Red Ludwigia Help wanted

[Backwater]

HI Guys n Gals,

I have a 10gallon with 3 new bundles of red Ludwigia and about 4-5 stems from old cuttings. The tank has a 2 layer substrate with a Laterite mix lower layer and small-medium river rock top layer. Also, in the tank is some Bacopa, some Anacharis and a very small amount of hornwort as well as some Peacock Fern (which is sprouting new growth but will probably die soon). My question is... has anyone else had to replant the Red Ludwigia several times before it gets through the mush stalk syndrome? I usually have to pull mine up, cut and replant 2-3 times before it takes a healthy hold. I found that it really likes a shallow planting... anyone else having this experience with Red Ludwigia and is it normal that it just likes a shallow planting ?


Pics below. Fuzy light is my sucky camera phone.
Ps yes I know my filters are very "unorthodox" (they are older Aqueal Aqua thrust units left over US stock) but my levels are always near perfect. Also, I switched to a Dual T5 2x28 6700K daylight over two 10gals replacing the 5500K that was over the Red Ludwigia so maybe that will help combat the mushy stalks.

 

[rkilling1]

What ferts are you adding to the water column? Mushing stems sound like a nutrient deficiency.

 

[Backwater]

I add a liquid plant fert once a week and I believe it's the one from API. I'll have to double check when I get home. Laterite mix is only about 1" deep and probably could benefit from adding or replaceing to at least 2-3"inchs becuase it's over a year old. Is straight out Eco Complete advised or is capping with a small layer or gravel ok ? I originally had a sand bottom layer and took it out because someone at LFS warned me about compaction. Only after I did it did I read that as long as the sand layer is under 2" you're probably ok and not at high risk for over compaction.

I think removing the sand layer really hurt the nutrients of the tank. The tops of the R.Lud are growing fine and I checked last night and the roots are firming up again but like I said after the 3rd stem cutting. Perhaps nutrients are back in swing since I removed the sand 3 weeks ago or perhaps the shallow planting is helping. It seems the R.Lud ALWAYS liked shallow planting in that tank because even with the sand layer I had to shallow plant even with the Monnieri aswell. Also, I was using Phosgaurd to combat a BGA problem about 3 months ago … I have since removed the Phosgaurd and phosphates are about 2... I'd like to see them at 3-5.

Thanks for reply and you're not the only one mentioning nutrient deficiencies as a possible cause for mushy stalks... It's something I didn't really consider. Any suggestions such as using substrate Fert sticks? Honestly, I wasn't sure if it was the sand/compaction causing the issue because the Bacopa Monnieri was having same issue but not as severly. Shallow plantings helped the Bacopa temendously.

friendly advise welcome.

 

[aqua_chem]

Sand has no nutrients in it. Removing the sand wouldn't have an impact on nutrients.


Stem melting usually means one of two things to me: poor CO2/cirrculation, and insufficient light. Of the two, it's usually the latter.

 

[Backwater]

My circulation is ideal (wasn't before the BGA but has been upgraded) as I have an Aquael Auqua thrust 60-100GPH power head/canister and bio sponge filteration setup with the nozzel pointing up to surface creating great agitation and circulation.The cansiter has 3 stage filtration in it and circulation is very good.

No Co2 injections but I'm using low level plants that don't really require it and I have the tank packed with over 15 fish but using Zeolite/carb mix (have been using Zeo/carb mixes for 8 years) that allow me to pack tanks and thus get the fish to make my Co2.

Giving the Co2, filtration, fert and substrates are ok I'm with you on suspecting the lights I started towards that conclusion yesterday and called my LFS to have have them hold onto a T8 Coral life Nutri Grow bulb and I'm picking it up on Friday. The current light on the Red Ludwigia/Molly tank is a Tropicsun 5500k and Honestly I think it's too low. I'd love to have a double T5 setup on it but good luck finding one for 20" or freshwater bulbs to fit it... best I can find is one Solarmax Dual T5 H.O 220 refugium light but that only comes with 10k and actinic and I can't find a floral bulb in T5 H.O. 18w anywhere. I just tried a 48" Dual T5NO/HE (2x28w) daylight over the tanks but the wisteria that was under a coralife Nutrigrow actually started to wilt under the dual 6700Ks (as apposed to loving the 6500K nutrigrow) and the two 6700K bulbs started to produces brown algae so it went back to the store. I can't find a plant bulb that is not H.O.

Pics of the tank and my wall unit attached.

PS.. Almost forgot to say thank you for confirming suspicions on the light! Love the site!

 

[aqua_chem]

Bulb color actually matters very little with light. Different colors all pretty much put out the same amount of light, with the exception of blue bubs.

10g are actually pretty easy to light with incandescent hoods by putting in 10-20w CFL bulbs in. There are some PC hoods as well, but you usually need to get a FW bulb. I have a 20" 40w PC fixture by Coralife that I haven't had a chance to use yet.

 

[Backwater]

Hi,
Thanks for advice but getting confused
I read a site a couple days ago that said in the past wattage mattered more but now it's all about spectrum. Pendulum swing? I am not saying they're right or wrong just now confused what to believe. I've been shooting for 6500K and 6700K colors for 20" bulbs but it's near impossible to find a 18" T5 Freshwater bulbs (6700k or flora 5500K-6500K) ANYWHERE.. It’s like they don't exists. I can find the fixtures in both DBP Solar Max and Coralife but they are listed as "refugium fixtures" and only carry the 10K and Actinics... I know nothing about the white box bulbs or how to adapt common florescent bulbs to meet aquarium needs. Any more help/advice or links would be great appreciated!

I'm sorry if I sound frustrated but I am lol. I've spent a lot of time making this wall unit, getting filters, substrate only to hit this incredibly huge wall for 20" inch freshwater lighting. Maybe there is a ton of bulbs out there but I'm not seeing ANY that are 18"inches for a 20"inch hood that are freshwater versions. Every 18" t5 bulb I can find is either 10k or Actinic.

I'm almost at the point that I rip my hair out and throw away the tanks because I can't get $5.00 plants to grow because no one makes my lights. I even tried a 48"HE (2x28) Dual 6700K light setup hanging over both tanks and after 3 days the Wisteria leafs were all curling down, the top shoots that morphed were creating too much shadow over the lower leafs and all I was growing was brown algae on the bio sponge... it was ridiculous... I took back the unit and the Wisteria really likes the Nutrigrow lamp but it's only 15w (corrected from 18w previous post) and just not casting enough light with the top ones shadowing the tank. I need a 2 bulb or perhaps an overhang compact like yours that can hit the whole tank. In the mean time, the Red Ludwigia, that was firming up and LOVING the 6700K, has now gone back to mushiness since I removed the Dual T5HE 48" strip...I'm having to trim mushy stalks every 2 days. I'm really at a loss... time and money ... it's been two weeks on this 4 different lighting tries and no luck... right now I took my single Coralife 48" HO took out the color max and putting the one 6700K daylight on it at 54w but that's just temp till I can find the right setup... My next plan of attack is possibly a 24" Coralife FRESHWATER T5 HO dual strip with 2x24watt bulbs. One is a colormax that I will replace with a Zoo med Flora Sun Max 5500K... The 24" looks like it has adjustable feet that will fit the 20". That's my next stip if I can't find 20" FW bulbs.

I'll take a look at that personal compact, If there are easy to find 20" solutions please feel free to link a bunch if you have the time. Perhaps the CP fixtures are the path I'm looking for but then again can I find the FW bulbs for the CP ? There in lies the rub. If you have links to 20" Lighting fixtures and FW bulbs I would love to know more.
sorry for wall of text

PS... FW bulbs you mean Freshwater right ? But what is a CFL ? Compact florecent ? Can you put those in an incandecent hood ? I switched out from incandesent years ago... you mean I have to go back to it ? lol

UPDATED: Seems like the 20" Coralife 40w compact has gone the way of the Dodo Bird. All I'm getting hits on are the 96w and 65w... The corresponding FW bulbs seem to have poofed to oblivion aswell leaving behind the dreaded 10K/Attinic dual gaurdians of doom... lol I needed the laugh.

 

[aqua_chem]

OK, let's break this down into individual parts.

I read a site a couple days ago that said in the past wattage mattered more but now it's all about spectrum. Pendulum swing? I am not saying they're right or wrong just now confused what to believe.

Then I'll say it. They're wrong. Spectrum matters very little once a number of essentials are met (and pretty much every bulb you see will meet these). Basically, any bulb between ~4000K and 12000K will work with largely insignificant difference. Hagen even makes a 18000K that, while a little bit blue, will work for FW.

This is assuming that they were talking about FW. SW is a little bit more finicky about some of this stuff.

I've been shooting for 6500K and 6700K colors for 20" bulbs but it's near impossible to find a 18" T5 Freshwater bulbs (6700k or flora 5500K-6500K) ANYWHERE.. It’s like they don't exists. I can find the fixtures in both DBP Solar Max and Coralife but they are listed as "refugium fixtures" and only carry the 10K and Actinics... I know nothing about the white box bulbs or how to adapt common florescent bulbs to meet aquarium needs. Any more help/advice or links would be great appreciated!

20" Is an awkward size to find high output fixtures for. Fortunately you can get an Incandescent Hood and Compact Fluorescent Bulbs for fairly cheap and get decent light. You can get higher wattage than 10w, up to whatever you need.

I'm almost at the point that I rip my hair out and throw away the tanks because I can't get $5.00 plants to grow because no one makes my lights. I even tried a 48"HE (2x28) Dual 6700K light setup hanging over both tanks and after 3 days the Wisteria leafs were all curling down, the top shoots that morphed were creating too much shadow over the lower leafs and all I was growing was brown algae on the bio sponge... it was ridiculous... I took back the unit and the Wisteria really likes the Nutrigrow lamp but it's only 15w (corrected from 18w previous post) and just not casting enough light with the top ones shadowing the tank. I need a 2 bulb or perhaps an overhang compact like yours that can hit the whole tank. In the mean time, the Red Ludwigia, that was firming up and LOVING the 6700K, has now gone back to mushiness since I removed the Dual T5HE 48" strip...I'm having to trim mushy stalks every 2 days. I'm really at a loss... time and money ... it's been two weeks on this 4 different lighting tries and no luck... right now I took my single Coralife 48" HO took out the color max and putting the one 6700K daylight on it at 54w but that's just temp till I can find the right setup... My next plan of attack is possibly a 24" Coralife FRESHWATER T5 HO dual strip with 2x24watt bulbs. One is a colormax that I will replace with a Zoo med Flora Sun Max 5500K... The 24" looks like it has adjustable feet that will fit the 20". That's my next stip if I can't find 20" FW bulbs.

I personally think that T5HO are too much light for shallower tanks like 10g or 20g Longs, unless they are suspended off the tanks a fair amount. That, and the more light you have, the greater your demand for CO2 and ferts. This might be what you were seeing in previous cases: deficiencies.
I had a heck of an issue with my Ludwigia Repens melting midstem when I first got them as the transitioned to submersed growth, which might be what you're seeing. Stick with 'em and hopefully they'll sort their business out.

I'll take a look at that personal compact, If there are easy to find 20" solutions please feel free to link a bunch if you have the time. Perhaps the CP fixtures are the path I'm looking for but then again can I find the FW bulbs for the CP ? There in lies the rub. If you have links to 20" Lighting fixtures and FW bulbs I would love to know more.
sorry for wall of text

PS... FW bulbs you mean Freshwater right ? But what is a CFL ? Compact florecent ? Can you put those in an incandecent hood ? I switched out from incandesent years ago... you mean I have to go back to it ? lol

FW is freshwater. CFL stands for Compact Flourescent, and by that I mean the white tubular bulbs that are either in spirals or giant U-shaped tubes. If you put them in incandescent hoods, they can throw some surprising light.

UPDATED: Seems like the 20" Coralife 40w compact has gone the way of the Dodo Bird. All I'm getting hits on are the 96w and 65w... The corresponding FW bulbs seem to have poofed to oblivion aswell leaving behind the dreaded 10K/Attinic dual gaurdians of doom... lol I needed the laugh.

Ah yes, there is that problem. I picked mine up on Craigslist, and I see them sold once in a while on forums or ebay. They are much more prevalent in the SW community (which would be a good place to look for one). Mine is a Coralife Satellite that's 40w, but 36w are more common in that size.

 

[aqua_chem]

As far as suggestions, there are many, depending on how much money you want to throw at this. The folks at Catalina Aquarium make very good fixtures, but tend to cost a little more. I like CA because they're solid, quality fixtures made in the US by a small business in California, and all my dealings with the place have been extremely pleasant and satisfying. There's also Aquatrades that has a 20" 36w and a 20" 4xT5HO (and hopefully you can run only two at a time), and while they are extremely wallet friendly, their fixtures are cheaply made and low quality (poor reflectors, ballast, etc), which leads to less light being put out. That being said, less light isn't always a bad thing, especially in a case like this where you're going to have T5HO over a 10g.

 

[Backwater]

OK, let's break this down into individual parts.



Then I'll say it. They're wrong. Spectrum matters very little once a number of essentials are met (and pretty much every bulb you see will meet these). Basically, any bulb between ~4000K and 12000K will work with largely insignificant difference. Hagen even makes a 18000K that, while a little bit blue, will work for FW.

This is assuming that they were talking about FW. SW is a little bit more finicky about some of this stuff.



20" Is an awkward size to find high output fixtures for. Fortunately you can get an Incandescent Hood and Compact Fluorescent Bulbs for fairly cheap and get decent light. You can get higher wattage than 10w, up to whatever you need.


I personally think that T5HO are too much light for shallower tanks like 10g or 20g Longs, unless they are suspended off the tanks a fair amount. That, and the more light you have, the greater your demand for CO2 and ferts. This might be what you were seeing in previous cases: deficiencies.
I had a heck of an issue with my Ludwigia Repens melting midstem when I first got them as the transitioned to submersed growth, which might be what you're seeing. Stick with 'em and hopefully they'll sort their business out.


FW is freshwater. CFL stands for Compact Flourescent, and by that I mean the white tubular bulbs that are either in spirals or giant U-shaped tubes. If you put them in incandescent hoods, they can throw some surprising light.



Ah yes, there is that problem. I picked mine up on Craigslist, and I see them sold once in a while on forums or ebay. They are much more prevalent in the SW community (which would be a good place to look for one). Mine is a Coralife Satellite that's 40w, but 36w are more common in that size.

As far as suggestions, there are many, depending on how much money you want to throw at this. The folks at Catalina Aquarium make very good fixtures, but tend to cost a little more. I like CA because they're solid, quality fixtures made in the US by a small business in California, and all my dealings with the place have been extremely pleasant and satisfying. There's also Aquatrades that has a 20" 36w and a 20" 4xT5HO (and hopefully you can run only two at a time), and while they are extremely wallet friendly, their fixtures are cheaply made and low quality (poor reflectors, ballast, etc), which leads to less light being put out. That being said, less light isn't always a bad thing, especially in a case like this where you're going to have T5HO over a 10g.

Thank you so much guys for the answers and espeically the break down answer by answer aqua_chem, I'm following what you're saying. I am glad I checked the site before a I tore like a bat out of hell to my other LFS to get the 6500K Nutrigrow because I'm going to look into to the compact flors. Also, you had red ludwigia with same issue, that's actually comforting to know I'm not the only one. So this is normal for them huh ? When you say melting mid stem and to hang with them..." what happened to stop it and did you cut them or just let them grow on their own melt away and fix themselves? Should I do anything other than find good lighting? I do love their look but man they're a bit of a pain. The cuttings are fine, no problem with cuttings but the small groups are murder on my nerves right now lol ...

On the compact fluorescents, can I just get anyones or is following a specific color like normal FW advised ?
I ask because I see normal 1700 lumen kind but I think Lumens are for humans and Kelvins for plants... am I correct ?
Also, can I get just a normal clip on desklap type fixture that handles incandescents and throw in a CFL bulb if the wattages and color matches ? I may throw a 26W CFL into a desk lap fixture that clips on and see what it does. The sprial kind seem like they would not fit into a hood.

Update: maybe it's just hopeless because I'm still not finding anything. Yeah I can find 6500K CFL bulbs all over at 23Watts and perfect but they are all sprial ... will those fit in a normal incandescent hood ? they look too big possibly for an incandescent hood and possibly a fire hazard if the plastic reflector melts.Sill can not find any 20" CFL fixtures though... if the sprials will fit in the incandescents I may have a winner though. Advice ?

 

[Backwater]

UPDATE: posting seperately...

EUREKA!!
Aqueon Incandescent Strip Lights at PETCO

Plus>
Sunlite 05231 CF 15W Mini Twist Day Light 6500K Bulb

I know the hood says 25Watt and the bulbs say 15Watt the hood should be able to handle 15w - 25w right ?

 

[aqua_chem]

Also, you had red ludwigia with same issue, that's actually comforting to know I'm not the only one. So this is normal for them huh ? When you say melting mid stem and to hang with them..." what happened to stop it and did you cut them or just let them grow on their own melt away and fix themselves? Should I do anything other than find good lighting?

It was worst when I first got them and they were still in emersed form. That rallied later but I would still periodically have isolated stem melting. L. Repens is not my favorite plant.

I ask because I see normal 1700 lumen kind but I think Lumens are for humans and Kelvins for plants... am I correct ?

Kelvin is a description of the color, lumen is a description of output with respect to what the human eye detects. PAR (Photosynthetically Active Radiation) is the plant equivalent of lumens.

Also, can I get just a normal clip on desklap type fixture that handles incandescents and throw in a CFL bulb if the wattages and color matches ? I may throw a 26W CFL into a desk lap fixture that clips on and see what it does. The sprial kind seem like they would not fit into a hood.

I've used these several times with great results. Gooseneck lamps would work fine as well.

Update: maybe it's just hopeless because I'm still not finding anything. Yeah I can find 6500K CFL bulbs all over at 23Watts and perfect but they are all sprial ... will those fit in a normal incandescent hood ? they look too big possibly for an incandescent hood and possibly a fire hazard if the plastic reflector melts.Sill can not find any 20" CFL fixtures though... if the sprials will fit in the incandescents I may have a winner though. Advice ?

The spirals can be hard to fit in sometimes, especially with some splashguards. Ideally, you want the ones with U-tubes, but you usually have to order them specially outside of 10w. Some lighting specialty websites will have higher wattage U-tubes.

I know the hood says 25Watt and the bulbs say 15Watt the hood should be able to handle 15w - 25w right ?

It should be able to handle up to 25w. Lesser wattage shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Backwater]

I've used these several times with great results. Gooseneck lamps would work fine as well.


The spirals can be hard to fit in sometimes, especially with some splashguards. Ideally, you want the ones with U-tubes, but you usually have to order them specially outside of 10w. Some lighting specialty websites will have higher wattage U-tubes.



It should be able to handle up to 25w. Lesser wattage shouldn't be an issue.

I bet these would work great unfortunately my tanks are on a shelf on a wall unit giving me only 4-6inches of headroom. If I could find smaller I'd jump on them

As far as the up to 25watts I'm thinking this hood > Aqueon® Incandescent Full Economy Aquarium Hood - Lighting & Hoods - Fish - PetSmart

plus Either Zoo Med Ultra Sun Daylight Compact Fluorescent Bulb at PETCO
Times 2 IF the 10watt is ok in the 15w-25w fixture

OR > Sunlite SUNLITE 05207 CF 15w Mini Twist Day Light 6500K bulb - Tools - Lighting - Light Bulbs

They say "mini" twist and look like they may squeeze in ..

Is it true that for CFL the 10W or 15W actually counts as higher Watts when compared to a normal light bulb? So would 2x10W ultra suns be enough for 1 10gal ? Would 2x15watts be too much ?

PS man if you get me through this I'm becoming a member!

 

[aqua_chem]

10w should be fine in that fixture.

10w are said to be "40w equivalent", but that's 40w of incandescent light. Fluorescent lights are much more efficient, which is why we use them. Some different types of fluorescent bulbs are more efficient than others (T12 vs T8 vs T5, etc), which leads to the whole "WPG" rule breaking down.

For our purposes, ignore the 'equivalent' wattage. You'll want at least two 10w bulbs, or more.

 

[Backwater]

10w should be fine in that fixture.

10w are said to be "40w equivalent", but that's 40w of incandescent light. Fluorescent lights are much more efficient, which is why we use them. Some different types of fluorescent bulbs are more efficient than others (T12 vs T8 vs T5, etc), which leads to the whole "WPG" rule breaking down.

For our purposes, ignore the 'equivalent' wattage. You'll want at least two 10w bulbs, or more.

Well, I'm prepared to head out right now and get that hood and 2x10W Ultra suns... do think that will be enough of should I order the 2x15W or try to find 2x25watts to squeeze in there ? the mini 15W may fit but the u shape may cover better. I'm prepared to start with the 2x10w and then order the 2x15w and put those in the second fixture when I get it.

Also, same 8-10 hour rule and you mentioned Co2/lighting ... should I start thinking about adding a small Co2 injection system like the fuval mini one or pack more fish ? The 10gal Wisteria only has 4 fish in it... it had 5 but one just died of dropsy (outside the tank in a sep bucket). The wisteria tank has only been up for 3-4 weeks. I'm gonna get some oto's for tonight too.
Sorry for more questions but iching to head out and by this shizz

 

[aqua_chem]

DIY CO2 would be immensely cheaper.

I would recommend going with 15w bulbs, especially if you're planning on doing CO2.

 

[Backwater]

Wasn't really planning on it but It may turn out that way for the kind of growth I want. I'm planning dwarf babies tear (or w/e they are called) for Wisteria tank and possibly cardnial plants and grass or moss for the R.Ludwigia tank. I'm in it for the long haul on these and want to mack them out Autoscape style. I did check into how to make a DIY Co2 setup months ago and I work in IT so tied to a PC all day thus, I have the time and patients for it just banging head against light wall.. Thank you so much for all your help. I needed a plunger to losen the clog lol. Yes I'm in IT that explains the incessant typing and bad spelling! lol


If I go the babies tear route should I certainly go DIY for sure ? Thinking that's probably a yes and probably 2x25watts. Could I put in the 2x15Wat and go a couple weeks without the DIY Co2 or should I do them together ?
Co2 injections (especially DYI) just sound so "messy" ...

Could I do ok with just 2x15W and pack that thing with 15+ fish ? ... they are breeding tanks (mollies w/ mollies + platys with platys) with breeding pairs for each kind on the molly side still adding to the platy tank. If I pack the tanks would the 2x15W be ok by themsleves without Co2 or should I stick with the 2x10watts ? Is there guidline or rule for light/Co2 or Fish-Co2/light? Does the light drive the Co2 needs for the tank or does the pressence of Co2 injections require more light ? ... I'm using Zeolite so I can pack that puppy. I once had over 75 2" Jewel young in that 20gal for a solid year and no deaths on Zeolite/carb mix Now I bet that was some Co2!

UPDATE: Well I order these bulbs > http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_...x00001a&ci_src=184425893&ci_sku=SPM5887099508
Le'ts hope they fit! After seeing this forum post by Fishman 13 > http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/10-gal-hood-and-lighting-155001.html I'm thinking they will. Let's hope so! If not I'll return them and get the 10Wat Ultra Suns. Let's hope my plants don't die by then lol

I'll follow up with ya in a couple days when the plants and hoods are on the tanks! Peace

 

[Backwater]

DIY CO2 would be immensely cheaper.

I would recommend going with 15w bulbs, especially if you're planning on doing CO2.

Update: Well I found some sylvania Micro-mini 13W CFL 6500K for only $6.26 for a 2 pack... I cancelled my other $30.00 bulb order and went with the 13 micro-mini's ... they are very small but carried at lowes.
Also, I'm not going to do the Aqueon full hood as the splash gaurds are a joke and plastic that may rub and melt so I found 2 Perfecto hoods at Walmart with a full metal reflector and glass top splash gaurd for $2.00 cheaper per hood.

Sound good ?
Will the 2Watt difference per bulb make a big impact ?
So you sure that 25watt incandecent hood won't be blown by the 13w CFL ? lol

 

[aqua_chem]

I'm sure. Mine was fine was less and more. Give it a go and see how it looks.

 

[Backwater]

Will do, found the hoods need to get them tomorrow. Lamps are in my hand. Here's a pic. I only hope they are not too small as the fixture has lamps screwed in in the middle and pointing out to each side. Hope won't create a huge light area in middle without much filtering to plants on sides. we'll see.
They look bigger and fatter in picture but they are the smallest/thinist I could find in 6500K.

I was more worried about ordering $30.00 worth of bulbs that didn't fit than 2w loss per bulb so I went with these. My fingers are short and stubby so these are really small.