Plants starting to die?

[plantnoob]

So I've had this newly planted tank for about 2 months now. The tank is 70 gal with an Eheim 2217 canister filter and there is also a marineland penguin 150 in the 20 gal sump.
So overall is say adequate filtration. It's a moderately planted tank. Pic below:



There are several stems of Java Ferns in 3 clusters, 2 Anubias Nana, 2 large and 2 small Amazon swords. I just recently planted some Pygmy swords in the front, that have mostly melted from the immersion. I expect them to grow though once they get adjusted. I follow EI dosing with KNO3, KH2PO4 and Seachem equilibrium, although I've been dosing once a week enough for a 40 gal tank. My basis was the low number of plants. I have 2 T5HO lights with an estimated 37 par at the substrate (Rotala butterfly). Last week I started dosing Seachem excel enough also for a 50 gal tank, every other day.

I've recently noticed the leaves starting to brown in the Java ferns and also some of the leaves in the swords dying/browning. Pictures below:









I'm not sure what the reason is. Maybe my imagination but until I started dosing excel, the swords and ferns seemed fine. Could excel cause something like this?

As a side note, I have some algae on the tank walls, maybe green spot plus some diatom problem. My water pH is 7.8.

I'm getting rid of all the swords soon and replacing with Crypt undulata and crypt balansae.

I don't want them to have the same issues too.

Appreciate any advice!

Edit: Substrate is eco complete. I also have a couple of root tabs near the swords.


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[plantnoob]

Quick note: the reason for getting rid of the swords is my psycho bristle nose who sits on the leaves and goes to town. All new leaves are transparent with holes in them. I've grown fond of the guy and going the more expensive route of getting new plants!


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[Caliban07]

Browning/melting is often a sign of carbon deficiency/instability.

Have you noticed any new growth from the base of the swords?

If you are going to use excel I would suggest adding the correct amount for your tank daily an hour before the lights come on.


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[plantnoob]

Caliban, thanks. One thing I've struggled with is the plant mass/density and the corresponding dosing. I consider my tank to be lightly planted and that's been my rationale to start with a lower dosing. Can you help me understand the dosing philosophy a little better? My assumption is if there aren't too many plants, then there ends up being more nutrients in the water, say when going with common dosing strategies which generally recommend ferts per gallon of water. I've been afraid of going all the way due to algae concerns. Is the thought process similar for liquid carbon? Less plants = less than recommended carbon or is it a function of what the plants can absorb based on the carbon concentration in the water?

As always, thanks for the response.


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[Caliban07]

Hi Plantnoob

There's lots to consider. You have to remember that dosing liquid carbon is an inefficient and unstable way of getting carbon to your plants when compared with gas injection.

The metabolic processes that are involved in order to breakdown the glut for uptake are unknown to the layman and if this is indeed how liquid carbon works (which seems to be the premise in other forums by more esteemed people) then you still have to provide good water circulation in order to increase the potential plant uptake.

The rate of photosynthesis is dictated directly by the intensity of the light fixture. The more photons striking the leaf surface the faster the electrochemical reactions occur. The plants have no say over this. In order for the plant to grow healthily it needs to be able to obtain sufficient amounts of nutrition that matches the rate of photosynthesis. These nutrients need to be available throughout the whole photoperiod. Any shortfalls with result in deficiency.

You are correct in that plant mass will have a say in how much liquid carbon is required but also it is the light intensity and light duration that will control how quickly it is used. Different species will have different requirements and uptake rates. There is no way to find this kind of information based on the usage of liquid co2.

Once it's gone the plants remain carbon limited and they cannot control the mechanisms that metabolise the carbon efficiently. This means that they are always trying to adapt to unstable carbon availability.

Glutaradehyde has s half life of about 13 hours which means only half remains after this time. If you are skipping a day then you may have a day where the plants take up very little carbon.

As for dosing and dosages. I'm just working on some maths now that may help. Even with the information I provide the only way you can tell if you are dosing enough carbon is by looking at your plants. The same applies to gas injection though the major difference with gas injection is that the carbon concentration is being maintained at an estimated concentration of around 30ppm which seems to be an adequate amount for most planted tanks.


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[plantnoob]

Caliban, thanks. What you say makes sense to me.

I'll start by dosing daily, thereby achieving some stability. Looks like I have to go through some trial and error with the dosing of both ferts and liquid carbon. I've read several of your posts in other threads about green spot algae (I assume that's what I have since it's green and spotty on the tank walls, fairly hard to scrub) potentially being from phosphate deficiency. I've upped the phosphate levels closer to the "recommended" dose. Will post on how that works out. Also still need to take care of that brown slimy looking thing on and below the substrate that I guess are diatoms.

If I had the means and time, this would be a great project to work on - light intensity being constant, what the relationship would be between plant mass, water volume and dosing. Theory aside, some empirical data on this would be very useful. I'm sure it exists, just not readily available to most!




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[Caliban07]

Caliban, thanks. What you say makes sense to me.

I'll start by dosing daily, thereby achieving some stability. Looks like I have to go through some trial and error with the dosing of both ferts and liquid carbon. I've read several of your posts in other threads about green spot algae (I assume that's what I have since it's green and spotty on the tank walls, fairly hard to scrub) potentially being from phosphate deficiency. I've upped the phosphate levels closer to the "recommended" dose. Will post on how that works out. Also still need to take care of that brown slimy looking thing on and below the substrate that I guess are diatoms.

If I had the means and time, this would be a great project to work on - light intensity being constant, what the relationship would be between plant mass, water volume and dosing. Theory aside, some empirical data on this would be very useful. I'm sure it exists, just not readily available to most!




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No you're right. As far as liquid carbon is concerned only a select few and Seachem have access to that information amongst other liquid co2 manufacturers of course.

They all use fancy terms for their liquid carbon products but my hunch is that they are all just glut and water. Much like the ph test kit and bromothymol blue. Probably the same supplier, different labels.

This is why metricide 14 is used. You get more volume, it's more concentrated and it's cheaper. People mix there own 1.5% solutions using pure glut. The trade off is that glut is dangerous if inhaled or spilled on skin or in eyes. I don't think it's something I want lying around in my home. I think metricide 14 is 2.5%. Not as potent but care should still be used.

Therefore the math is:

1 litre of excel contains about 15900ppm of 'glut'

If you dose 3ml a day then

(3/1000 * 15900) / tank volume

This will give you your ppm dosage.

In most cases it's less than 1ppm. (More so if you have a large tank) and you have to remember that excel normally comes in half litre bottles. The ppm's are pretty low considering that the toxic levels to fauna start at around 2ppm (the planted tank, barreport)
Probably why people get away with dosing well above recommended levels. Especially if it's being broken down quickly. But could you imagine if Seachem recommended dosages levels close to toxic levels and people started to report deaths? They are more likely to err on the side of caution.

I'm not telling you to add more. These are just my thoughts. Your plants are your best indicator.

I dosed 8ml of easycarbo (supposedly more concentrated than excel) today in my 180 litre. Co2 bottle ran out



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[Caliban07]

As for phosphates. Once I upped them to....I can't remember I just put about 1.5g in dry.....about 2ppm it disappeared off my plants. I stopped dosing for 2 weeks now. It hasn't come back on the plants but it's spotting up all over the glass. I expect it to return on the plants now my co2 has run out. I haven't changed my water for 2 weeks either. Lots of unexpected events occurring.

Nymphoides Taiwan has significantly a) reduced flow and b) devouring the majority of my carbon. It looks magnificent but my Downoi is struggling. It's stretching and becoming leggy as the light is obstructed and carbon is in short supply and it's dropped its lower leaves and some of them have started to brown. Much like other fast growing stem plants. This is what happens. Some of the older sword leaves have started to grow BBA.

I know how to rectify it so I'm not overly concerned. When things calm down here I'll get back on to it but these are the symptoms of low co2. If I was to leave it longer I would expect translucency and weakened leaves, browning and melting, lots of shed leaves and increasing organics. It just becomes and algae playground. Pay day I am ordering a co2 fire extinguisher as my soda stream cylinder running at the bubble rate required to keep things in check has lasted me just over a month.




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[plantnoob]

Caliban, thanks for the concentration guidelines. You're right, with the max concentration in mind, I'll slowly increase dosing if I feel the plants need it. I'll have to play around with the phosphates too. It's encouraging that the algae went down in your tank with higher phosphate concentration. I plan to play a bit with light intensity also. Just need to figure out a systematic way of doing all this.




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[Caliban07]

Caliban, thanks for the concentration guidelines. You're right, with the max concentration in mind, I'll slowly increase dosing if I feel the plants need it. I'll have to play around with the phosphates too. It's encouraging that the algae went down in your tank with higher phosphate concentration. I plan to play a bit with light intensity also. Just need to figure out a systematic way of doing all this.




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You're welcome. Hope you get it sorted. ?


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[Caliban07]

Caliban, thanks for the concentration guidelines. You're right, with the max concentration in mind, I'll slowly increase dosing if I feel the plants need it. I'll have to play around with the phosphates too. It's encouraging that the algae went down in your tank with higher phosphate concentration. I plan to play a bit with light intensity also. Just need to figure out a systematic way of doing all this.




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Just wanted to clarify on the concentrations. These concentrations are based for glut/tap water solutions of 1.5% glut. Excel may not be 1.5%, contain other solutes, may not be glutaradehyde and may not be made up with water.

These are very rough guidelines and my point was to try to show that we may be well under the toxic levels of glut at standard dosing.


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[Caliban07]

Also is 15000ppm not 15900.

So it I had a my 1.5% glut/water solution

In my 180 litres tank =

I dose 8ml

(8/1000 x 15000) / 180 = 0.67ppm

I could probably get away with 16ml or maybe even more in my tank if the toxic levels are indeed 2ppm +


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[Delapool]

Also is 15000ppm not 15900.

So it I had a my 1.5% glut/water solution

In my 180 litres tank =

I dose 8ml

(8/1000 x 15000) / 180 = 0.67ppm

I could probably get away with 16ml or maybe even more in my tank if the toxic levels are indeed 2ppm +


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That's what I had as normal dosing I think. So I guess I'm at 3x (2ppm) normally. Maybe shrimp would be most sensitive to it?

I find new plants cope fairly well with glut dosing at that level now.

For the OP - did you still think excel dosing was a link with plant issues?

 

[Caliban07]

That's what I had as normal dosing I think. So I guess I'm at 3x (2ppm) normally. Maybe shrimp would be most sensitive to it?

I find new plants cope fairly well with glut dosing at that level now.

For the OP - did you still think excel dosing was a link with plant issues?

Yes I reckon shrimp would suffer first. It's good to know that 8ml in my tank my not be dangerous per se, but then I am using a supposedly more concentrated product of which the true ingredients are unknown.


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[plantnoob]

Just wanted to clarify on the concentrations. These concentrations are based for glut/tap water solutions of 1.5% glut. Excel may not be 1.5%, contain other solutes, may not be glutaradehyde and may not be made up with water.

These are very rough guidelines and my point was to try to show that we may be well under the toxic levels of glut at standard dosing.


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Understood. I had started with the instructions in the bottle as the starting guideline without knowing what's the upper limit on concentration. Now that I know 2 ppm or thereabouts is toxic, I'll make sure I give it a good safety factor and stay below that limit.


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[plantnoob]

That's what I had as normal dosing I think. So I guess I'm at 3x (2ppm) normally. Maybe shrimp would be most sensitive to it?

I find new plants cope fairly well with glut dosing at that level now.

For the OP - did you still think excel dosing was a link with plant issues?

Either Excel dosing or poor Excel dosing. I've really not been very consistent with it. Although, I do think the issues began after I started dosing excel. I'll definitely post updates with more systematic dosing.


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[Delapool]

Understood. I had started with the instructions in the bottle as the starting guideline without knowing what's the upper limit on concentration. Now that I know 2 ppm or thereabouts is toxic, I'll make sure I give it a good safety factor and stay below that limit.


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Tbh I'm not sure we do know 2ppm is limit? I've just got it as a working theory. I spent a weekend trying to search on this and gave up.

Edit - sorry if off track a bit?!

 

[plantnoob]

Same. Haven't heard anyone talk in terms of concentration so far other than this thread. I'm sure the threads exist, but just haven't been able to find any. That said, I'm generally more conservative with this, and while I want the plants to thrive, the fauna rank higher. So intend to stay under 2 ppm unless absolutely needed.


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[Caliban07]

http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr-report/general-plant-topics/7274-is-there-a-nutrient-deficiency

Tom's last post here. Also interesting comments about co2 deficiency throughout.

Some here

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/glutaraldehyde.22296/page-8

More here,
http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...465-wet-s-ei-modeling-dosing-calculator/page4

seems to have gone up to 4-5ppm for inverts. Also a good case to debunk nitrate toxicity whilst we're at it.

The problem will be the same with everything else they'll be very little on toxicity for the species we keep. Be all trout, bass and cat fish. I'll have a look later. My plants seem to respond well at 5ml-8ml so I'm wondering if I even need more.





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[plantnoob]

So this thread really got me thinking about everything I'm doing with my tank. Today I found my Anubias starting to brown and curl a little bit. The only way I can describe the way it looked is "burnt". So going back to the basics - when I first set up my tank, my basis was the age old wpg rule and it felt like the 2 T5 HO tubes that I have were the right choice for my low tech low light tank. But after Caliban's diagnosis of carbon deficiency, I started to think why that should happen in the first place. The simple answer is that I have way too much light. In following the links in one of the threads here, I calculate the PAR at 20 inches from the light source to be about 60. General guidelines I've come across suggest I can't have that much light without injected co2. So I plan to cut my light intensity in half by removing one of the T5s. This gives me a more manageable 30 PAR. I'll still dose liquid carbon but feel I have some room to experiment.

Any flaws you see here?


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