The basics of plant keeping, when to trim, how much?

[7Enigma]

Hey all,

I've done a search but really can't find what I'm looking for. I have a recently planted tank and some of my anubais leaves are looking pretty bad. Of the 9 leaves about 3 of these (2 are the largest leaves, 1 is medium size) look bad. 1/2 the leaf looks fine, but the other half is definaltely either dead or dying. What are some general rules for trimming? Can I clip all 3 of these ones off without hurting the plant? If so, how far back should I cut them? Should I not cut them all in the same day to prevent too many "wounds"?

i.e. When to clip off a leaf (let it slowly die, or cut it as soon as it looks poor?), how far back to clip it (is it plant specific).

I have some wisteria that looked great a day ago, but now the ends are browning and curling up.

I do not have a test kit for plant stuff (though I know that nitrAte is NOT limited), have about 2wpg or so, and do a 25-50% PWC at least once a week. It's a 20gallon high as well. The wisteria is floating at the surface, and the anubias is floating near the bottom (I used a small rock to hold an arm (rhizome?) down so it wouldn't float away, but nothing is below the surface).

My java ferns are all in slightly poor shape (that's how they came from the LFS) with some dark spots, ragged edges, and holes. I don't think I can clip these leaves any without killing the plant since MOST if not all of these leaves are in this condition.

Sorry for all the naive questions.

Thanks.

justin

Oh and something completely off topic, I've never seen my Oto's so fat since I added the plants to the tank! They were always given shrimp pellets and aglae tabs and ate them, but these 2 fatty's are hilarious now. Definately slowed them down!


UPDATE:

A google search yielded this advice:

"Trim off the Defects. Anubias grows so slowly you hate to snip off any leaves. Do it anyway. Damaged leaves will not repair themselves. You want good-looking leaves not tattered or shredded leaves. Pruning also encourages new leaf growth."

So my question is I know I have to cut off all the bad leaves (3 or so), how far back do I cut? At the branch point? Where the stem and the leaf meet?

 

[Purrbox]

For Anubias I always trim the leaves off where the stem meets the rhizome. This seems to work well and they always start putting out new leaves.

For trimming in general, I believe a general rule of thumb is not to trim more than 50% of the plant at once. If you need to trim more than that, try to break your trimming up into more than one session with enough time in between to allow the plants to recover and put out more leaves.

 

[7Enigma]

Purrbox,

Exactly what I was looking for, thanks!

Any idea on the browning of the leaves of the wisteria? I can't give you any nutrient values, but all of the charts I read have not specifically said what could cause this. I know its not pH, nitrAte, or probably trace metals (I've done a lot of PWC's since starting the tank). The obvious answer would be CO2, but I don't know if that could cause the very quick browning and curling I'm seeing.


justin

 

[Purrbox]

Hmmm... from checking out Steve Hampton's Site, it looks like maybe a Potassium and/or Magnesium deficiency. The curling sounds more like Potassium while the browning sounds more like Magnesium.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Also, could it have anything to do with maybe being too close to the lights? If it's around 2w/g, and it's floating, then it's probably getting a whole lot more than 2w/g, as it's near the lights. Just a thought for others to comment on.

 

[7Enigma]

Lonewolfblue,


That's a possibility, but not too probable. I'll ask then how I go about getting the wisteria to sit on/near the bottom. It has a good root system, but I was concerned about burying the roots in my PFS (since there is no fertilizers in the substrate).

The reason I say the lighting issue is not probable is because I don't have powerful lights above the water (just my 17watt NO that came with the kit). The additional 20watts are coming from a CF light I have hanging off the left side of the tank, and shooting from outside the left wall of the tank to the right wall. I have a mylar balloon taped to the right side to reflect the light back into the tank, but I'm only seeing the browning and curling on the wisteria (the java ferns and anubais look fine).


I trimmed the anubais last night, cutting all 4 damaged leaves off at where they meet the thick portion of the plant. This morning the plant looks healthy so I'm glad it got the trimming.


Ok after posting a long reply, I did some in depth research of Steve's site to try to figure out dosing regimen without knowing values.

Here's what I've concluded based on that site:

Steve recommends 20-30ppm of potassium (K) for the tank, so I could see adding 20ppm of K with no ill effects (there appears to be no set ratio for K as there is for nitrAte and phophate). I'm still having a tough time deciding on how to dose this however, since I don't need more nitrAte in the water and dosing 20ppm of K will also dose 20ppm of nitrAte if I use the KNO3. KCl looks much more attractive, but I'm worried that the Prime either won't be able to bind all that chlorine, or that it will somehow bind up or chemically alter the K. Anyone know for a fact what affects Prime has on KCl?

Steve then says,

"Maintain phosphates at a minumum of 23 to 1 of NO3 to PO4. So if nitrates are 10 ppm then PO4 should be a minimum of 0.4 ppm. Going too far in either direction from this ratio can cause plants to slow down their growth and algae to begin to flourish, although having the ratio reaching 10 to 1 and higher is not problematic in almost every situation. Far more problems occur when PO4 is limited below the 23 to 1 ratio."

This makes me very hesitant to dose any sort of phosphate in my tank due to the last sentence I bolded. Without accurately knowing the values, I would rather have too litle phosphate than too much. If I try dosing with the other nutrients and still have problems then MAYBE I'll try a small dose of PO4.

Here's the quote from Steve that I still don't understand:

Calcium and Magnesium are usually in sufficient supply in tap water if your GH is above 3., though Magnesium or Calcium could be responsible for most or all of your GH. It's easy to test for calcium to determine the portion that calcium makes up of your GH. Calcium can be added via Calcium Carbonate, Calcium Sulfate, or Calcium Chloride. Magnesium is easy to add with Epsom Salts which is Magnesium Sulfate. Aim for a 4 to 1 ratio and a 5-10ppm minimum for Magnesium.

So is he saying to have 4 times the amount of calcium as magnesium, or the other way around? Halfway through the quote he switches up the order, so I'm stumped on this one. Since I don't know my GH, I could probably add 5ppm of Mg and be safe, but I don't want to stress the fish too much during a water change (I've read that hardness rarely affects fish when going from softer to harder, but can be very harmful from harder to softer, aka during a water change).

I will not be dosing iron, as I've read that most algae problems are related to overdosing of iron (and my plants don't have the symptoms of iron deficiency).

So bottom line is that CO2 definately is a limiting reagent in my tank, with the possiblility of K (but probably not Fe, Mg, and definately not NO3).


Can I use Prime to remove the chlorine when adding chemicals such as KCl and MgCl without removing/changing the nutrient I'm trying to get to the plants (the K and the Mg)?

Potassium Nitrate also seems like a viable option, though as of now I have no need in the tank for more nitrAte (my fish produce far in excess what the plants use currently, though I have not checked the nitrAte level in the last 2 days). One "benefit" with a planted tank in my area is that my tap water naturally has 5-10ppm of nitrAte in it. This was a bummer with a fish only tank, since the last thing I wanted was MORE nitrAte, but with a planted tank, seems like I won't have to dose nitrAte unless I get a TON more plants.

Basically, can I do more harm than good without being able to test for these elements? (I'm so mad now I didn't spring for the better test kit that included these tests, would have made this much easier)

 

[Purrbox]

The Cl in KCl and MgCl is Chloride (salt) not Chlorine, and should not be adversely affected by your use of Prime as a dechlorinator. You could also look into K2SO4 (Potassium Sulfate) as a source of Potassium. If you are using KNO3 to dose Nitrates, and are dosing at least 20ppm per week your tank is likely getting enough Potassium without supplemental dosing.

I read the first quote from Steve Hampton's site differently than you did. To me it's stating there are far more problems when PO4 is limited/low than when it is dosed at higher levels. I'd say that if you are noticing that the NO3 is not getting used, you might want to try dosing a small amount of PO4 to see if this makes a difference in the NO3 usage. Either way, getting ahold of a PO4 kit soon should be a priority.

Don't worry about planting the Wisteria in the pool filter sand, while not nutritionally rich in and of itself it will be accumualating nutrients from your fish waste. For a further boost you could get ahold of some plant tabs.

I'm not sure on the Calcium to Magnesium ratio, since I've got a fairly high GH I didn't spend too much time trying to figure it out. At a guess I would think that it's supposed to be 4 Calcium to 1 Magnesium, but I'm not sure.

 

[7Enigma]

I read the first quote from Steve Hampton's site differently than you did. To me it's stating there are far more problems when PO4 is limited/low than when it is dosed at higher levels. I'd say that if you are noticing that the NO3 is not getting used, you might want to try dosing a small amount of PO4 to see if this makes a difference in the NO3 usage. Either way, getting ahold of a PO4 kit soon should be a priority.

Your right. I reread it and it makes sense ( I was a bit tired at the time ).

Any recommendation on a PO4 kit? Big Al's seems to be pretty weak on test kits other than the master test kit.

I added about 2.5-5ppm of KCl, 5-10ppm sodium phosphate, and 2.5-5ppm CaCl. These are just rough estimates and might be slightly higher than I actually added. I did this until I can get some test kits so that I don't have zero of any nutrient (there's at least some of everything I need except for MAYBE Mg, I don't have any Mg chloride and won't until at least Monday).

I plan to start up my DIY CO2 tonight if the store has baker's yeast. I have a bottle and some tubing and just need to get the ingredients. Anyone have a good site for a DIY diffuser of some sort that does NOT require any other equipment. I thought of putting the outlet tube thats pumping the CO2 right under the aquaclear intake tube so that the CO2 will get sucked up the tube, spun in the impeller (hopefully mixing and dissolving in the water) and then into the tank. Does this sound like an okay idea? Or should I just have it bubbling near the bottom?

My biggest fear is how to regulate the possible syphon effect if something were to happen. I really REALLY don't want 20gallons of water on my floor! I don't have any way as of yet to put the bottle above the tank level, so if would just drain out all over the floor, OR at the very least fill the vessel up to overflowing and then as CO2 gets created dirty yeast water would get pumped into the tank (don't know how bad this would be for the fish/plants).

 

[Purrbox]

I would check ThatPetPlace.Com and DrsFosterSmith.Com as well. They are the two other locations that I order aquarium supplies from regularly.

Many people have had success feeding the CO2 through their filter as you described. You should be able to actually work the end of the tubing into the filter uptake, or if that doesn't work use a airline reducer which will be easier to fit in and feed smaller/easier to break up bubbles into the filter.

To prevent the syphon, spring the $1-$2 for a check valve. Well worth the peace of mind.

 

[7Enigma]

Thanks Purrbox,

I'm actually having the opposite effect right now in the tank, that is I'm trying to make my CO2 injection as INeffecient as possible. I don't have a hardness test, but my pH dropped from ~7.0 before starting CO2 yesterday afternoon, to about 6.2 at 3am when I woke up in the middle of the night to check. I was worried that the tank was going to drop even farther so at 3am I unhooked a secondary valve on my bottle (to allow the CO2 to escape into the room instead of the tank).

I got up this morning at about 7:30am and the pH was still about 6.2. I turned on the tank lights and hooked back up the CO2 to the tank, so I'll see if it will drop further WHILE the plants are absorbing the CO2). My big concern now is the affect the low pH will have on my bacteria. I'll be checking the ammonia and nitrIte for the next couple of days to see if I see a spike from the slower metabolism.

So I would like to increase the pH of the tank with something, until I can get some crushed coral to keep it at a higher level. I've heard that epsom salt works well but don't want to yo-yo the pH too much if its just going to drop back down quickly. Anyone know a safe amount that can be added to the tank that won't stress the fish but that should bring the pH back up slightly and buffer against he pH dropping again?

Oh and as for the syphon effect, I've negated that one as well. I dragged a small cabinet over to the tank, put a 1/2 full kitty litter container on top, and then put my CO2 bottle on top of that. It now sits about 2 inches above the top of the water level, so no need to worry about a syphon effect. It's not pretty, but the piece of mind of not coming home and seeing dead fish, probably 2 dead cats, and a water-logged office is worth it!

thanks

EDIT: UPDATE: 10:30am, ok I just got back from the store and added 1 teaspoon of baking soda to the tank (took 2 cups of tank water, dissolved the baking soda, and then slowly poured the mixture into the tank).

It's so funny, my fish would run around trying to get to the "food" since I always mix my dry food with water first and then pour it in. I was trying to get the mixture into the water the farthest AWAY from the fish but it was near impossible. I'll test the pH in about 30min once I know the baking soda has thoroughly mixed in.

 

[7Enigma]

Question on how to trim my wisteria (it seems to be growing really well, the root system is getting crazy, but I'm still not ready to plant it in the PFS so I have it weighted down with a weight that my other plant came with, though it looks to be lead). From a google search I got this:

Water wisteria is easy to trim, you just snap off the main stem half way down the plant and use the excess piece somewhere else in your aquarium or put the piece in a different aquarium. Just place the snapped off stem in your substrate and it will root, it's that simple.

Does this mean that the piece that I cut off with the roots still attached will just sprout another set of leaves? I understand the portion that is cut off will sprout new roots, but I'm unsure of what will happen to the part originally attached to the roots?

UPDATE: 7am Monday

Right now I have not suffered any plant deaths or noticeable algae growth. My 2 Oto's have GIGANTIC bellies ever since I added the new plants so they are definately going to to town on something in the tank (no eaten leaves so I assume it is due to the algae on the plants).

My CO2 level is still unknown due to waiting for my testing kits to arrive (should be by the end of the week). I've bumped up the KH about 1-2 degrees through the use of baking soda (previous post mentioned this). This was because my pH had dropped significantly and I don't see much residue when my tap water evaporates on the top of the tank (I always seem to spill a little bit on the top of the tank, and there is very little film), so I assumed it was very low.

I had been disconnecting the CO2 at night (from about 10pm until 6:30am) to prevent the pH from crashing too much, but last night I decided to chance it and see where it would be in the morning. When I went to bed the pH was at or slightly under 7.0 (AP liquid test kit). This morning it was between 6 and 6.4 (probably right at about 6.2). That's a little lower than I would have liked, but I'm not sure if I want to buffer more with the baking soda. I checked my ammonia, nitrIte, nitrAte last night as well with results of 0, 0, and ~20-30ppm respectively. I was shocked at how high the nitrAte was. I took my filter apart and sure enough a LOT of rotting detrius/ fish poop was at the bottom of the filter. Using tank water I cleaned the bottom of the filter, and the bottom-most filter sponge, and now the filter runs much smoother, and hopefully my nitrAtes will stay closer to the 10-20ppm I would prefer for the fish's sake. I did a 5gallon PWC (I have a 20) and added a little bit of baking soda to the new water so my KH wouldn't drop.

So I'm hoping that a combination of the slightly higher buffered pH along with plant growth, will begin to deplete the CO2 quicker so that I don't get as high of a pH swing.

justin

 

[PrettyFishies]

So cutting anubias nana at teh rhizome works for anubias nana - How do you prune other plants?

 

[7Enigma]

PrettyFishies,

I asked that in another thread as well and the answer is they all are different (mainly due to how they divide). Some you cut off the top (like grass), some you cut off the bottom, and some it doesn't matter where you cut. I would post a specific question as a new topic for the exact plants you have.

I'm actually interested in where to cut my wisteria. It is growing quite well and has a very established root system. I would imagine you would cut off the tops, but until I get the OK, its going to keep growing.

 

[Hoovercat]

Wisteria is a weed and will grow a new plant from as little as one leaf. Cutting the top (crown) from a stem will cause the lower part to send out multiple new branches.

 

[PrettyFishies]

I had a bad experience in another tank with wysteria where it grew those mats out of control and it spread all over other plants like a web... I didn't like that much.

Can someone reccomend a good (affordable) tool for pruning?

 

[Purrbox]

Fingernails work great on all but the most fiberous of plants and are free. I have to pull out the scissors when it comes to my Anubias, but most others could be done with fingernails. That being said I do prefer to use the scissors on everything, just because I feel like it gives me more control.

 

[PrettyFishies]

What's the best way to plant specimens with roots into the substrate? (w/o damaging them)