Substrate Questions

[Super_Blueberry]

So I just scored a free 100g tank, and if I can get the wife's ok to swap my 55g out for it, I want to do as much as I can correctly from the start. My 55g has plain gravel, and I'm adding root tabs everywhere. It's not ideal, but it's working. For the 100g though, I want to start with a 'dirt' substrate and cap it with sand. My question is which substrate(s) offer the longest period of fertilization before it would have to be replaced. Obviously I don't want to break it down in a year just to replace the substrate. What is the best option for the long term?

 

[Aquatic_Adam]

You should pm Rivercats if that is ok with her. She did a 220g dirt with Eco-Complete cap.

1.5 in soil 1.5 cap of Eco.

When I set up my 125g I'm going that route.

 

[Rivercats]

I have a dirt set up. I used 1-1/2 inches of organic soil (many like to use Miracle Grow Organic Soil) but I used a brand (sorry I don't have any to look at the name and can't remember the name) but it is sold in 2-3cu feet bags of Organic soil bought at Lowes. It will look more like a finer mulch than actual soil, so that is normal. I like Eco-complete for its look, for the fact is is rich in nutrients, and it comes packed in black water bacterial laden water which aids in quicker cycling. It is pricey but worth it IMO. Both the organic soil and the eco are loaded with nutrients and will last a long time. But you have to understand at some time all substrates run out of nutrients. Yes, fish poo, fish food, and other things that make up mulm will add to the substrate nutrient base but somewhere down the road you will need to use root tabs IF you have alot of plants that draw nutrients from the substrate. Swords are the biggest root drawers, Crypts do better with a rich substrate, most all carpet plants need a rich substrate. On the other hand stem plants mainly draw all nutrients from the water column. Water sprite, anubia, java fern, and mosses also draw from the water. So you will need to add nutrients to the water but in a dirted tank which has an excess of nutrients leeching nutrients into the water column in the beginnig, you won't need water ferts for a couple months. Plus alot of plant choices will actually be based on your light level, which is as or more important than substrate. If you have good lighting, good substrate, and some water column ferts you will grow good plants. Adding something like Flourish Excel will give alot better growth. As far as replacing substrate, I don't ever plan on changing substrate, unless I am tearing down the tank. Eventually I will need to add root tabs to some plants but not all. Look at what you want now and how you want it, don't plan already for having to tear it down to change substrate. It would be cheaper to add fert tabs down the road than replacing substrate especially in a large tank. You are only going to do it once.

 

[aqua_chem]

There are great substrates if you're willing to throw money at the issue. As it stands, MTS and PFS is a cheap and nutritious substrate choice.


Also,

I like Eco-complete for its look, for the fact is is rich in nutrients

EC Doesn't really have an nutrients in it beyond an insignificant smattering of micronutrients.

and it comes packed in black water bacterial laden water which aids in quicker cycling.

The bacteria in EC are unrelated to the nitrogen cycle.

 

[jetajockey]

Kitty litter or oildri is another cheap and effective alternative. I did my 120 with mineralized topsoil and oildri for under 10 bucks.

 

[Rivercats]

Yes the Eco-complete contains heterotropic bacteria which aids in breaking down organics. I have used it in two tanks within the year and cycling was faster than I have ever experienced. It's a personal choice of what you like.

Here is what Eco-Complete is short bio:

It's secret lies in rich basaltic volcanic soil which contains iron, calcium, magnesium, potassium, sulfur plus over 25 other elements to nourish your aquatic plants. Eco-Complete Planted Aquarium Substrate is mineralogically and biologically complete, giving you luxuriant aquatic plant growth. Iron rich Eco‑Complete eliminates the need for laterite. No artificial dyes, paints, or chemical coatings. Eco-Complete has highly porous spherical grains for optimum diffusion performance and contains live Heterotrophic bacteria to rapidly convert fish waste into natural food for your aquatic plants. It establishes a natural biological balance which makes cycling a new aquarium faster and safer.

Here is a great article to read: Substrate materials for the planted aquarium | Aquariums Life

It might give you alot of the answers you want. It gives all kinds of information on types of substrates organic and inorganic. Even one about soil base topped capped with another type substrate.

 

[aqua_chem]

Yes the Eco-complete contains heterotropic bacteria which aids in breaking down organics. I have used it in two tanks within the year and cycling was faster than I have ever experienced. It's a personal choice of what you like.

Heterotrophic bacteria. Nitrogen cycle bacteria are chemoautotrophic. Heterotrophic bacteria are what cause cloudy water, not ammonia detoxification.

It's secret lies in rich basaltic volcanic soil which contains iron, calcium, magnesium, potassium, sulfur plus over 25 other elements to nourish your aquatic plants. Eco-Complete Planted Aquarium Substrate is mineralogically and biologically complete, giving you luxuriant aquatic plant growth. Iron rich Eco‑Complete eliminates the need for laterite. No artificial dyes, paints, or chemical coatings. Eco-Complete has highly porous spherical grains for optimum diffusion performance and contains live Heterotrophic bacteria to rapidly convert fish waste into natural food for your aquatic plants. It establishes a natural biological balance which makes cycling a new aquarium faster and safer.

That all marketing though. Calcium and magnesium are already abundant in groundwater. Sulfur is needed so little that it's not even specifically dosed. The iron present in EC isn't as metabolically available (wrong oxidation state) as what you would dose in water or root tabs. What makes it a good plant substrate is the high CEC, which comes from it being a clay-based product.

Here is a great article to read: Substrate materials for the planted aquarium | Aquariums Life

It might give you alot of the answers you want. It gives all kinds of information on types of substrates organic and inorganic. Even one about soil base topped capped with another type substrate.

That's a very simplistic article targeted at beginners. Here's a better breakdown of substrates, made and designed for experienced aquarists.

Mineralized Top Soil-
Pros-Cost, Includes Key Plant Nutrients, Availability, Little Need For Additional Ferts
Cons-Time consuming to make, Must Be Topped, Ingredients Hard To Come By, Can Be Messy When Rescaping

Miracle Grow Organic-
Pros-Cost, Includes Key Plant Nutrients, Availability
Cons-Can Be Messy When Rescaping, Must be Topped, Temporary Gas Pockets

Eco Complete-
Pros-Appearance, High CEC, Rough Surface Easy For Mosses And Smaller Plants To Attach To
Cons-Lacking Key Plant Nutrients, Cost, Inconsistent size makes it hard to make hills and slopes that stay

 

[Super_Blueberry]

Looks like we're getting a good and informative discussion started here.

I do realize that whatever substrate I use will eventually run out of nutrients. I'm just wanting to make that time come later rather than sooner.

Also, I'm not opposed to spending some money to do it right, but being its a large tank, I don't want to spend a fortune either. I don't want to be super cheap and put a $1.29 bag of topsoil in, nor do I have the cash to go crazy and put flourite in.

As far as plants go, I'd probably stick with what I have and just move them over: swords, ludwigia, sprite, dwarf sag, crypts, echinodorus vesuvius, anubias...

 

[aqua_chem]

Crazy cash would be putting in Aquasoil or one of the other pelletized soil substrates. Leaps and bounds ahead of Flourite or EC, and all the benefits of MTS/dirt while being more user friendly.

 

[jetajockey]

Being 'super cheap' in this instance doesn't necessarily mean lower quality or less effective. Topsoil is one of the best nutrient rich planting mediums you can get, it's just not as user friendly as the shelf stuff.

 

[Fedex3d]

Ive been following ur discussion and had a few questions. I was wanting to go semi planted on a new 125 gallon that lve not yet started. I was mostly wanted to go with amazon sword, java fern and annibias. If l go with a black sand substrate and miracle gro, do I add water to the miracle grow and let it sit for a week then top it off with the substrate? Do l need to let it cycle with the plants longer than usual for the ammonia in the miracle gro ? Sorry for all the questions but I've never done a planted tank before and don't want a lot of deaths in the beginning.

 

[Super_Blueberry]

So my underlying question is still out there... Which substrates generally offer the longest lifespan for fertilizing? Or does it really not matter?

 

[Rivercats]

First to answer your question. IMO I don't feel any one substrate is going to out last another from a nutrient standpoint. If you have alot of heavy root feeder plants like Amazon Swords then your substrate is going to deplete faster. If you stay with plants that basically use the substrate as an anchor and draw nutrients from the water column then your substrate nutrient base will last longer. Eventually it will deplete. But on the other hand tank waste will help replenish the substrate. So plant choice will factor in.

Personally I stand behind the Organic Soil and Eco-Complete method because it has worked for me for well over a year on more than one tank. Yes marketing is out there to sell a product but for me (and me only) Eco-complete has done exactly what the marketing claimed. And articles are out there mostly for inexperienced aquarists to give them information on various subjects. They are there to give out basic info, nothing more nothing less. What you need to do is research on-line sucess and failures of what other aquarists have used. Actually usage by people says it all (IMO). The tanks I used my method in have cycled within a 2 week time period, exactly what the Eco marketing claimed it would aid in. I mean no amnonia, nitrite, or nitrate. I have never experienced such rapid cycling. And I do believe that heavy planting also had alot to do with the rapid cycling. I had to start dosing my water column shortly after 2 weeks so all the plants had macro/micro nutrients to use in the water column. Obviously in my instance even all the excess nutrients the soil was leeching was not enough. Root feeds like my swords, carpet plants, and crypts never experienced any melt and grew (and are growing) like weeds. I planted two swords that were both around 10 inches tall and within 2 weeks they hit the water line. I constantly have to remove outer leaves to keep them under control. This kind of growth was due to a nutrient rich substrate (again IMO). And I do use phosphate root tabs around the Swords as they use alot of that. I also use iron root tabs and/or laterite balls around roots of other plants that like extra iron in the substrate. With some substrates like florite you wouldn't need extra iron. So long and short of it... decide what type plants you want to grow then decide which substrate/s will work best for your set up.

One thing I didn't mention that aqua chem pointed out was with the soil you will have gas bubbles for about a month (I think that was how long it lasted). Each day I took some 24 inch long planting tweezers and poked the substrate to release the gas. Months down the road I will ocassionally see a few bubbles come up, which is still small amounts of gas releasing, but it is very little. Any organic substrate will produce gas as it breaksdown.

 

[Rivercats]

Fedex3d, if you decide to do soil with a cap, the way I did it was add the soil. Then slowly add water letting the soil absorb it (get waterlogged). Push the soil down after it is water logged to compact it to get airpockets out. Compact it good. Then cap with whichever inorganic substrate you choose. IMO you need to put a good layer, in my case 1-1/2 inches of Eco-complete, as a cap. If you have fish like loaches that like to dig and root around in the substrate the thicker cap layer will keep them from getting down to the soil and making a mess. Also with that thicker layer I was able to plant roots in the less messy Eco layer and then they could grow down to the soil layer. That way I didn't get messy dirt in the water column. I didn't let the soil and water sit, just added soil, added water, compacted, added Eco cap, filled tank. Did 100% water change for 7 days to remove tannins leeched by soil, I didn't use Miracle grow and my brand leeched alot of tannins. On day 8 I emptied water but only refilled it halfway. Then I planted very heavily. After planted I finished filling the tank. I also ran a Fluval FX5 with Purgen during this process to help absorb excess tannins. Once planted I left the filter run with Purgen and did small, maybe 10% WC's daily for a couple of weeks just to help with tannins. The tank cycled FAST! In two weeks I had no amnonia, nitrite, or nitrate. Put in my first first, BN Pleco to help with diatoms. Began adding a few small fish within a couple days after that. Did have to poke the substrate (going down to the dirt) with a long planting tweezer to release gas bubbles for about a month. That was all there was to it.

 

[jetajockey]

So my underlying question is still out there... Which substrates generally offer the longest lifespan for fertilizing? Or does it really not matter?

The soil based substrates by far outlast the shelf stuff. The biggest question is whether you'd be willing to fork out for the convenience of aquasoil or are willing to deal with the consequences that come with DIY.

 

[jetajockey]

The "instant cycle aspect of ecocomplete works on the same process that most bottled bacteria use. The heterotrophs used to process nitrogenous waste are very inefficient and not self sustaining. The reason they are used though is because they are not sensitive like the kind that occur naturally in aquaria, so they are shelf and storage friendly. Heavy tank planting is definitely a more likely scenario for a silent cycle, its one of my favorite methods by far.

 

[Rivercats]

jetajockey: The one thing I noticed with the 220g was when I tested the water on day 7 before I did the planting, the amnonia and nitrates were very low and nitrates were already beginning to raise. The cycling was mostly complete when I added the plants. In a couple days after the plants were added the cycle was complete but the plants had literally used all the available nitrates the cycling had produced. I watched for a couple of days and found my nitrates remained at zero which is when I started dosing PPS-Pro. I'm sure dosing helped the rapid diatom explosion. Regardless I feel like the soil, eco, plant combination caused the quickest and most efficient cycling I've ever experienced.

 

[aqua_chem]

I'm not sure what the copy/paste microbiology lesson was about (you should probably site that rather than just copying it), but my point still stands that heterotrophic bacteria not being involved in the nitrogen cycle. What you seem to be describing is a concept knows as a "Silent Cycle" wherein plants uptake ammonia as fast as it's produced, resulting in very little detectable ammonia.

 

[Fedex3d]

Thank you rivercats & all for the response! It has been a great help & l am gonna have a couple of loaches n the stock so l will put it a little thicker