Plants simply just won't grow - seeking experts

[fish4phil]

- 36 Gallon bowfront (20" deep)
- (2) 24" (48 Watt total) AquaticLife T5HO lights (1 of them the pink kind) 4" above water plus 18 watt LED strip in water (bulbs 4 months old), lights on for 8 hours / day
- Lid is egg crate lighting panel
- Pressurized CO2 with yellow drop checker for 6 months (CO2 on when lights are on)
- Dosing dry ferts after water change (1/8 tsp KNO3, 1/8 tsp K2SO4, 1/32 tsp KH2PO4), 5 mL micros the next day (seachem flourish)
- Plants: 3 Anubias Nana, Ludwiga Fladulosa, Water Lettuce, bacopa caroliniana
- 50%-75% water changes every week (haven't missed one yet)
- Fish stock is light at the moment with 5 zebra danios, 7 guppies, 4 corydoras, 1 pleco
- Filtration = Penn Plax Cascade 700 (185 gph flow) plus a circulation pump

Here's the thing: my plants aren't growing. In the 6 months I've had them, I have only trimmed or mitigated a total of 3 times I think. Especially considering the water lettuce and bacopa caroliniana, seems very strange. Here's another weird observation: I have brown Brush/Red Algae spots on the glass, on plant leaves (I usually have to toss most of the plant or trim it waaay down, on my driftwood, on the LED light strip, on the filter output, etc).

Before my water changes, I usually do full tests, here are my typical results:
Ammonia = 0
Nitrites = 0
Nitrates = 20
Ph = 7.2
KH = 6
GH = 10
Phosphates = 2.5

I'm predicting a couple of replies:
1) Not enough light. My rebuttal is that I have algae growing just fine, and 2 24" T4HO plus LED strip is not enough for 36 gallon?
2) Dose EI throughout the week and that I'm only doing it once (and that I'm dosing less than a third of what is suggested). My rebuttal: true, but at the end of the week with even dosing micros and macros once each, all levels are good. I started dosing EI at the suggested levels, and even with 50% water changes weekly, my phosphate levels were around 8.

I'm not saying I'm not wrong here! Clearly something(s) can be improved, but I'm at a loss of what?

 

[Brian_Nano12g]

Hi,

I'm just wondering why you're using eggcrate light diffusion panels as a lid? Doesn't that reduce your light output? The red bulb in the t5ho is also meant for color enhancement, there's inherently less PAR produced from them. Try switching that bulb for a midday 6500k bulb of decent quality. To further exacerbate the reduced light intensity produced by having eggcrate and a red bulb, the water lettuce is a floating plant right? That right there is blocking light underneath. And let's face it, the 36g is a 21" tall tank. There's quite some distance for light to penetrate.. red spectrum has the hardest time to reach the bottom of a tall tank. In fact, it's one of the first spectrum wavelengths that get filtered out by water depth (that's why everything seems blue in the deep when you scuba).

Can't really comment on your LED strip. Not all LEDs are created equal. So without knowing PAR data, it's hard to determine it's impact.

The only plants that I think would help indicate impact of your lighting are the Ludwigia and the bacopa. Anubias is such a slow grower it would be as exciting as the old adage of watching paint dry. Can't comment on water lettuce since i haven't had it before. Just know that floating plants block light.

Everything else in terms of ferts and CO2 sound good. I think it's your lighting and the things working against it.

 

[fish4phil]

The egg crate was only recent - I don't keep the air conditioning on all the time, the tank was often at 84 degrees with my glass lid, switched to egg crate less than a week ago and temp dropped to 78/80. I would guess that egg crate blocks less light than glass?

The water lettuce is planted (some do float it), but I do have Amazon Frogbit. Not a lot, maybe 10-15 of them each with 3-4 leaves floating and moving all the time. But a good point there, I'll consider removing it (though I'd like it in there for a future buy of hatchet fish, right?)

Interesting about the red - it was bought for the plants, I'll put the regular daylight in for 2 daylights. So it would be the same PAR I think, but different colors/wavelengths. I'll try it. Thanks

 

[fish4phil]

Everything there mentioned is about more light -- wouldn't that increase the algae issue?

 

[aqua_chem]

I'm just wondering why you're using eggcrate light diffusion panels as a lid? Doesn't that reduce your light output?

The egg panel probably wont reduce it by as much as a window screen will, but it would probably reduce it by somewhat.

The red bulb in the t5ho is also meant for color enhancement, there's inherently less PAR produced from them. Try switching that bulb for a midday 6500k bulb of decent quality.

Is there though? Red bulbs are usually dominantly red (no kidding) with some blue and less green/yellow, which is honestly a pretty good place for plants, being as they will use the red/blue and not the green/yellow as extensively (accessory pigments only). That might be a trick of the PAR meters more than an actually decrease in usable energy.




Have you ever tried dosing EI as directed?

Are your plants showing any sign of deficiency?

Is your water lettuce seriously not growing? Pics?

How are you diffusing CO2?

Where's your drop checker located relative to your plants?

 

[Brian_Nano12g]

Do you have a close-up pic of the algae? Is it BBA?

 

[fish4phil]

The egg panel probably wont reduce it by as much as a window screen will, but it would probably reduce it by somewhat.



Is there though? Red bulbs are usually dominantly red (no kidding) with some blue and less green/yellow, which is honestly a pretty good place for plants, being as they will use the red/blue and not the green/yellow as extensively (accessory pigments only). That might be a trick of the PAR meters more than an actually decrease in usable energy.

Have you ever tried dosing EI as directed?

Yes, when I first started with plants. This was 6 months ago, I can't remember if it was substantial growth, but the phosphates were at least 8 after 2-3 weeks of 50% water changes weekly. I can't remember Nitrates, but that seems awfully high...dangerously high? I'm not sure.

Are your plants showing any sign of deficiency?

The Amazon Frogbit has some holes in it sometimes, otherwise, the water lettuce is just turning brown slowly (I think it's just algae). When I pull a plant out of the substrate (which is Eco-Complete, and I use root tabs, forgot to mention in OP), the roots always look bright white, healthy, growing strong.

Is your water lettuce seriously not growing? Pics?

Yup, seriously (weird, right?). I have 2 kinds of water lettuce too (thinner and broader). The only pic is the one posted in the original post. Sorry it's a bit small/blurry. But yeah, I've had the water lettuce for at least 4-5 months now, and I've trimmed it once, maybe twice. All other parameters the same.

How are you diffusing CO2?

UP Aqua Inline CO2 Atomizer. Leaves millions of bubbles everywhere in the tank, super ugly looking. A 5 LB tank lasts be 4 months or so.

Where's your drop checker located relative to your plants?

2 inches from the top of the water line

 

[fish4phil]

Do you have a close-up pic of the algae? Is it BBA?

The algae looks identical to the "Brush/Red Algae" (courtesy of aquahobby.org

Little fuzzy patches all over. I can only scrape it off the class with a straight edge. Wiping, fingernails, algae scruber all don't work

 

[jetajockey]

I think you need way more plants in there for one. Are your plants pearling at all? Have they ever? Are you using a calibrated reference solution for the drop checker?

 

[Brian_Nano12g]

The egg panel probably wont reduce it by as much as a window screen will, but it would probably reduce it by somewhat.



Is there though? Red bulbs are usually dominantly red (no kidding) with some blue and less green/yellow, which is honestly a pretty good place for plants, being as they will use the red/blue and not the green/yellow as extensively (accessory pigments only). That might be a trick of the PAR meters more than an actually decrease in usable energy.

This thread has someone who measured a 20% decrease in PAR when an eggcrate was used between the light and tank.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=472594

Not too sure about red bulbs. I'm just repeating what I've seen posted numerous times. My t5ho expertise is almost zilch. I think since the OP doesn't have red plants, then the red bulb isn't necessary. If he had a quad t5ho fixture, then I'd definitely keep one in there. But when light seems to be a limiting factor in a dual t5 fixture on a tall tank, I think two midday bulbs would be better. Anyways, there's a good amount of red spectrum already in a 6500k bulb.

 

[Brian_Nano12g]

The algae looks identical to the "Brush/Red Algae" (courtesy of aquahobby.org

Little fuzzy patches all over. I can only scrape it off the class with a straight edge. Wiping, fingernails, algae scruber all don't work

Spot treat with a syringe and H2O2. It will annihilate it. Looks like bba to me.


Edit:
Same picture, with good solutions:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=68793

 

[fish4phil]

I think you need way more plants in there for one. Are your plants pearling at all? Have they ever? Are you using a calibrated reference solution for the drop checker?

They have pearled before, when I cranked the CO2 way up (bright yellow drop checker), but that was a couple months ago. No pearling since. Millions of bubbles everywhere in the tank is a big demotivator (solutions?).

Yes, I have tested my drop checker to be 4dkh

What plants would you suggest? I'm feeling "desperate" - even the "fast growing, grows like a weed" water lettuce isn't growing. Whatever you or Brian or other suggest, I'll buy (literally).

Spot treat with a syringe and H2O2. It will annihilate it. Looks like bba to me.


Edit:
Same picture, with good solutions:
BBA and BGA - Causes & Treatments

H202 and syringe when the aquarium is full? would that harm the fish? or do a water change, lower the level, and do it?

Hugely helpful link. If BBA is caused by not enough CO2 and too high (in relationship) lights, and my plants aren't growing, maybe I'm just not injecting enough CO2? I'll increase the CO2 today

 

[Coyne]

Your fish should be fine with the H2O2 as long as you dont go overboard with it. I try to keep it about 1ml/gallon of water.
Turn off your filter first. The H2O2 can wipe out your bio filter. Leave the filters off for about 20-30 minutes after treatment. I think it becomes inert after that much time has passed.
I typically do a water change afterwards to be on the safe side, but I couldnt really say if its required.
You should see the BBA turn reddish in color within the next day or two. In my experience its usually gone inside of a week. My Harlequin Rasboras will sometimes pick at the dying/dead algae.

Ive been in a war with BBA for almost a year now and I think (hope) Im starting to slowly gain some ground. I found that increasing the carbon (either CO2 and Glut) helped as did increasing the amount of fertilizer I dose (PPS-Pro).

On another note: None of my tanks have any kind of lid, but I also dont have any fish that are known jumpers. I do lose a bit of water to evaporation, but I do PWCs weekly so its never SUPER low. If you think your fish wont jump out, then maybe remove the light diffuser all together.

 

[fish4phil]

Oh jeeze, I should have remembered doing this. When I bought the fixture, I bought Coral Life bulbs. The pink rosette bulb is in storage. The 2 bulbs I actually have are a 6,700K and a 10,000K. Some argue that the 10,000K is for saltwater, but would the 10,000K have fewer PAR for my plants?

Edit: quick Google says 10,000 is fine to grow plants, and it visually compliments a 6,500 or 6,700 well. So that leaves me with: increasing the CO2, get rid of the floating Amazon Frogbit, and buying more plants to help the existing plants. Sound right?

Sent from my mobile aquarium device

 

[Brian_Nano12g]

And the bulbs are only 4 months old? 6500k + 10k is a good combo. I ran that in my PC light hood for a year.

I'm just wondering what PAR you're getting overall? Any way to rent a PAR meter at the LFS? Any PAR info on that LED strip?
You have CO2 and ferts going.. I still think lighting might be not enough.

For plants.. Try some rotala rotundifolia, Hygrophila corymbosa 'angustifolia', or Myriophyllum mattogrossense... these stems grew light beasts when u have enough light, ferts, and CO2.

 

[fish4phil]

Here's the LED I have (rated at ~14 PAR at 19" from substrate): Marineland 21-inch Hidden LED

According to Hoppy's thread on PAR, the AquaticLife 36" 4 bulb at 25" from substrate is 90 PAR. He mentioned T5HO bulbs > 24" are just longer, and do not output more PAR. So, my 2-bulb T5HO should be about 45 PAR total.

45 PAR (minus 30% loss due to lid/egg crate) plus 14 PAR = ~46 PAR. That's considered "medium" or "medium-high" lighting, isn't it? That may be subjective, but 46 PAR should grow water lettuce faster than trimming it once every other month, shouldn't it?

Think I need to invest in another dual T5HO fixture? 96 Watts total plus the LED?

Do you have any of those plants you mentioned, would you happen to be selling any?

 

[Brian_Nano12g]

Yeah 45 PAR should be able to grow a lot of plants. So eighty-six the light idea, I guess.

I've had all those plants, but the rotala is all I have now. I unfortunately live on the planet mercury (aka: Arizona) so it's too hot to ship right now. I'll be selling my plant trimmings again in October. But I'm sure there's a bunch of hobbyists here that may accommodate you. Check the classifieds here and on TPT. Also Peabody's Paradise.

 

[fish4phil]

Thanks Brian (and I just learned what "86 that (whatever)" means)

So, if it's not the light, and I'm dosing although only once per week after a 50% WC and all levels are good at the end of the week, I have good substrate, I use root tabs...then the only thing left is CO2. I've increased that this morning (saw no pearling today). Am I thinking of everything?

 

[Brian_Nano12g]

Sorry, the 86 came from the time when i used to work at a restaurant. Lol

I can't really comment on your dosing regimen. I dose PPS-Pro, and dose daily. So I'm not sure if that can be a culprit.

I think you've thought of everything. Just get more plants, especially the fast growing variety.

 

[jetajockey]

I suggest getting some wisteria, water sprite, and other various faster growing hygro species. Maybe some dwarf sag to fill in the foreground. If you end up looking for an online vendor let me know, I know a guy.