Unhealthy Plants - Please Help!

[The sea monkeys Rock]

Dear All,

I have a tank with no fish in, have just bought a selection of plants:

- Hemianthus callitichoides
- Rotala wallichil
- Rotala macrandra

They were added yesterday lunchtime and by the end of the day they were pearling much to my delight. Pearling as in oxygen bubbles visible and releasing from the leaves.

However 24 hours later and I see no pearling, and they look a bit sad. Slight browning on the edges of the leaves, particularly of the Hemianthus callitichoides and Rotala wallichil.

Here is my tank setup:

- 90 Litres (UK) / 23 gallon (US)
- CO2 injection
- x1 T5 24W JBL Ultra Colour
- x1 T5 24W JBL Nature Ultra
- Adding nutrients

Nutrients added daily:

Essential Macros and Micros Nutrient Mix

Nutrients contain:

Potassium Nitrate
Monopotassium Phosphate
Potassium Sulphate
Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate
Ascorbic Acid
Potassium Sorbate
Chelated Trace Elements

I add nutrients according to strict instructions on the label.

I use a drop checker to confirm Co2 isnt too much. It has gone a bit light, so I've turned Co2 off, as I think its overdosing a tiny bit.

PH: 7.3
GH: 15 (ouch I know!!)
KH: 6
Temp: 23.5C / 74.3F


Filter has no activated carbon, just biological and mechanical filtering. Circulation is good.

I had moss in this tank before (bought off ebay as a test) and it went WILD. I am new to planted aquariums. These plants cost me £50 and I was expecting them to look ace with the above setup.

Where am I going wrong? Help would be really appreciated

 

[George9]

Your water is super clear!! I can't even tell it was filled up!

Anyway, in my experience, it could be the plants in shock from being transplanted. If it continues to die, they might have been grown emersed and are shedding their old growth and will grow back.

Give it a little time and see what happens

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

Your water is super clear!! I can't even tell it was filled up!

Anyway, in my experience, it could be the plants in shock from being transplanted. If it continues to die, they might have been grown emersed and are shedding their old growth and will grow back.

Give it a little time and see what happens

Thanks, yes from my point of view the water conditions should be perfect! Ungrateful plants lol. Thanks for your tip, I will wait to see

 

[Maxw47]

It looks like the plants are still in their pots. The stuff in the pots is probably Rock wool or another inert substance. What is the substrate in the tank? I would recommend getting a good substrate in the tank and planting the plants.

 

[Dubs1281]

My plants look the same. If it is the same. You can just rub the brown stuff off. Its a kind of algae. But yours might be different.

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

It looks like the plants are still in their pots. The stuff in the pots is probably Rock wool or another inert substance. What is the substrate in the tank? I would recommend getting a good substrate in the tank and planting the plants.

I have florabase substrate:

Colombo Florabase substrate review | Features | Practical Fishkeeping

This is supposed to be very good. However I thought I would just make sure the plants flourish in the water first, I mean as the water has nutrients in it already (and Co2) shouldn't that be enough? I was concerned about planting them when that may make them worse?

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

My plants look the same. If it is the same. You can just rub the brown stuff off. Its a kind of algae. But yours might be different.

I have uses a pipette to squirt water onto the brown parts, I think if it were algae it would so some signs of separation. Hope its not £50 down the toilet

 

[MyanRan]

I think you should just get everything planted the way you want it to look, and then give them some time to adjust.

 

[Daxhua]

Your tank parameters and setup are good. You have a CO2 source, good lighting, nutrient rich substrate and water. I agree with everyone that should remove your plants from their pods, plant them, and just be patient my friend. Your plants will look hopeless at first but once they acclimate to their new home then your tank will be the awesome.
Just some friendly advice, until your plants start to show new growth don't add anymore nutrients to your tank the substrate has more than what they need for now. Most people only start adding liquid ferts as their plants need them. Too much nutrients can be bad for plants and great for an algae bloom.
I'd also like to suggest you watch Dustinsfishtanks on YouTube.

 

[Maxw47]

I'd plant them. The plants might just be melting a bit. Give them a week or so to get used to the tank.

 

[jetajockey]

Definitely on the waiting thing. Get them planted and see what happens, potted plants are grown above water so there is a transition period where they acclimate to submersed life.

 

[Rivercats]

If the tank is newly set up then the brown stuff, if it rubs off easily between your fingers, is diatoms. Diatoms are ugly but self limiting and will eventually go away on their own as the silicates in your water are used up. Limiting lighting to 6 hours daily will help keep amounts lower but if they bother you a lot you can easily add a couple nerite snails as they love diatoms and can't reproduce in freshwater.

The Rotala's Macrandra and Wallichii need to have each stem planted individually so the leaves on each planted stem almost touches the leaves of the stems around them. Since Wallichii is smaller you can plant 2 stems together. Also just so you know Macrandra and especially Wallichii prefer softer water and yours is running on the harder side. Here's a picture of both in my tank, the Macrandra is on the far right and the Wallichii is to the left of it... Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community - Rivercats's Album: 220g update 12/18/12 - Picture. Also non green plants also get better color in tanks with low nitrates and higher phosphates.

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

Thanks for all the replies

Your tank parameters and setup are good. You have a CO2 source, good lighting, nutrient rich substrate and water. I agree with everyone that should remove your plants from their pods, plant them, and just be patient my friend. Your plants will look hopeless at first but once they acclimate to their new home then your tank will be the awesome.
Just some friendly advice, until your plants start to show new growth don't add anymore nutrients to your tank the substrate has more than what they need for now. Most people only start adding liquid ferts as their plants need them. Too much nutrients can be bad for plants and great for an algae bloom.
I'd also like to suggest you watch Dustinsfishtanks on YouTube.

Thanks Daxhua, I will plant them today and see what happens. Thanks you also for advise about nutrients. I will stop dosing with nutrients. How will I know when to start dosing again?

I'd plant them. The plants might just be melting a bit. Give them a week or so to get used to the tank.

Thanks Maxw47

I think you should just get everything planted the way you want it to look, and then give them some time to adjust.

Thanks MyanRan, I'll do that and see what happens

Definitely on the waiting thing. Get them planted and see what happens, potted plants are grown above water so there is a transition period where they acclimate to submersed life.

Thanks Jetajockey, I didnt know that, would explain why they are looking a bit sorry, in addition to the above reasonings.

If the tank is newly set up then the brown stuff, if it rubs off easily between your fingers, is diatoms. Diatoms are ugly but self limiting and will eventually go away on their own as the silicates in your water are used up. Limiting lighting to 6 hours daily will help keep amounts lower but if they bother you a lot you can easily add a couple nerite snails as they love diatoms and can't reproduce in freshwater.

The Rotala's Macrandra and Wallichii need to have each stem planted individually so the leaves on each planted stem almost touches the leaves of the stems around them. Since Wallichii is smaller you can plant 2 stems together. Also just so you know Macrandra and especially Wallichii prefer softer water and yours is running on the harder side. Here's a picture of both in my tank, the Macrandra is on the far right and the Wallichii is to the left of it... Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community - Rivercats's Album: 220g update 12/18/12 - Picture. Also non green plants also get better color in tanks with low nitrates and higher phosphates.

Nice one Rivercats. I think you helped me before actually, and I had good results. I didnt know I needed to plant the two Rotala's in that way, awesome, I will do that today and post a picture.

Rivercats, any advise to get the GH down? I cant think of anything other than to invest in a RO unit. I read that Hemianthus callitrichoides like a GH of no more than 7 and mine is 13. Will this stop them growing? I have no fish in the tank at the moment, so I was planning on increasing Co2 injection to a higher level to help them settle in, would you agree? I will monitor PH to make sure it doesn't change too much, as I know that will shock the plants.

You say non green plants, arent all the ones I mentioned green plants? If I needed to lower nitrates and increase phosphates, presumably I'd have to lower nitrates with water changes (or RO), and increase phosphates by dosing? Nice picture btw, they look lovely.

Really appreciated everyones input, thank you. I am about to plant them as advised above, I will post a picture after, though I've only done this once before so probably best shelf any high exceptions

 

[Rivercats]

Actually the Wallichii and Macrandra are in the non green category since they are able to color up (pinks for these two). I suggest keeping nitrates at around 10ppm and try upping your phosphates to 2ppm. Higher phosphates give the plants much of what they need to make the chemical change in leaf color BUT remember if there isn't enough light they won't color up well anyway.

Don't stop dosing ferts! Your running CO2 with good light so your plants need even more so you don't have any nutrient deficiencies. You best fert dosing would be using dry ferts which I know you have some over there but have to find them online. That way your plants get all the macro and micro nutrients they need. And in the long run it's much cheaper to use them over liquid ferts.

The only safe way to lower Gh is by using an RO unit. I have one and love it. So if you got one and did 50% WC weekly using 50% RO and 50% tap water you'd be putting in water with a Gh of 6.5.

HC is pretty tolerant overall IMO. My suggestion would be to break up the pots into 1/2" clumps (minus the rock wool) and stick them in the substrate about every 3/4" in a checkerboard pattern. This will allow them to spread and carpet better. Something else, don't try planting the roots of these or it will drive you mad. Just stick a clump in the substrate just enough for it to stay put.

Since you have no livestock upping the CO2 if fine as long as you don't go too crazy as too much CO2 can kill plants too. If you want to up it a bubble or two from what your at now you should be fine.

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

Actually the Wallichii and Macrandra are in the non green category since they are able to color up (pinks for these two). I suggest keeping nitrates at around 10ppm and try upping your phosphates to 2ppm. Higher phosphates give the plants much of what they need to make the chemical change in leaf color BUT remember if there isn't enough light they won't color up well anyway.

Don't stop dosing ferts! Your running CO2 with good light so your plants need even more so you don't have any nutrient deficiencies. You best fert dosing would be using dry ferts which I know you have some over there but have to find them online. That way your plants get all the macro and micro nutrients they need. And in the long run it's much cheaper to use them over liquid ferts.

The only safe way to lower Gh is by using an RO unit. I have one and love it. So if you got one and did 50% WC weekly using 50% RO and 50% tap water you'd be putting in water with a Gh of 6.5.

HC is pretty tolerant overall IMO. My suggestion would be to break up the pots into 1/2" clumps (minus the rock wool) and stick them in the substrate about every 3/4" in a checkerboard pattern. This will allow them to spread and carpet better. Something else, don't try planting the roots of these or it will drive you mad. Just stick a clump in the substrate just enough for it to stay put.

Since you have no livestock upping the CO2 if fine as long as you don't go too crazy as too much CO2 can kill plants too. If you want to up it a bubble or two from what your at now you should be fine.

Hi Rivercats, I have just finished planting, took hours. I have a camera with a tripod so I made a quick animation. I will post the link at the bottom, let me know if you can see it I'll post a static image too.

Let me know what you think. I hadn't read your post until after planting. With the Wallichii I did actually plant the roots, it took so long. I planted two stems each. I hope they are not too close together. With the Macrandra, I planted alone, but I think I bought too many. I have planted them all, but they are quite close together. What do you think?

So you dont agree with Daxhua, you think I should dose with nutrients from the word go? OK.

I will buy a phosphates test kit, my tap water comes out at about 20-30ppm nitrate, so I will definitely need an RO unit in that case.

I bought liquid ferts you see, I'll use them up, then switch perhaps, thanks.

Here is the link to animation:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0BR33B26dM-WFZEREl6dHNOUkk/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks again

 

[Rivercats]

It looks much better and the plants will do much better. I don't think they are planted too close together at all.

Those are some really high nitrates from your tap! So yeah I think an RO unit will do you a lot of good. As for ferts if your running CO2 and have decent light the plants use more ferts as they grow much faster. If not enough of the proper ferts are available this can cause an imbalance in the tank which is then favorable to algae growth.

Just as an example, many people use El dosing for ferts. The basic principle behind it is to add enough excess ferts in the water so plants are never lacking any nutrient they need. I run phosphates up to 10ppm in one of my tanks which doesn't cause algae as the tank is balanced between lights/CO2/ferts. In a tank with lower light and no CO2 you can often get by without using ferts but your not in that category.

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

It looks much better and the plants will do much better. I don't think they are planted too close together at all.

Those are some really high nitrates from your tap! So yeah I think an RO unit will do you a lot of good. As for ferts if your running CO2 and have decent light the plants use more ferts as they grow much faster. If not enough of the proper ferts are available this can cause an imbalance in the tank which is then favorable to algae growth.

Just as an example, many people use El dosing for ferts. The basic principle behind it is to add enough excess ferts in the water so plants are never lacking any nutrient they need. I run phosphates up to 10ppm in one of my tanks which doesn't cause algae as the tank is balanced between lights/CO2/ferts. In a tank with lower light and no CO2 you can often get by without using ferts but your not in that category.

Hello again,

Oh good, I see the Rotala Macrandra's grow an awful lot in the correct light, co2 and nutrient conditions so I was concerned they may shadow each other. If you say its about right then I'm happy

If the tank is only lightly stocked (in the future) then surely the plants will eat up much of the remaining Nitrates and I wouldn't need an RO?

I have started dosing. I was very pleased yesterday as all the plants were pearling nicely.

I had a problem though, one of the T5 bulbs stopped working. It was a 9000k JBL. The LFS kindly replaced it as it was only two months old. However they recommended a 18,000k T5 instead. I could tell the guy hadnt got much knowledge and I dont think he knew much about the lighting topic.

Far as I know, its all about the nanometers of the light spectrum output. Plants needs the blue and red spectrum for photosynthesis. The color temperature is more about how it looks to the human eye right? People I think are incorrect when they say you need 6000k or something similar. This bulb appears to service a large part of the blue spectrum. Have I got my facts right? I have included two pics which show the color spectrum for both my T5 HO bulbs.

The first pciture is the JBL bulb, its called 'Solar Ultra Color' and the second pic which was taken with a camera is the new Fluval / Hagen 18,000k bulb. If you could let me know what you think that'd be great.

Many Thanks

 

[Rivercats]

The 18K bulb is very high blue light spectrum which actually plants can't utilize much. Algae however loves it. Anything over 10K isn't good for plants. You want a balanced color spectrum of both red and blue. Also you get washed out color in the reds/ non green plants when using 10K spectrum bulbs unless you balance it out with a pink rosette bulb. I actually use all 6000K bulbs which do appear dimmer to the human eye. So your right the higher the K spectrum the brighter it looks to the human eye. IMO Geisemann bulbs give off the best red and blue spectrum light and really make plant look great. I switched over to them in the T5HO's and love them.

Plants can only use so much nitrates. I personally don't dose nitrates as my tanks run right about 10ppm which is ideal for tanks with colored plants. Plus plants that color up do so better with low nitrates.

 

[Daxhua]

Hi Rivercats, I have just finished planting, took hours. I have a camera with a tripod so I made a quick animation. I will post the link at the bottom, let me know if you can see it I'll post a static image too.

Let me know what you think. I hadn't read your post until after planting. With the Wallichii I did actually plant the roots, it took so long. I planted two stems each. I hope they are not too close together. With the Macrandra, I planted alone, but I think I bought too many. I have planted them all, but they are quite close together. What do you think?

So you dont agree with Daxhua, you think I should dose with nutrients from the word go? OK.

I will buy a phosphates test kit, my tap water comes out at about 20-30ppm nitrate, so I will definitely need an RO unit in that case.

I bought liquid ferts you see, I'll use them up, then switch perhaps, thanks.

Here is the link to animation:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0BR33B26dM-WFZEREl6dHNOUkk/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks again

The reason I suggested to cut back on adding liquid ferts is b/c until your plants acclimate and start to grow there's nothing to make any beneficial use of them. Also as Rivercats stated dry ferts are less expensive, you might look into making your own liquid ferts it's cheaper and will last you longer. Yes with good lighting and CO2 injection your plants can grow really fast thus demanding more nutrients, but that's not happening just yet. Your substrate also has macro/micro nutrients so another reason not to dose ferts on a daily basis. Plants feed mainly through their roots anyways over time your plants will deplete the substrate of nutrients that's where most start to use root/iron tabs and liquid ferts.
If your plants do start to suffer from nutrient deficiencies you can always add ferts and trim your your plants to promote new growth.
I suggest you do some research in using RO units for your planted tank. They can be ideal for creating a good controlled environment for both fish and plants. RO units basically strip the water of all its mineral contents, some of which are very beneficial to both plants and fish. You add minerals and sometimes buffers to set your tanks parameters as desired. However if done incorrectly it can cause unstable parameters to your PH, GH, and KH especially with CO2 injection.
These are just my humble suggestions and that's what we are here for, to give personal experience and advice. You have a really nice setup for a planted tank beginner so I think your plants will do just fine. Have fun with your tank.

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

The 18K bulb is very high blue light spectrum which actually plants can't utilize much. Algae however loves it. Anything over 10K isn't good for plants. You want a balanced color spectrum of both red and blue. Also you get washed out color in the reds/ non green plants when using 10K spectrum bulbs unless you balance it out with a pink rosette bulb. I actually use all 6000K bulbs which do appear dimmer to the human eye. So your right the higher the K spectrum the brighter it looks to the human eye. IMO Geisemann bulbs give off the best red and blue spectrum light and really make plant look great. I switched over to them in the T5HO's and love them.

Plants can only use so much nitrates. I personally don't dose nitrates as my tanks run right about 10ppm which is ideal for tanks with colored plants. Plus plants that color up do so better with low nitrates.

Hi Rivercats,

I have been reading about lighting. The most comprehensive article I have found so far is this one:

Lighting Spectrum and Photosythesis - Lighting - Aquatic Plant Central

This guys seems to really know his salt. The suggestion is that colour temperature cant define what is good or not good for plants as a means of measurement in itself. From my reading it appears to be about the blue and the red light as you said yourself. If a bulb had strong red and blue light within certain nanometre ranges: (excerpt from above link)

Chlorophyll-a: 430nm/662nm
Chlorophyll-b: 453nm/642nm
Carotenoids: 449nm/475nm

then the plants will flourish. From looking at the graph I attached above (from the 18,000 bulb) it does indeed cover these ranges nicely does it not? I agree it probably does attract algae. I am looking to replace it, but before I do I want to properly understand everything about lighting (within reason!)

I am looking to invest in an RO unit, just researching it all now, and getting permission from my landlord to install a washing machine tap into the main supply