Very little plant growth, can't figure out why :(

[aqua_chem]

Technically we do not know for sure which nutrients cause which symptoms as the plant charts we use for troubleshooting are based on terrestrial plants that are not carbon limited.

Two things here. One, many of the infographics available are derived from aquatic plants specifically, and there are a lot of examples of specific deficiencies available out there. But more importantly, isolated deficiencies are fairly rare. It's hard for someone to definitively say 'that's 100% an iron deficiency' because if they're short on one micronutrient, they're probably very low on other micronutrients and potassium (and likely carbon as well). That's why I think's it's better (and easier) to say 'you have deficiencies, even though I think it's probably xxxx you should shore up all your nutrients just in case'. There's also the problem where if you're carbon limited and you add a bunch of carbon, you're suddenly going to be limited by something else real quickly, and you might end up worse off.

In the words of Mr Barr 'assuming that all of our plants and their issues are the same is not a good assumption. Co2 should be addressed well before nutrients'

Well, yea, but that's coming from EI's biggest advocate. There's also nothing saying you need to address one thing at a time.

However, even if we were to use these charts as accepted consensus there have been no reports of yellowing leaves that would signify nitrogen or iron deficiency. There is no report of green spot algae on leaves that would suggest phosphate deficiency. There is no report of holes in leaves that would indicate potassium deficiency, there is no report of dark veins which may indicate magnesium deficiency etc etc. In fact the only real reports are structural deformities, small leaves and stunted to no growth which does (according to these charts) indicate a co2 deficiency.

With the exception of GSA, I can see all of those actually. There is quite a bit of yellowing throughout, even accounting for washout from the camera.

 

[Delapool]

For the OP, do you have a nitrate, ph and/or phosphate solution/vial test kit? Readings from these would help.

I'd also check tank ammonia when you put the roof tabs in as I've had trouble there before.

Also I'd go with the co2 injection kit. Once set up they are mostly hassle free and tbh that's what I would get just about straight away. However I can never resist the lure of high light either

I don't know what your ferts levels are now for potassium but would go to dry ferts dosing at EI levels once you get the lighting and co2 sorted out (the other option being reduce lighting).

My experience with the liquid ferts is that they way under dose for high light levels. Nitrate and phosphate may not be too bad as also coming from fish / fish food but I do find lack of potassium can be a problem very quickly.

 

[Delapool]

Found a ferts dosing link. Apparently outdated - I'll have to check that tonight.

http://yanc.rotalabutterfly.com

 

[Shadey]

My CO2 kit came today! it also came with a little bottle of nutrafin plant gro which says "iron enriched" on it. There isn't much information on its packaging, but Amazon says that it is: "enriched with a potent blend of b vitamins and biotin, it ensures efficient plant metabolism and strengthens resistance. Dosage: 5-ml per 38-litre weekly. Derived from sodium ferric ethylenediamine tetraacetate, manganese sulfate, zinc sulfate, boric acid, copper sulfate, and sodium molybdate. "

Delapool- I've seen that calculator before, but I'm not sure how to use it, bc I wasnt sure of the different meanings on the "and I am calculating for" section. I will look at it again.

I figured out a way to raise my light up another 2 inches, which will put me at 72ish par @substrate, according to the chart, which is still high.

Also um. I know that the number one cardinal sin is not having a test kit, but... I don't have a test kit. <___<;; sorry. everyone is posting really helpful information, and making an effort on my part, so I feel bad for not having one. !

is this the best one? API Freshwater Master Test Kit

homework for me?
raise light more
get CO2 going
test
start dosing a bit
right?

thanks again to everyone.

 

[Caliban07]

My CO2 kit came today! it also came with a little bottle of nutrafin plant gro which says "iron enriched" on it. There isn't much information on its packaging, but Amazon says that it is: "enriched with a potent blend of b vitamins and biotin, it ensures efficient plant metabolism and strengthens resistance. Dosage: 5-ml per 38-litre weekly. Derived from sodium ferric ethylenediamine tetraacetate, manganese sulfate, zinc sulfate, boric acid, copper sulfate, and sodium molybdate. "

Delapool- I've seen that calculator before, but I'm not sure how to use it, bc I wasnt sure of the different meanings on the "and I am calculating for" section. I will look at it again.

I figured out a way to raise my light up another 2 inches, which will put me at 72ish par @substrate, according to the chart, which is still high.

Also um. I know that the number one cardinal sin is not having a test kit, but... I don't have a test kit. <___<;; sorry. everyone is posting really helpful information, and making an effort on my part, so I feel bad for not having one. !

is this the best one? API Freshwater Master Test Kit

homework for me?
raise light more
get CO2 going
test
start dosing a bit
right?

thanks again to everyone.

Sounds good but just keep supplementing with excel until you master the co2 levels or you may end up with some algae. Be very careful with co2. It you have a bubble counter always start on a low bubble rate and work up. Do not set your co2 and go out for the day. Set it up on a day that you are in and can observe your fish. Switch co2 off at night. You may not have the means to do this with your setup. I'm unsure.


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[fishenthusiast]

My CO2 kit came today! it also came with a little bottle of nutrafin plant gro which says "iron enriched" on it. There isn't much information on its packaging, but Amazon says that it is: "enriched with a potent blend of b vitamins and biotin, it ensures efficient plant metabolism and strengthens resistance. Dosage: 5-ml per 38-litre weekly. Derived from sodium ferric ethylenediamine tetraacetate, manganese sulfate, zinc sulfate, boric acid, copper sulfate, and sodium molybdate. "

Delapool- I've seen that calculator before, but I'm not sure how to use it, bc I wasnt sure of the different meanings on the "and I am calculating for" section. I will look at it again.

I figured out a way to raise my light up another 2 inches, which will put me at 72ish par @substrate, according to the chart, which is still high.

Also um. I know that the number one cardinal sin is not having a test kit, but... I don't have a test kit. <___<;; sorry. everyone is posting really helpful information, and making an effort on my part, so I feel bad for not having one. !

is this the best one? API Freshwater Master Test Kit

homework for me?
raise light more
get CO2 going
test
start dosing a bit
right?

thanks again to everyone.

That test kit is good. Try to find a phosphate test kit as well. I believe you have both nutrient deficiencies and a lack of CO2. With that PAR, your stem plants are basically starving. With high light, stem plants need a large amount of nutrients and adequate CO2 to comply with the rate of photosynthesis from the provided lighting. Increase micronutrient and macronutrient dosing until you get around 10 ppm nitrate and 5 ppm phosphate. Those are good numbers to aim for, but they don't need to be exact. I disagree with Tom Barr in that CO2 needs to be addressed first. In my opinion and experience, CO2 AND nutrients should be matched with lighting--no certain factor should be addressed first; all factors should be addressed together. If you want an easier and less demanding tank, raise that light to where you'll be in the medium to low light range. That, of course, might change your plant stocking, but will be easier on you. If you want to stay with the high tech approach, up nutrients and CO2. Another important aspect to consider is water changes. To ensure a healthy tank for the plants, change at least 30% of the water weekly. Also, make sure your tank's water turnover rate is around 10x. That will ensure proper CO2 and nutrient distribution.


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[Caliban07]

That test kit is good. Try to find a phosphate test kit as well. I believe you have both nutrient deficiencies and a lack of CO2. With that PAR, your stem plants are basically starving. With high light, stem plants need a large amount of nutrients and adequate CO2 to comply with the rate of photosynthesis from the provided lighting. Increase micronutrient and macronutrient dosing until you get around 10 ppm nitrate and 5 ppm phosphate. Those are good numbers to aim for, but they don't need to be exact. I disagree with Tom Barr in that CO2 needs to be addressed first. In my opinion and experience, CO2 AND nutrients should be matched with lighting--no certain factor should be addressed first; all factors should be addressed together. If you want an easier and less demanding tank, raise that light to where you'll be in the medium to low light range. That, of course, might change your plant stocking, but will be easier on you. If you want to stay with the high tech approach, up nutrients and CO2. Another important aspect to consider is water changes. To ensure a healthy tank for the plants, change at least 30% of the water weekly. Also, make sure your tank's water turnover rate is around 10x. That will ensure proper CO2 and nutrient distribution.


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I agree. I do think that all parameters should be addressed. And I don't think Tom would disagree either. What I believe Tom Barr was getting at is that we already expect co2 to be non limiting when adding nutrients. Such as is EI and all. EI is arbitrary though and can be tweaked to suit our system. It's based on unlimited light and co2 so when we address those parameters we can then figure out if we are wasting money by pouring nutrients down the sink each week or not. Co2 may need to be increased as plant mass increases etc. As will nutrients.

These plants are clearly co2 limited and as you quite rightly state are starving and so by addressing this we can then focus on nutrients. My only concern is that co2 gets overlooked time and time again and this is just another classic example. Even with the dosing regimen given, with non limiting co2 we should see some positive growth then we can observe this growth for other nutrient issues. No point in pouring nutrients in to a co2 limited system in my opinion.

If we address all parameters and have good growth then one day we see deficiencies what does this tell us if we don't know what we are looking for. Better to take one step at a time in my opinion covering all bases as we go. This way we can learn from our observations.

I think collectively the OP has some good information here and should be ok for future troubleshooting. So I'll leave it here.

Great points on flow and water changes two other equally as important parameters ?


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[aqua_chem]

I don't know if it's been explicitly said, but when we're talking about fertilizers in the context of a high light tank, were talking about dry ferts. I think that would also be a good thing for you to start taking a real serious look at.


Estimative Index | Aquarium Fertilizer | Green Leaf Aquariums

This is where I get mine.

Planted Tank Fertilizer: ​Estimative Index (EI) Fertilization Method - Green Leaf Aquariums

They have a nice little info page about estimative index too that's worth the read.

 

[Caliban07]

I don't know if it's been explicitly said, but when we're talking about fertilizers in the context of a high light tank, were talking about dry ferts. I think that would also be a good thing for you to start taking a real serious look at.


Estimative Index | Aquarium Fertilizer | Green Leaf Aquariums

This is where I get mine.

Planted Tank Fertilizer: ​Estimative Index (EI) Fertilization Method - Green Leaf Aquariums

They have a nice little info page about estimative index too that's worth the read.

Good call. Sometimes we get carried away with assumptions the OP's always know what we are talking about ?


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[Shadey]

more info! Thanks!

I got my CO2 set up yesterday, but I don't think it's quite working yet. I can see a bubble slowly building up / getting bigger where the tube meets the diffuser, so I'm going to give it a little more time to see if it just needs to work up to it, and if it looks like it's not working, I'll hook up the ladder that came with it instead.

I'll have to do some reading on the dry fertilizers, because I don't know much about it, and it looks like I'll have to make tiny smidgen doses in my small tank. it kind of sucks that the liquid ones I bought aren't good enough, though. how long do you think I should give my current setup a chance (CO2 and liquid fertilizers) to see results?

ty all experts for help.

 

[Fresh2o]

I ran DIY CO2 (yeast based) for about a year. I did not use a diffuser due to the back pressure. I simply let the bubbles go into the intake of the filter.
About your current setup, it might take a few weeks to see positive results. Decreasing the light duration may help offset any algae "adventures".
GLA also offers a PPS-Pro fertilizer kit. Similar in concept to the EI method but I believe the doses are less concentrated. I bought a kit in December 2013 and I still have plenty of it remaining (daily doses for my 20g tank). I do 25-30% weekly water changes as opposed to the 50% WCs for EI. The nice thing is you only measure out the dry salts WHEN MIXING up the solutions. The dosing bottles hold about 500 mL. 500 mL dosed at 0.5 mL per day will last a very long time (2.5+ years).


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[PerfectDepth]

I have a set of tiny measuring spoons for the dry ferts. In the 5 gallon low light betta tank I just scoop and drop right into the HOB filter. Simple.

I don't recommend doing that with the dry micro mix, just the macros. The mix probably ends up uneven in such tiny amounts, so it's better to make a large batch of liquid micros for small tanks.


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[Shadey]

so, the glass diffuser wasn't working, and actually it looks like the bubble ladder is just too big to fit in the tank, so I hooked up an air stone (because I read that some other people did that and it worked okay). it's putting out a bloop of bubbles every five seconds or so, but it's been a few hours and my drop checkers isn't changing color so I don't think it's doing anything, because the bubbles are going up too fast.

any suggestions?

Fresh, my filter is a built-in compartment with sponge / ceramics on the side of the tank, could I just stick the tube down there, is that basically what you did?

 

[Caliban07]

so, the glass diffuser wasn't working, and actually it looks like the bubble ladder is just too big to fit in the tank, so I hooked up an air stone (because I read that some other people did that and it worked okay). it's putting out a bloop of bubbles every five seconds or so, but it's been a few hours and my drop checkers isn't changing color so I don't think it's doing anything, because the bubbles are going up too fast.

any suggestions?

Fresh, my filter is a built-in compartment with sponge / ceramics on the side of the tank, could I just stick the tube down there, is that basically what you did?

Someone will correct me if I am wrong but I believe all diffusers have a working pressure. What is the pressure out of the regulator?


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[Shadey]

The kit is a basically a slightly nicer version of a diy bottle set up, so I don't know. :/ I dont have a regulator for it.
The diffuser I bought is this one.



edit: five hours after switching to the air stone, it looks like I've gone to blue-green.

 

[Fresh2o]

Someone will correct me if I am wrong but I believe all diffusers have a working pressure. What is the pressure out of the regulator?


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You are correct, however, this CO2 system is yeast based.
An air stone would break up the bubbles and be more effective than large bubbles but still not as effective as CO2 diffuser (very fine bubbles).
I directed the large bubbles into the HOB filter intake. The impeller would churn the bubbles into many smaller bubbles. The design of the AquaClear filter (since it does not use vertically placed cartridges) allowed the bubbles to be trapped in the sponge and floss, thus increasing contact time. I saw very few, if any, bubbles exit the HOB filter return.


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[Caliban07]

You are correct, however, this CO2 system is yeast based.
An air stone would break up the bubbles and be more effective than large bubbles but still not as effective as CO2 diffuser (very fine bubbles).
I directed the large bubbles into the HOB filter intake. The impeller would churn the bubbles into many smaller bubbles. The design of the AquaClear filter (since it does not use vertically placed cartridges) allowed the bubbles to be trapped in the sponge and floss, thus increasing contact time. I saw very few, if any, bubbles exit the HOB filter return.


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Ah I didn't click on the link for the kit. Defo replace the diffuser.

I don't know if you are aware but drop checkers are slow to respond.

Is this running 24/7 then?


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[Shadey]

it is, but i have an airstone running overnight. today's the first time ive seen any change in the drop checker, though.

 

[Caliban07]

How long before lights on do you turn off the airstone?


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[Shadey]

yesterday and the day before I was trying to use the glass diffuser... this morning I swapped it out for my other air stone. so today's also the first day that CO2 has been successfully coming out.

I turn the air stone off when I get up, and the lights come on a bit later so the current plan is:

7:00ish - air stone off
8:00 - lights on
4:00 - lights off
sometime in the evening - air stone back on?

it's 3:30 now and the drop checker has turned a mostly green blue-green.
maybe I don't want to worry about making it more efficient?