valve on your bubble counter Ry. A pH monitor will shut off the CO2 supply if the pH falls below a level that you set. Reread the CO2 article by madasafish. It explains all of the equipment.

I consider a KH of between 3 and 6 excellent. Plants are looking good. Pearling is proof that your plants are exchanging CO2 for O2. Your plants will produc oxygen bubbles.

 

[fastfly48]

Thanks Brian!
A pH monitor hey? Would you recommend I get one?
Yep...I'll once again re-read the sticky!

I heard someone say the word "pearling". Um....so what does it look like? Just bubbles coming from the leaves I guess?

I'm going for a really natural look with my tank. I don't think that the blue backing does it any favours though! Hopfully with some more plants it will look swell. What do you think?

Once again, thanks a heap for your help!
Cheers.
Ryland

 

[Zezmo]

Your tank looks very nice. A Kh of 3.75 is ok. You have worked out your CO2 already I'm sure (around 11ppm CO2 btw, if your Ph is still at 7.0). Rather than messing with your CO2 tank each day, you can just leave it on 24/7. As long as your bubble rate is steady and you are going for lower CO2 (10-20ppm). You have little danger of crashing the Ph at night. And even at that, you can simply run an air stone (from an air pump) at night. This will drive out the excess CO2 and Oxygenate the water as well.
A Ph controller is nice and all. But the cost might not be justified on a 20 gallon tank. The most you might consider is a solenoid on a timer. http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=19225;category_id=2873;pcid1=3349;pcid2=
Which you would use to turn off the CO2 at night. IMO you don't really need that under your tank and lighting conditions. HTH

 

[fastfly48]

Thaks a lot Zezmo!

I can't wait till I get my tank "finished"
yep, I got 11ppm too!

Leave the CO2 on hey?
I guess it would save some hassle...my refills are free...and my CO2 levels (11ppm) are pretty safe (40ppm is the absolute MAX right?) so......yeah that sounds like a good idea then!

If I did that I think I'd slow the bubble rate down a little bit, I'd be too worried about the tank all the time othewise!
I think my filter (otb) would be help oxygenate the water though..

Cool cool. Well I'm quite pleased with my set-up now. Just need a *few* more fish and wait for some more plant growth!...and viola!

Thanks agian for all your help!
Ryland