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Old 07-06-2010, 04:22 PM   #31
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And you are wrong about how long a fish can go without eating call the Shed Aquarium in Chicago. Maybe not all types of fish but many can go up to 6 months with no food and survive.
Not trying to be argumentative but I can pretty well guarantee you that no fish we can put in our home aquarium will last 6 months without feeding no matter who says it. They would lose credibility by saying that.
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Old 07-06-2010, 04:33 PM   #32
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Not trying to be argumentative but I can pretty well guarantee you that no fish we can put in our home aquarium will last 6 months without feeding no matter who says it. They would lose credibility by saying that.
Maybe like a huge shark...I know they have like a "power saver" mode that lets them survive for a long time. 6 months is pretty extreme.

But I agree completely, no ornamental fish we would have could possibly come close to that. I also agree with Kurt. I would be willing to bet the same guy who told you to use the large quantities of meds in your DT is the same one who sold it to you, and you can't blame him for that. You get good, unbiased info here, if you insist on refuting all of it, I would expect to see your posts start to become unanswered by a lot of people around here.
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Old 07-06-2010, 04:58 PM   #33
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Maybe like a huge shark...I know they have like a "power saver" mode that lets them survive for a long time. 6 months is pretty extreme.

But I agree completely, no ornamental fish we would have could possibly come close to that. I also agree with Kurt. I would be willing to bet the same guy who told you to use the large quantities of meds in your DT is the same one who sold it to you, and you can't blame him for that. You get good, unbiased info here, if you insist on refuting all of it, I would expect to see your posts start to become unanswered by a lot of people around here.
You would lose that bet I live in PA now he is in WI I used to live in WI all my fish I currently have came from lfs in PA and he told me to be aggressive if I suspect ich and that it is better to be to strong vs to weak that many fish especially mine can handle a higher doseage of copper. ANd yes you are right I do have alot to learn that is why I am here to read and respond I am disputing I am just passing along the information I get. That is one reason why I posted his name his business and website which includes his phone number. I think some of you could learn something from him and vice versa. I thought the point of this was to educate each other by first hand experiences and the advice from people who definately know better than at least me. I am not claiming the information givin to me is 100% accurate just passing on what was told to me. And yes the Shed did tell me in person mind you when I was there on a private tour by there head biologist that many of the same fish we have in our tanks can survive for months without food. Now this is a man with a degree in this field. Who do I believe a faceless name on here or him? Again just because I present other opinions and facts into this forum and the regs on here dont like it should I be ignored, really??? Think about it. If you reread all of my posts no where will you find that any of my statements are condescending or rude. Bummer I thought I found a good site for learning and debate.
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Old 07-06-2010, 05:20 PM   #34
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You would lose that bet I live in PA now he is in WI I used to live in WI all my fish I currently have came from lfs in PA and he told me to be aggressive if I suspect ich and that it is better to be to strong vs to weak that many fish especially mine can handle a higher doseage of copper.
Ill eat my words then. I was wrong. Again, as I have stated, there are different beliefs and methods in all aspects of the hobby.
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ANd yes you are right I do have alot to learn that is why I am here to read and respond I am disputing I am just passing along the information I get...I am not claiming the information givin to me is 100% accurate just passing on what was told to me.
The only reason people on here have posted how they have, is because you barely acknowledge what we have said, and just keep stating what your friend has said, or your LFS owner has said. This is an open forum for debate, but instead you might want to consider prefacing your statement with "I always thought, I was told, What do you guys think?" If you are looking for our input or "debate" into any certain field. The way it comes off now, is like so many other people who keep saying the same things over and over trying to get someone to agree with them, so they can keep doing what they are doing and feel better.
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Who do I believe a faceless name on here or him? Again just because I present other opinions and facts into this forum and the regs on here dont like it should I be ignored, really??? Think about it. If you reread all of my posts no where will you find that any of my statements are condescending or rude. Bummer I thought I found a good site for learning and debate.
Frankly, look at it from our point of view, we all know each other here, and vouch for each others advice. you are supplying us loads of information from someone we don't know. We feel the same as you do, just random information coming from a supposed source. The fact of the matter is, if you aren't considering and thinking about what people post here, then they aren't going to take their time to continually help you. Not that we avoid you or ignore you because you bring up argumentative topics or something.

I don't feel anyone here has been condescending or rude either, there are some people who will give it to you a lot straighter then others, but that is what you get in a forum. Personally, having subscriptions to 6+ forums, I keep coming back here because it is the most laid back, and friendly. We are all more then happy to answer your questions and I think everyone here will still admit they have things to learn. But just consider how you may come off as well, if you really want to open a "debate" consider providing articles or some solid proof in order for us to correctly assess it and give you our personal feedback. I hope you reconsider your thoughts before you decide to leave this forum, no one here wants this place to become RC, where real flaming happens.

If anyone protests to the using of "we" in this, feel free to make a note. This is how I have come to understand everyone here.
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Old 07-06-2010, 06:44 PM   #35
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I'll disagree with ya Jimbo...

I don't know anyone here. I trust some folks' opinion more than others, but NO one opinion here I trust 100%. Using Jimbo's words, it's all just random information. But if I ask a question, and 99% of the people respond in a certain way, then I'm pretty sure that I've stumbled on a fairly "safe answer" that probably isn't effected by opinion or other things no one can control.

Should you be ignored for presenting information? No. Should people take time out of their day to post information in response to your questions when it appears you already have your mind made up? Totally up to them.

Regardless of whether or not you want to torture and kill crabs by using copper - and it will eventually kill them, maybe not outright but in time - I think you need to look into the problems of using copper in tanks with aragonite sand and live rock. You are going to have a tough time keeping the levels of copper at the correct levels. And if you are not keeping those levels correct, then you're just wasting your time.
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Old 07-06-2010, 06:47 PM   #36
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I`m in no way being rude or mean. We encourage people to tell there knowledge and experience but we expect them to have an open mind also. I just want you to know that I`m not just going to take the word of one man. I dont care if it`s Bob Fenner. Mine and other experience and knowledge is just as important.
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Old 07-06-2010, 06:53 PM   #37
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I'll disagree with ya Jimbo...

I don't know anyone here. I trust some folks' opinion more than others, but NO one opinion here I trust 100%. Using Jimbo's words, it's all just random information. But if I ask a question, and 99% of the people respond in a certain way, then I'm pretty sure that I've stumbled on a fairly "safe answer" that probably isn't effected by opinion or other things no one can control.
Pretty much what I was trying to say. Summed up much better. "Knowing" as a matter of your profile and your advice, and as a trusted member of this community. Same goes to all the big posters, Melousu, Ziggy, Neilan, Lando, Thom, Cmor, Sadie, ryshark, roka, TC...these people I "know" but don't actually...
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:32 PM   #38
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Understood and respected. I will try to do a better job of expressing myself. I am going to try some of the things that have been suggested for sure. The last thing I want to do is make enemies on here. I guess I am a bit gun shy on taking advice from strangers. I have been to soooo many fish stores that have a different approach and opinion on tank care and maintenance. How does a person know what to believe. Jeff has always been honest with me he has no ulterior motives he almost married my sister. But I dont necessarily think he is all knowing either. I have lost fish listening to him. So let me sk this.... if treating with copper in the main tank is harmful why dont they list anything on the Cupramine buffered copper bottle about best used in a QT tank or could be harmful to a DT? I know there are some organic treatments out there but I did read a few bad reviews. And as I have been reminded if I spend hundreds of dollars on fish dont I want to use something proven to work. I looked online for some data about red hairy hermits but there wasnt much. If indeed it is a torture I will certainly move them to my invert tank anytime I hve to dose the DT. Again going by what I was told that buffered copper would not harm a giant red hairy hermit crab. I think I also need to clarify that I dont use copper all the time I only use it if I detect ich and then it is a 14 day treatmeant and I then do 2 water changes in a week and also return my bio chem zorb to my canister filter. I did not know I needed to do anymore than that to irraticate the copper. The bottle even says to remove replace carbon.

So anyway my local lfs announced tonight she is closing at the end of the month (sad) I did pick up some new additions that I will post pics of tomorrow. A black boxfish (female) and some inverts, arrow crab, flame scallop, and a candycane shrimp etc. I felt so bad for her she was crying as we were talking about her closing. I am going to help her pack everything up and store it at the end of the month
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:57 PM   #39
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xxx I have been to soooo many fish stores that have a different approach and opinion on tank care and maintenance. How does a person know what to believe.
Ahhh... welcome to the hobby. I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but there are many ways to reach the same result. Some work better than others, but there are many paths. And everyone believes their path is best.

In my opinion, the only way to know what to believe is to try and find the little nuggets of truth in everyone's individual experiences, mentally file those away, and over time you'll develop your own way of looking at things. Those people's experience, coupled with your own, will give you what you need to figure out what the right thing to do is. In your situation with your copper, 6 months down the road you may think about what folks have said here and couple that with your own experiences from whatever you decide to do, and realize you would've done things totally different. Not saying that what everyone here is saying is correct, just saying that some things that were said might make more sense down the road.

This whole "what way is the right way" problem exists in most hobbies. In many hobbies I've been involved with, you start out with one mentor but as you progress and start having contact with other folks you realize there are a multitude of ways to get something done. Some may be safer than others, and some may be outright wrong and dangerous, but as you talk to more people and expand your own knowledge base you get a feel for your own style.

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.... if treating with copper in the main tank is harmful why dont they list anything on the Cupramine buffered copper bottle about best used in a QT tank or could be harmful to a DT?
I think Seachem (maker of Cupramine) is one of the better companies out there. But don't forget... their main point of being in business is to make money. If they put on the bottle all the bad things that could happen with their product, which do you think most people would buy - the stuff that sounds scary or the stuff that claims to be "reef-safe" and "organic".

I remember a thread somewhere (not here), where someone was complaining that they used UV while using Cupramine... even though the bottle says to turn off any UV sources. The person's tank pretty much died and upon investigation they found out that the UV breaks the Cupramine solution down into a copper solution that becomes very very toxic... more toxic than the original Cupramine. The person complained that Seachem should've said that on the bottle, or at least hinted that their direction to turn off any UV wasn't just a "suggestion" but something that if not done would be very very bad. Seachem officially responded and basically said that well... there just isn't enough room on the bottle to go in to great detail on how to use the product properly. I would guess this would be their response to your question also. Either that, or that it's pretty standard procedure to use a different tank to medicate fish and they didn't think they had to say that. It's kind of like expecting a warning on your gas filler cap that says not to put sugar in your gas tank.

There is another aspect about treating a display tank for ich with copper that I have no clue about, but you might want to ask around. Does the recommended copper treatment of X days at X concentration, kill ALL the stages of ich present in the tank? What about the dormant stages that are laying in your sand bed waiting to "hatch". Normally, that generation of ich would be killed by letting your tank remain fishless for 6-8 weeks while you are treating the fish in a separate tank. This breaks the life cycle of the parasite by killing ALL stages of it since they don't have access to any fish... they need fish to live and continue their life cycle. Then when you return your fish to the main tank, the main tank is free from all stages of the parasite. I have a gut feel that the normal copper recommendations will not be effective against all the stages of ich that are present in a tank.
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:17 PM   #40
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The first 3 words that follow the section on the bottle labeled Directions: are... Remove all invertebrates . I guess they expect you to infer. In addition I have an old bottle of Rid-Ich that states 'may harm invertebrates and live rock'.

Why it's not in bold on the bottle is a great question for Seachem. I don't buy their products any more. I have a rock in my front yard that knows more about their product line than their support people do.

As far as your lfs goes, I would offer this. Retailers treat their tanks quite differently as most of the tanks are connected to the same (or several ) shared filtration systems. Their approach and the home aquarium should differ. They should know that and so should their customers.
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