Preparing for a 55 planted

[ferret]

Hey guys,

I'm preparing to build up a new 55 gallon. I've got a fairly unlimited budget for it, and want to do things right. I've kept plants in the past but never in a tank truly prepared for it.

I'm interesting in java ferns and moss, of course, as well as swords (Specificly I'd like some sort of small grass like plant for the bottom, like a micro sword..). It'll be 48in I believe, standard 55G. Going to try to get glass tops, and will run two Penguin 330s on it. (I have some just lying around)

So I have three questions, though one is a bit odd..

What kind of lighting do I need? I'm going to aim for a 110watt minimum, possibly more depending on how difficult finding parts will be.. But I don't know what the various types of bulbs are all about, such as 10k, etc. Those values mean nothing to me..

Second.. what should I use for a substrate? I've got swords and ferns growing fine in a variety of 'normal' substrates (Various smooth river pebble substrates), but I want something that will support the plants a little better. I also want to take into consideration a desire for loaches. I haven't decided on dojo or clown loaches yet.. The contents of the 29G in my signature would be the other tank mates.

And third, my most bizarre question. Plants like nitrates. It struck me, that I could possibly move the rather high nitrate water of my Malawi and Oscar tanks to the 55 gallon as a kind of water change (Just the water, no gravel debris would be syphoned for this). Any comments?

Thanks in advance,
ferret

 

[Guest]

Comments..... go with a 75 gallon tank instead of the 55. A 55 is a real pain to aquascape due to the limited width.

On the lighting 110 watts would be minimum. And at that level you might find you have a hard time growing micro sword or any other small foreground plant. I would suggest you head over to www.ahsupply.com and take a look at their lighting setups. They also have a very good selection of bulbs but I really like the GE 9325k bulbs that you can get from http://www.atlantalightbulbs.com/ecart/10browse.asp?search=F55BX/AR/FS.

For the substrate I would recommend Eco-Complete. It's black, looks great and the plants love it.

You could add in the nitrate rich water but it seems to me that it would be a hit or miss dosing method. It's much easier to pull out the jar of KNO3 and the measuring spoons and add just what you need.

I would suggest that you take a look at my FAQ to get you jump started on planted tanks. Also I want to question your choice of filters. While the Penguin filters are great filters for fish tanks they are not the best choice for planted tanks. They will out-gas the CO2 the plants want. In fact I can see down the road that you may well end up with a higher light tank and needing CO2 injection. I would suggest a nice cannister filter for the tank.

If fact if you go with the 75 gallon tank I would recommend that you start off with a 4X55 watt AH Supply kit and pressurized CO2 and discover the entire world of planted tanks.

 

[ferret]

I'd have to get that one by the wife Talk has been of a 55G, but maybe I could push a 2nd 75. My fish bioload will probably be better in a 75 anyways. I want loaches but was feeling a bit nervous about them in a 55. I've read your faq sticky thread already and am in the process of reading through your webpage.

I've always liked the Biowheels but I can always pack them up for other projects. I'll just float the wheels in another tank, fish don't bother them. I'll end up with 2 extra 330s just sitting around, after I decommission the 29G and replace the one on the 75G with a 2nd Emperor 400. Never know when an extra filter will come in handy though.

Which canister would you suggest? This is an area I haven't gone into yet. I know the various brandnames and such, but not much about their maintenance or setup. I'll also put some research into the CO2 system..

Oh.. on average.. what do you think this will cost (Not including tank or sand, just other equipment).. My wife has a tentatively set $600 limit (for now).

Nice birds btw

 

[ferret]

My research into prices seems fairly decent for the moment. Looking at about $130 for one of AH's canopies.. About $50 for the 4x55 kit. Estimating approximately $300 for tank and stand, depending on where I get it, and $40 for the two bulbs. $520 right now. Plus whatever the filter will cost and the Eco-Complete. Seems Eco-Complete is about $25 a bag, 20lbs a bag, and I'll probably get 100lbs, so $645 now. Canister is anywhere from $50 to $150.. I think I can push this past the wife.

co2 is the only remaining factor.

 

[BrianNY]

Cost can be a huge factor in setting up "the ideal" planted tank, and sounds like that's where you want to go Ferret. Let me tell you what I've spent so far on trying to do this in 125g. First I didn't want to cut corners and realize I needed to upgrade later. I believe that saves me money in the long run but who really knows. It's so expensive that I needed to budget this out over a period of time and I'm still not done yet.

From Drs Foster and Blah - 14 bags of Eco Complete - roughly $370 including freight. This was the best price I could find. I went for all Eco Complete because I sure as hell don't want to change the substrate in a tank that large later.

From bigals - Eheim 2217 cannister $100.00. I chose this filter because of the size and spray bar attachment. I very quickly realized that I did not have enough water movement and added a Fluval 404 at $90.00. If I had it to over I'd have 2 Fluvals because I hate working with the eheim. It's much too dificult to get in to clean. JMO

From AH Supply - 6 X 55 brite light kit with 6 6700K bulbs $340 inc. freight. Plus I built an enclosure which probably cost me another $30 for materials.

From Aqua Botonics - Pressurized CO2 system with "All" the bells and whistles including 10g tank. I've a quote from them at $347. I haven't ordered it yet but I'm sure I will in another 2 weeks.

Plus I've spent over $200 on driftwood and plants. Probably another $100 on heaters, test kits, ferts.

All in all, a very expensive deal. I'm sure it all could have been done for a lot less, but this is just the way I am. Good Luck

 

[ferret]

Not worried about plants .. Those aren't included in my setup budget.

I guess I'm gonna look at the Fluval 404 then. I'll probably use a 300watt heater as I currently do in my current 75 and 90. They're temperatures by all tests seem to be uniform throughout the tank, but then both have dual HOB filters.

It seems like I can stay under $800 for setup, and since I already have most of the fish (I'm pondering some buernos aires tetras now that I'm pondering a 75G. I love those fish) the rest of the price will be in a good piece of drift wood (Probably just one fairly large piece) and the plants. I've got quite a few swords I can transplant over.. three large ones in my current 75G have about 6 sprouts floating about on long stems. That tank also contains about 6-7 baby java ferns that have escape the grasps of the two originals.. Oscars probably helped that.

So the CO2 is where I'm stuck :/

 

[BrianNY]

Well I know the CO2 can be done for a lot less then the number I gave you If you don't add CO2 though, with that kind of lighting you're in for a lot of algae probs.
A lot of folks here told me that and they were correct!!! So I'm using Flourish Excel to add CO2 until I get the pressurized system.

 

[ferret]

Looked at Aqua Botanic.. Looks like I'd need that Complete System 1 by their standards, which is $250. That might not be happening immediately. How much comes in a package/canister of Flourish Excel and how long does it last? I might have to use that approach for a while as well.

 

[Guest]

I would recommend the Rena Filstar XP-3 which is $90 at Big Al's. I have one and love it. I also have the XP-2. You can do pressurized CO2 for under $150 easy. Check out www.aquatic-store.com for a Milwaukee All-in-one regulator. Get a cylinder and build the reactor out of PVC pipe. Going this route you can still use a Penguin and get the benefit of the Bio-Wheel you just use a bit more CO2. And you don't need the CO2 controller. I run my CO2 24/7 because the Bio-Wheel keeps the water well Oxygenated.

See if you can find a LFS that carries or can order the Eco-Complete.

I can tell you that it's very easy to spend $10-$20 a gallon on the hardware for a planted tank. But you really don't want to cut corners.

 

[ferret]

I think I'll go with the XP-3, I like the price and I've read nothing bad about them. Big Al's gives me pause though.. Maybe try to find one locally. I don't want to wait weeks for it.

What exactly is the CO2 cylinder? Like a cartridge of CO2? How often do they need to be replaced or if at all?

I think I can find 5 bags of Eco-Complete if I go to 2-3 LFSs. I know a few have it, just maybe not in bulk.

I also had the following idea for the 4x55 setup.. Would it be a good idea to offset the timers on teh two light fixtures by an hour? I want to run my light a little later (10am to 10pm) so I can enjoy it after work. I want the front fixture to come on at 10am, followed by the second at 11am. At 9pm, I'd want the front fixture to go off, and the second at 10pm. So there's an hour of dimmer light, kinda like a dawn/twilight but not quite. Since people seem to suggestion 10-12 hours of light, I thought this sounded cool. And since only one of the lights turns on in the morning, might not stun the fish as much.

 

[BrianNY]

I've got my lights staggered at roughly 5 minute intervals. TankGirl suggested something that so far is helping to keep the algae down. The lights come on at 10am and go off at 3pm. Then come back on from 5pm to 10pm.

 

[Guest]

Ferret,

Staggering the lights like that will work just fine. Good luck finding a decent price on a Filstar at a LFS. Around here the XP-3 runs around $170 and up. You might try www.petsolutions.com and other on-line merchants. I have ordered from Big Al's and it takes about 7-9 days to get to the left coast from NY.

 

[ferret]

I've just read so many bad reviews about them. I'll give them a chance though. I'm probably going to start ordering things this weekend.

 

[BrianNY]

I've been using them for a few months now without any problems. They will even take things back that you don't use, no questions asked. I find them very reputable and they'll save you a bundle.

 

[madasafish]

Are you sure you read correctly? BigAls is a godsend, and they have excellent service. They're always willing to give a deliv. confirm. #, always deliver quickly by UPS, always have the lowest prices (sometimes considerably so), and have a wonderful selection.

I've had only excellent experiences with them! I'd advise putting together a list of things you need from BigAls and getting it all in one large order. I often forget to order something, then buy it from the LFS because I know the price difference would be negated by buying again from BA and having to pay shipping.

I dunno about Eco Complete--I'm not sure if you can get it decently cheap elsewhere. If not, get that from BA too.

 

[madasafish]

Oh, and BTW, ferret.

Water changes are necessary in all tanks--they get rid of undesirables and unfilterables and keep the water clearer. Though the idea of reusing the water is an ingenious one, I'd still advise putting fresh water in there every week. If you've got no source of fresh water, the concentration of an unfilterable substance will just continue to rise...

 

[ferret]

Welllllllll..

I have a new 90 gallon sitting empty. The LFS only had one 75G, and its was oak. My wife wanted black trim, sooooooo. I got a 90G WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

Ok, so new questions..

Is a single Filstar XP-3 going to be sufficent in combination with at least 1 Penguin 330?

Will 6-7 bags of Eco-Complete be enough? That's 120-140 lbs.

Do I need to go up to the 6x55 watt system or will the 4x55 still be sufficent?

 

[ferret]

Gonna get 7 bags of Eco-Complete and the Filstar XP-3 tomorrow.. Just got to decide whether to ship it here or my parents.

 

[Guest]

Seven bags will give you 3" of average depth. Great going on the 90, much better tank than the 55. I would say that you might need to place a power head or two in the tank to get decent water circulation and avoid dead spots. If it were me I would place a pair of XP-3 filters on there and be good to go. As for the lights. I would start with the 4x55 and then once you have that settled and going well see if you feel the need to go with another 2x55 watt kit. The WPG rule does break down on this size tank. It's the same dimensions as a 75 with 4" extra height. If you want to grow Glosso you might need the extra 110 watts to get enough light energy to the substrate.

 

[ferret]

K, sounds good then. I'm gonna stick with just a single XP-3 for now, since its rated to 175 gallons for filtration. With the Penguin 330 sitting there, and maybe a powerhead or two, that should be good to go. Got everything ordered now so just got to wait!

I've gotten five bags for now, enough to get started. Various local LFS have 1-2 bags each, so I ordered 5 from big Al's for the base, and then I can get more as needed locally, with the bulk taken care of.

Final question.. Will a 6x55 system even fit in AHSupply's 75/90G dimension enclosure? It seems like it would be a tight fit. They mention 220 watt max. Oh well.

Thanks for all the help.