selenoid (???)

[jdsunflower]

setup debugging...

first some background:
40b tank, cycled with lots of plants over several weeks. Lots of natural bogwood. Eheim canister with mostly mechanical filtration, and some minimal smaller filtration pads. (Had to buy a new one, old one was indeed broken.)

Current status: 2 Eclipse Natural Daylight strips (came with tank, wattage unclear to me I'm embarassed to say...). Plants flourishing, though! I love the Black Water stuff, and use it regularly as a tonic...

ammonia, nitrites, nitrates quite undetectable, 5 corys, 5 glowlights, 1 golden apple snail (that relishes the small pieces of calcium I put in)...and lots of small smails I see as part of the system (so don't mind much). Substrate is black Flourite. temp about 78F, plants are cabomba, Amazon swords, water lettuce, elodia (sp?) (c), hornwort...Amazons struggling for now probably because my water is still too soft and I will address this asap. pH is about 7.4, carbonate hardness 3, general hardness 4.

My water is naturally extremely soft with pH around 9.5 (!) which I try to adjust with a bare minimum of adjuster to 7 equivalent to perhaps 2 tsp per 40g tank, and the rest with white vinegar. Adjusting hardness should help I hope...

Finally picked up my co2 tank. 5 g refillable. Got a co2 kit, plus selenoid and timer...AND read everything I could find about how to set this all up... I am sooo not mechanically minded, and of course I am consequently still lost about the integration of the selenoid and timer to the set-up. There seems to be an assumption that this part is hardly worth mentioning, so I am a bit bemused...

Tried it last night, no apparent timing function to co2 happening...... (adjusted for 12 hrs injection).

The selenoid fitting to regulator, selenoid plug, and timer are what is confusing me.

Right now, I have the following order:
tank (pressure 900), tightly fitted regulator (low to 15), brief piece of tubing, selenoid (IN to regulator side and plugged into timer and outlet), tubing to needle valve, needle valve, tubing to bubble counter, bubble counter (about 1 bubble per 5 seconds), tubing to reactor (that is also plugged into wall).

What I'm finding: 1: reactor makes a racket. Is this normal? No change over 18 hours or so. Does it matter if I tilt it sideways as long as the cyclone action is protected? It makes less of a racket that way...
2: reactor works all the time as long as it's plugged into wall of course. If I turn off the injection at the needle valve or (once I correct issue) selenoid, do I just let it run uselessly (moving water around I guess), or should I turn it off nightly to give the fish a break from the noise? Is this actually where a timer would do more good?
3: Timer didn't change anything to the bubble action in bubble counter, is that what ought to change with timer? Timer didn't seem to do anything at all...

Not sure if this is selenoid problem (tubing vs direct connection to regulator?, timer not working, etc).

If at all possible I'd like to avoid getting a pH monitor hookup as well. A little late to try to limit costs, but my tank is small and I don't anticipate a huge co2 injection, so don't figure the pH will be affected much by the limited co2...)

All in all, though, I think it's coming along. The fish seem very happy and secure...My glowlights were initially stressed, and 2 had white smudges on their lips, but they seem to be healing naturally (tough catching them in the big tanks, I was only able to catch the healthy ones, so they are in the QT tank with plants as well, until I'm sure the others are over it...water parameters same.) The corys are a posse already!

JD

 

[kimo]

If at all possible I'd like to avoid getting a pH monitor hookup as well. A little late to try to limit costs, but my tank is small and I don't anticipate a huge co2 injection, so don't figure the pH will be affected much by the limited co2...)

Ask a few of the people over on the plantgeek forum. There is a huge section on CO2 injection.

It doesn't matter what size tank there is... you want approximately 30 ppm of CO2. It will equal a 1.0 drop in pH. (It's the ratio of CO2 - small tank, small amount. Large tank - large amount.) Measuring your pH tells you how much CO2 you have in the tank. An automatic pH monitor is a big help in controlling the CO2. A drop checker is too.

 

[Purrbox]

First I would recommend plugging the selanoid directly into the wall, and making sure that you have your regulator setup properly. Then once you've got it adjusted as needed, plug it into the timer so that the injection will just off and save your CO2.

I think you'll find this article very helpful for stepping through the process to get setup. It's what I used when I set mine up and the directions that came with my regulator were insufficient.

I noticed that you mentioned that your Nitrates are nearly indetectible, this is not a good thing in a planted aquarium especially when you're getting ready to add CO2. It means that your Nitrates are bottoming out, and this almost always results in an algae outbreak. The CO2 is going to push your plants to grow faster causing them to burn through what little nutrients are there that much faster. If you aren't already, you'll need to start dosing fertilizers (Micronutrients, Nitrate, Phosphate, and Potassium). If you are dosing these, then you'll need to up your dosing to keep up with the increased demand.

 

[jdsunflower]

thank you purrbox and kimo for your feedback,
I'll probably break down and buy the pH monitor, especially given my amateur status, and the very high pH in town here...

I had reviewed that attached article, actually, and it was indeed very helpful. Unfortunately, their own selenoid is built in, so hard to tell what my problem is...

From what I can tell my own regulator set up is working fine, except for the selenoid and timer....my first time, and it took me forever! (some scary stories made me tentative, I guess). I have however removed the timer altogether for now. I assume the selenoid won't be doing anything without it or a pH monitor? Could the problem be that my selenoid is not directly screwed to the regulator? There's a short bit of tubing there instead....would that make a bit difference?

re the nitrates, thanks for the heads' up, I've begun to address that. I did re-check it to make sure, it definitely falls under 5 ppm. What do others aim for? I've read below 40, but that seems high....

I've also dosed (1/2 dose) with iron enriched Plant Grow, mine was 0 iron. I wasn't sure but I thought I'd make the changes gradually to spare my fish who are used to super-soft...

Your suggestions always appreciated,
JD

 

[ingg]

You have not defined a problem with the regulator/solenoid itself, no idea how to help you or what you ar even asking about it.

The only issue I see listed is the reactor making a racket - and if it is inline, yes, they do make bubbling noises.

 

[jdsunflower]

my question is--
if the selenoid is installed where it should be in the sequence, and if it is on a (new) timer, why did the injection not turn off as set? Would the fact that it has a bit of tubing connecting it to the regulator (vs direct connection) explain this?
jd

 

[An t-iasg]

If I understand your question properly:

Purrbox makes a good suggestion - plug your solenoid directly into the wall socket. The CO2 will flow without being stopped by timers (or pH meters, if you had one). Now check and adjust your main regulator valve (not the main on/off knob on the CO2 cylinder - that should be turned fully on) and your needle valve. When you get the bubble count to where you'd like it, then unplug the solenoid from the wall. Set your timer the way you want it and plug the solenoid into the timer, and plug the timer into the wall.

I'm not sure what you mean by tubing connecting the solenoid to the regulator. The plug coming from your regulator is actually coming from the solenoid. The solenoid should already be attached to the regulator. Plugging the solenoid into a timer will control the regulator for you.

If you see any CO2 coming out after the solenoid shuts off, this may be nothing to worry about. It is normal for a small amount of CO2 that was already in the airline to continue to make its way into the tank. If the CO2 continues to come out after the solenoid is shut off, then your needle valve or diffuser may be bad. That happened to me - I had a bad needle valve that was causing pressure to back up behind it. The pressure would continue to escape after the solenoid shut off. I also was using a diffuser that was holding back too much CO2, so some of the CO2 that was held back was slowly released into the tank after I thought the solenoid was off. I replaced the needle valve and the diffuser and my system is working correctly now.

 

[jdsunflower]

thanks for the suggestions
I think where I was not clear enough is that the new co2 injection kit I bought did not have a solenoid. I bought the solenoid separately and as per articles etc, and attached it to the regulator by using a piece of co2 tubing and the special nuts that go over the tubing to prevent leakage, then attached the needle valve etc as the kit required. My confusion comes from the fact that there was no reduction whatsoever in the regular bubble rhythm over the next half hour after the timer should have shut it down. As an aside, when the timer or pH monitor turns off the co2, does the reactor continue making the same noise but without co2 working through it? Do I need another timer?

 

[An t-iasg]

Oh - You're building your own regulator with solenoid. Sorry, I didn't realize that. I just thought you had a different brand than I had. I'm not mechanically-minded either, so I can't help you with that. What you could do is try to ask at the place where you got your CO2 cylinder filled. I got my new needle valve from my manufacturer and took it to the CO2 filling place and they put it on for me. Maybe they can help pinpoint your trouble spots - why the timer is not shutting the solenoid off. Do you have another timer around the house? It might be worth testing the solenoid out with another timer.

My only noise I hear from the CO2 system is the loud click when the solenoid turns on or off. Sometimes my diffuser whistles a bit as the CO2 comes into it, but I have to be standing right beside the tank to hear that. Sometimes I can hear the solenoid click from all the way upstairs if the house is quiet.

 

[jdsunflower]

good ideas, A, thanks (who says you aren't mechanically minded?). For now I turn things off on my own at night. Any risk of bacterial death in my reactor if I turn it off at night, too? just giving the fish a break from the significant rattle (well, cyclonic air and water) sound. I might have to chuck this reactor, it's annoying and that's from the outside of the tank! I'm thinking an airstone might be worth the lost co2?
Thanks for your persistence in helping me get to the bottom of this.
JD

 

[ingg]

Let me make sure I'm understanding this.

I understand the setup.

Regulator.....solenoid......needlevalve,bubble counter........active diffusor.

With ..... being co2 lines.

So it isn't an inline reactor, it is a diffusor, correct?

Now....

Are you saying...

"When I unplug my solenoid, bubbles stop in the bubble counter instantly; but if I use a timer, they continue to come out after the timer shuts off."

That statement should be impossible, but just making sure. Whether you cut the power by pulling the cord, or by the timer flipping a switch, the exact same thing should happen. Either way, power is gone, solenoid clicks off.


Are you saying...

"When my solenoid shuts off, I still have some bubbles come through the bubble counter for a period of time."

This is normal. You have built up a ton of pressue in those little lines, and it will slowly equalize out. Similarly, though, you should not instantly have output when turning it on. Build pressure up at start, relieve pressure at stop.

An example of this: I have tanks run off a manifold. One CO2 tank, one regulator, multiple aquariums. One of those lines is almost 30' long. That aquarium will be getting CO2 almost an hour after the Solenoid has shut fof - it is the pressure in the line. For this manifold setup, CO2 comes on an hour before the lights, and shuts off an hour before the lights.

HOWEVER, if you have a short line from solenoid to bubble counter, bubbles in the counter should stop quickly, a few minutes tops. Long line... as my example above... takes longer.



Diffusor - SEPARATE ISSUE

Please don't mix the reactor into your questions, you are confusing me talking about two issues at once, hehe. I'm reading them as intertwined, I finally understand there are two separate things you are asking about.

Anyhoo, on to the diffusor!

What model type is this?

Please tell us if it is a reactor, or a diffusor. It may be only in my head, but I consider inline solutions (before the aquarium tank itself) reactors, and solutions inside the tank diffusors. Diffusors can be passive (like ceramic/glass diffusors) or active (like a powerhead chopping up bubbles). Product labels, of course, are going to make that statement probably look silly, it is just how I was taught.

When you use an active diffusor - or often, a reactor inline - you will hear bubbles. For active diffusors, it can be loud, as an impeller is typically chopping up bubbles, and this is noisy. One of my tanks has a really big inline reactor that behaves similarly - CO2 builds in the chamber, gets pummeled by the incoming water flow, and gurgles.

IMHO, there is no reason to run an internal diffusor's powerhead/pump with no CO2 going through it. It is not the end all be all of your biological filtration - it should be next to none of it, actually. Turn it off with the solenoid, same timer.

 

[An t-iasg]

Thanks, but you'll find people here who are much more mechanically inclined than me Manually turning your solenoid off at night is fine for now but you'll want to find out why your timer isn't working so you won't always have to remember to turn the solenoid off and on.

Like ingg says, what kind of reactor/diffuser do you have? When you say you wonder about the bacterial death in the reactor when you turn it off at night, do you have bioballs in a tube? You can go ahead and turn off the pump that supplies this reactor at night, since it doesn't disperse any CO2 when the timer goes off or when you turn the solenoid off, and there's no need to water to gurgle through at night. There shouldn't be much, if any, good bacteria in this reactor. All your good bacteria will be in the filter media, and to a lesser extent, the substrate and tank/plant surfaces. The CO2 reactor/diffuser you choose shouldn't have any impact on the biological bacteria colony.

I use a sintered glass airstone in one of my 10 gallon tanks and a limewood airstone in the other 10 gallon tank. I didn't have enough new limewood airstones one time and I just used the sintered glass one that I had. They both work well and they are just passively dispersing the CO2. In a 10 gallon tank this works well, but in a bigger tank you'll need a better method to disperse the CO2. You could still use an airstone if you'd like, but position it under a powerhead or pump so that the CO2 bubbles get pulled into the pump and are broken up further by the pump's impeller. This method works the same way as the bioballs in the tube - type reactor. I used to use a small water pump to enhance the spread of the CO2 in my 10 gallon tank but now it's a betta tank and the betta wouldn't appreciate the extra water movement. I have my airstone placed now so that the CO2 stream is caught in the flow of water leaving the filter. If you used this method - a water pump, powerhead, or running the CO2 line through your canister filter - to break up the CO2, you might hear some noise as the impeller chops up the bubbles. I don't know if it would be louder than the bioball tube - probably not. With my small pump, I didn't hear any noise that was unusually loud or distracting.

 

[jdsunflower]

thanks for those suggestions...

I am sheepish to report that the problem was indeed a defective timer, as was suggested. Yes, despite years of shopping at Canadian Tire I still hold fast to the delusional belief that new products will always work.

So the timer and solenoid are now working (despite my concerns about the small length of tubing I added from regulator to solenoid). I can see the value of multiple timers, tho (oh oh).

As for the actual dispersal mechanism, it is a Red Sea indwelling box they call a reactor, that chops up the bubbles. Glad to hear that I can turn it off at night too. Looks like I'm in business. I will consider later whether I want to skip this last piece of equipment and hook it up to my Eheim canister at some point. For now I'm just going to look at the tank for awhile.

I've already followed other suggestions for adjusting the micronutrients and hardness issues, and hopefully the plants will be able to make the most of the co2 now. Thank you to everyone for their ideas and tips.
JD

 

[ingg]

Holy cow, I've never heard of a defective timer either. Glad it is working now!

Those active Red Sea diffusors work well, but are indeed noisy, I know what you have now. Trade offs.... noisy, but works extremely well!

You could try just putting the output of the CO2 line right into the intake of a canister filter you know... use the can as a big ole inline reactor.

 

[An t-iasg]

I'm glad the problem was simple - timer-related and easy to fix - rather than fooling with the solenoid and its connections.

 

[jdsunflower]

I never know when to assume it's a problem with the part, or with the limits of my technical ability. I won't bore you with the story of how long I tried and how hard I worked to start a suction on an earlier and brand-new Eheim stored for 4 years......, convinced I just didn't have good lungs (lol). Once I tried a working pump, then I knew how easy it is supposed to be. Ah well, live and learn.

 

[jdsunflower]

Well, apparently it was the way I was using the timer... How utterly embarassing...
but on a happier note, it's all working well now.
thanks for your help,
JD