Creating a safe environment

[CaptainAhab]

two weeks isn't nearly long enough even if the fish shows no outwad signs of ich.

Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans - A Discussion of this Parasite and the Treatment Options Available, Part I by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com

 

[melosu58]

Let me see where to start. Where are you getting your info? Just wondering. 1) Copper kills parasites but it also kills inverts like snails, crabs and shrimp. It also kills corals.
2) Fish cannot survive for months without eating. They can go a few weeks. And even at that why would you want to subject them to starvation.
3) Ich will kill period if not treated
4) I personally dont agree with treating fish unless you know what the problem is and what you are treating for. One of the main purposes for the QT is observation. Some fish have a hard time with copper.

These are some of the things I have a problem with. You might be better off to seek out experiences of others than where you are getting your info from.

 

[boxfishlover]

Ok I do not know what DT stands for so I cannot respond to that until I do. But if DT is short for my main tank then let me ask this if ich is detected in a tank for whatever reason are you saying that rather than treat the tank that every fish should come out and be quarentined and then treated with copper? I guess that would be the ideal thing to do but here is my thought on that....1. I do not have the room to set up a big enough quarentine tank to house all of my fish, because if ich gets in the tank I promise all of the fish in the tank have it to one degree or another. 2. If my fish are already ailing the last thing I want to do is stress them more by netting and moving them. As far as I know copper is one of the most effective and safe ways to treat fish with ich. As far as mixing chemiclas down the road I have been told if enough water changes are done and a good chemical filtration system is in place that any other meds including antibiotics will not harm a tank. As far as CUC goes I usually only keep red hermits in my tank and copper does not harm them. if I did decide to try to keep any other clean up in the tank like snails I would move them to my invert tank before dosing the tank and return them when the levels have diminished. Let me also add that everything in my tank had ich last week (my latest addition must have been a carrier) and I treated with copper and everyone is healthy and eating again. I have 7 more days left on the treatment and will then put my bio chem back and do a 20% water change. Once the bio is returned it usually takes less than 24 hours and my copper levels are barely traceable. Maybe I have alot to learn here I dont know. I value the advice on here but also value the advice from my business contact who has been in the aquatics business for 30 years.

 

[boxfishlover]

Let me see where to start. Where are you getting your info? Just wondering. 1) Copper kills parasites but it also kills inverts like snails, crabs and shrimp. It also kills corals.
2) Fish cannot survive for months without eating. They can go a few weeks. And even at that why would you want to subject them to starvation.
3) Ich will kill period if not treated
4) I personally dont agree with treating fish unless you know what the problem is and what you are treating for. One of the main purposes for the QT is observation. Some fish have a hard time with copper.

These are some of the things I have a problem with. You might be better off to seek out experiences of others than where you are getting your info from.

My information comes from a place called Aqautic Imports in Appleton WI the owner is Jeff Manske. And I realize what copper will kill thats why my tank is just for fish. I do try to keep a red hermit in there for clean up but my tank is full of carnevoirs who love inverts so my options are limited. And you are wrong about how long a fish can go without eating call the Shed Aquarium in Chicago. Maybe not all types of fish but many can go up to 6 months with no food and survive. I would never starve my fish but I was always concerned when they would not eat that they would starve and was informed they would not. I was just stating a fact. As far as observation goes I agree but have learned the hard way observing to long, by losing fish. Ich can be present without being visable on the fish. Maybe when I post I need to be specific with the type of fish I have, they are box fish and puffers which are different than the average fish tank. My apologies for any confusion. I honestly do not know how copper affects other types of fish. I just know it is very affective for ich. I will keep reading and learning. Thanks everyone

 

[Jimbo7]

DT = Display Tank / Main Tank
It comes down to how you want to do things, if you are OK dosing and you know the consequences, then its your choice. Know that even if your copper levels are barely detectable, its still there, it seeps in the rock work and other things and you will never be completely rid of it. IMO moving all your fish to a QT is not the ideal solution, its the responsible one. If you dont have the space or whatever to provide this, then I would argue you aren't completely setup enough to keep the things that you are.
While netting the fish and moving them does stress them, it is the better solution in the long run, seeing as their conditions in a QT are much more controlled and stable, making their recovery faster and easier.
I'm not trying to be a jerk here, just telling you my opinions on the matter. We all have our own slightly different views and methods.

 

[Bige]

You dont have to use copper to treat ich. DT is display tank. I know you are new here so I will tell you this, Melosu58, Captainahab, kurt_nelson,HN1, and jimbo7, all give great advice with the fish in mind. Combined I would say many more than 30 years experience.

 

[boxfishlover]

I want everyone to know I value the advice and will be working on getting at least one QT tank set up. Hopefully it wont be an issue much longer my DT is almost complete. Once it is hopefully with a good schedule everyone will stay healthy and all of this will be a non issue. One of the reasons I do not QT when I purchase a fish is my lfs orders my fish for me and she holds them for 2 weeks before I take them and I observe there for any bad signs. Again my friend Jeff tells me that less than 10% of us actually QT fish prior to tanking them. Due to many different reasons. Anyway I do want to run my tank schedule by you guys and get some feedback.

Both my tanks get a 10% water change every week. I change the bio chem zorb in my big tank every two weeks (overkill I know) I try to leave the media alone unless I see my water return slow down. I run a Rena XP3 on my 72 gallon. I change the carbon in my 10 gallon once a month only because it does not see nearly as much frozen food in it. Once a month I remove my fake plants and rinse them off and clean the glass in the back of the tank. I try not to disturb the substrate very often unless it has alot of brown deposit in it. I blow the rock off once a month with a Turkey baster. I do not vacuum at all my past experience with vacuuming seems to have hurt the fish or something 6 yrs ago when I first had these tanks up it seemed like everytime I vaccumed I lost a fish. I fee my big tank 3 times a day with a combination of frozen krill, mysis & brine shrimp. Depends on what everyone is hungry for. I know I over feed my nitrate levels tell me so and the fact I need another red hermit since Spike snacked on the last one when he was molting!! I keep my salinity lower on my big tank around .018 temp is a steady 78. My invert tank I keep at .021 and 78 as well. Wow am I rambling anyway if anyone wants to advise or educate me beyond here feel free to call me anytime 920-915-9020 and again thanks for the input.

 

[boxfishlover]

I actually found an old post reffering to my friend and his shop

I stopped by Aquatic Imports in Green Bay, WI after going to the airshow in Oshkosh and picked up some new stuff. He has a ton of good coral, fish and freshwater stuff. I'm always impressed. He even threw in a free $40 coral after I bought a $60 and $25 coral because he said it was a slow day. Not too bad. He's thrown in free frozen food often, but a free coral was cool.

Just wanted to plug this guy, he's a real responsible lfs and that's rare.

He is located on Clay st (kind of, actually, his house is on clay, and his shop is the one story masonry building behind. It's large and hard to miss. If you need more in terms of directions, just let me know.

Oh yeah, he also always provides me with a styrafoam cooler box since he knows I drive three hours back home every time I stop in. Just good service.

Granted he has since moved to Appleton and this was in 2002 but he really does know his stuff.
Bearfan
Moderator Emeritus

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Franklin, TN
Posts: 3,551
Images: 45

Aquatic Imports in Green Bay, WI
I stopped by Aquatic Imports in Green Bay, WI after going to the airshow in Oshkosh and picked up some new stuff. He has a ton of good coral, fish and freshwater stuff. I'm always impressed. He even threw in a free $40 coral after I bought a $60 and $25 coral because he said it was a slow day. Not too bad. He's thrown in free frozen food often, but a free coral was cool.

Just wanted to plug this guy, he's a real responsible lfs and that's rare.

He is located on Clay st (kind of, actually, his house is on clay, and his shop is the one story masonry building behind. It's large and hard to miss. If you need more in terms of directions, just let me know.

Oh yeah, he also always provides me with a styrafoam cooler box since he knows I drive three hours back home every time I stop in. Just good service.

Bearfan
Moderator Emeritus

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Franklin, TN
Posts: 3,551
Images: 45

Aquatic Imports in Green Bay, WI
I stopped by Aquatic Imports in Green Bay, WI after going to the airshow in Oshkosh and picked up some new stuff. He has a ton of good coral, fish and freshwater stuff. I'm always impressed. He even threw in a free $40 coral after I bought a $60 and $25 coral because he said it was a slow day. Not too bad. He's thrown in free frozen food often, but a free coral was cool.

Just wanted to plug this guy, he's a real responsible lfs and that's rare.

He is located on Clay st (kind of, actually, his house is on clay, and his shop is the one story masonry building behind. It's large and hard to miss. If you need more in terms of directions, just let me know.

Oh yeah, he also always provides me with a styrafoam cooler box since he knows I drive three hours back home every time I stop in. Just good service.

 

[boxfishlover]

Home here is his website

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

...Maybe I have alot to learn here I dont know. I value the advice on here but also value the advice from my business contact who has been in the aquatics business for 30 years.

You keep saying you're appreciative of the advice here, but you refute just about all of it with statements about what you've "learned" and what your LFS tells you. This does not give the appearance of one with an open mind about learning. And yes... you DO have a lot to learn here.

 

[melosu58]

And you are wrong about how long a fish can go without eating call the Shed Aquarium in Chicago. Maybe not all types of fish but many can go up to 6 months with no food and survive.

Not trying to be argumentative but I can pretty well guarantee you that no fish we can put in our home aquarium will last 6 months without feeding no matter who says it. They would lose credibility by saying that.

 

[Jimbo7]

Not trying to be argumentative but I can pretty well guarantee you that no fish we can put in our home aquarium will last 6 months without feeding no matter who says it. They would lose credibility by saying that.

Maybe like a huge shark...I know they have like a "power saver" mode that lets them survive for a long time. 6 months is pretty extreme.

But I agree completely, no ornamental fish we would have could possibly come close to that. I also agree with Kurt. I would be willing to bet the same guy who told you to use the large quantities of meds in your DT is the same one who sold it to you, and you can't blame him for that. You get good, unbiased info here, if you insist on refuting all of it, I would expect to see your posts start to become unanswered by a lot of people around here.

 

[boxfishlover]

Maybe like a huge shark...I know they have like a "power saver" mode that lets them survive for a long time. 6 months is pretty extreme.

But I agree completely, no ornamental fish we would have could possibly come close to that. I also agree with Kurt. I would be willing to bet the same guy who told you to use the large quantities of meds in your DT is the same one who sold it to you, and you can't blame him for that. You get good, unbiased info here, if you insist on refuting all of it, I would expect to see your posts start to become unanswered by a lot of people around here.

You would lose that bet I live in PA now he is in WI I used to live in WI all my fish I currently have came from lfs in PA and he told me to be aggressive if I suspect ich and that it is better to be to strong vs to weak that many fish especially mine can handle a higher doseage of copper. ANd yes you are right I do have alot to learn that is why I am here to read and respond I am disputing I am just passing along the information I get. That is one reason why I posted his name his business and website which includes his phone number. I think some of you could learn something from him and vice versa. I thought the point of this was to educate each other by first hand experiences and the advice from people who definately know better than at least me. I am not claiming the information givin to me is 100% accurate just passing on what was told to me. And yes the Shed did tell me in person mind you when I was there on a private tour by there head biologist that many of the same fish we have in our tanks can survive for months without food. Now this is a man with a degree in this field. Who do I believe a faceless name on here or him? Again just because I present other opinions and facts into this forum and the regs on here dont like it should I be ignored, really??? Think about it. If you reread all of my posts no where will you find that any of my statements are condescending or rude. Bummer I thought I found a good site for learning and debate.

 

[Jimbo7]

You would lose that bet I live in PA now he is in WI I used to live in WI all my fish I currently have came from lfs in PA and he told me to be aggressive if I suspect ich and that it is better to be to strong vs to weak that many fish especially mine can handle a higher doseage of copper.

Ill eat my words then. I was wrong. Again, as I have stated, there are different beliefs and methods in all aspects of the hobby.

ANd yes you are right I do have alot to learn that is why I am here to read and respond I am disputing I am just passing along the information I get...I am not claiming the information givin to me is 100% accurate just passing on what was told to me.

The only reason people on here have posted how they have, is because you barely acknowledge what we have said, and just keep stating what your friend has said, or your LFS owner has said. This is an open forum for debate, but instead you might want to consider prefacing your statement with "I always thought, I was told, What do you guys think?" If you are looking for our input or "debate" into any certain field. The way it comes off now, is like so many other people who keep saying the same things over and over trying to get someone to agree with them, so they can keep doing what they are doing and feel better.

Who do I believe a faceless name on here or him? Again just because I present other opinions and facts into this forum and the regs on here dont like it should I be ignored, really??? Think about it. If you reread all of my posts no where will you find that any of my statements are condescending or rude. Bummer I thought I found a good site for learning and debate.

Frankly, look at it from our point of view, we all know each other here, and vouch for each others advice. you are supplying us loads of information from someone we don't know. We feel the same as you do, just random information coming from a supposed source. The fact of the matter is, if you aren't considering and thinking about what people post here, then they aren't going to take their time to continually help you. Not that we avoid you or ignore you because you bring up argumentative topics or something.

I don't feel anyone here has been condescending or rude either, there are some people who will give it to you a lot straighter then others, but that is what you get in a forum. Personally, having subscriptions to 6+ forums, I keep coming back here because it is the most laid back, and friendly. We are all more then happy to answer your questions and I think everyone here will still admit they have things to learn. But just consider how you may come off as well, if you really want to open a "debate" consider providing articles or some solid proof in order for us to correctly assess it and give you our personal feedback. I hope you reconsider your thoughts before you decide to leave this forum, no one here wants this place to become RC, where real flaming happens.

If anyone protests to the using of "we" in this, feel free to make a note. This is how I have come to understand everyone here.

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

I'll disagree with ya Jimbo...

I don't know anyone here. I trust some folks' opinion more than others, but NO one opinion here I trust 100%. Using Jimbo's words, it's all just random information. But if I ask a question, and 99% of the people respond in a certain way, then I'm pretty sure that I've stumbled on a fairly "safe answer" that probably isn't effected by opinion or other things no one can control.

Should you be ignored for presenting information? No. Should people take time out of their day to post information in response to your questions when it appears you already have your mind made up? Totally up to them.

Regardless of whether or not you want to torture and kill crabs by using copper - and it will eventually kill them, maybe not outright but in time - I think you need to look into the problems of using copper in tanks with aragonite sand and live rock. You are going to have a tough time keeping the levels of copper at the correct levels. And if you are not keeping those levels correct, then you're just wasting your time.

 

[melosu58]

I`m in no way being rude or mean. We encourage people to tell there knowledge and experience but we expect them to have an open mind also. I just want you to know that I`m not just going to take the word of one man. I dont care if it`s Bob Fenner. Mine and other experience and knowledge is just as important.

 

[Jimbo7]

I'll disagree with ya Jimbo...

I don't know anyone here. I trust some folks' opinion more than others, but NO one opinion here I trust 100%. Using Jimbo's words, it's all just random information. But if I ask a question, and 99% of the people respond in a certain way, then I'm pretty sure that I've stumbled on a fairly "safe answer" that probably isn't effected by opinion or other things no one can control.

Pretty much what I was trying to say. Summed up much better. "Knowing" as a matter of your profile and your advice, and as a trusted member of this community. Same goes to all the big posters, Melousu, Ziggy, Neilan, Lando, Thom, Cmor, Sadie, ryshark, roka, TC...these people I "know" but don't actually...

 

[boxfishlover]

Understood and respected. I will try to do a better job of expressing myself. I am going to try some of the things that have been suggested for sure. The last thing I want to do is make enemies on here. I guess I am a bit gun shy on taking advice from strangers. I have been to soooo many fish stores that have a different approach and opinion on tank care and maintenance. How does a person know what to believe. Jeff has always been honest with me he has no ulterior motives he almost married my sister. But I dont necessarily think he is all knowing either. I have lost fish listening to him. So let me sk this.... if treating with copper in the main tank is harmful why dont they list anything on the Cupramine buffered copper bottle about best used in a QT tank or could be harmful to a DT? I know there are some organic treatments out there but I did read a few bad reviews. And as I have been reminded if I spend hundreds of dollars on fish dont I want to use something proven to work. I looked online for some data about red hairy hermits but there wasnt much. If indeed it is a torture I will certainly move them to my invert tank anytime I hve to dose the DT. Again going by what I was told that buffered copper would not harm a giant red hairy hermit crab. I think I also need to clarify that I dont use copper all the time I only use it if I detect ich and then it is a 14 day treatmeant and I then do 2 water changes in a week and also return my bio chem zorb to my canister filter. I did not know I needed to do anymore than that to irraticate the copper. The bottle even says to remove replace carbon.

So anyway my local lfs announced tonight she is closing at the end of the month (sad) I did pick up some new additions that I will post pics of tomorrow. A black boxfish (female) and some inverts, arrow crab, flame scallop, and a candycane shrimp etc. I felt so bad for her she was crying as we were talking about her closing. I am going to help her pack everything up and store it at the end of the month

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

xxx I have been to soooo many fish stores that have a different approach and opinion on tank care and maintenance. How does a person know what to believe.

Ahhh... welcome to the hobby. I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but there are many ways to reach the same result. Some work better than others, but there are many paths. And everyone believes their path is best.

In my opinion, the only way to know what to believe is to try and find the little nuggets of truth in everyone's individual experiences, mentally file those away, and over time you'll develop your own way of looking at things. Those people's experience, coupled with your own, will give you what you need to figure out what the right thing to do is. In your situation with your copper, 6 months down the road you may think about what folks have said here and couple that with your own experiences from whatever you decide to do, and realize you would've done things totally different. Not saying that what everyone here is saying is correct, just saying that some things that were said might make more sense down the road.

This whole "what way is the right way" problem exists in most hobbies. In many hobbies I've been involved with, you start out with one mentor but as you progress and start having contact with other folks you realize there are a multitude of ways to get something done. Some may be safer than others, and some may be outright wrong and dangerous, but as you talk to more people and expand your own knowledge base you get a feel for your own style.

.... if treating with copper in the main tank is harmful why dont they list anything on the Cupramine buffered copper bottle about best used in a QT tank or could be harmful to a DT?

I think Seachem (maker of Cupramine) is one of the better companies out there. But don't forget... their main point of being in business is to make money. If they put on the bottle all the bad things that could happen with their product, which do you think most people would buy - the stuff that sounds scary or the stuff that claims to be "reef-safe" and "organic".

I remember a thread somewhere (not here), where someone was complaining that they used UV while using Cupramine... even though the bottle says to turn off any UV sources. The person's tank pretty much died and upon investigation they found out that the UV breaks the Cupramine solution down into a copper solution that becomes very very toxic... more toxic than the original Cupramine. The person complained that Seachem should've said that on the bottle, or at least hinted that their direction to turn off any UV wasn't just a "suggestion" but something that if not done would be very very bad. Seachem officially responded and basically said that well... there just isn't enough room on the bottle to go in to great detail on how to use the product properly. I would guess this would be their response to your question also. Either that, or that it's pretty standard procedure to use a different tank to medicate fish and they didn't think they had to say that. It's kind of like expecting a warning on your gas filler cap that says not to put sugar in your gas tank.

There is another aspect about treating a display tank for ich with copper that I have no clue about, but you might want to ask around. Does the recommended copper treatment of X days at X concentration, kill ALL the stages of ich present in the tank? What about the dormant stages that are laying in your sand bed waiting to "hatch". Normally, that generation of ich would be killed by letting your tank remain fishless for 6-8 weeks while you are treating the fish in a separate tank. This breaks the life cycle of the parasite by killing ALL stages of it since they don't have access to any fish... they need fish to live and continue their life cycle. Then when you return your fish to the main tank, the main tank is free from all stages of the parasite. I have a gut feel that the normal copper recommendations will not be effective against all the stages of ich that are present in a tank.

 

[CaptainAhab]

The first 3 words that follow the section on the bottle labeled Directions: are... Remove all invertebrates . I guess they expect you to infer. In addition I have an old bottle of Rid-Ich that states 'may harm invertebrates and live rock'.

Why it's not in bold on the bottle is a great question for Seachem. I don't buy their products any more. I have a rock in my front yard that knows more about their product line than their support people do.

As far as your lfs goes, I would offer this. Retailers treat their tanks quite differently as most of the tanks are connected to the same (or several ) shared filtration systems. Their approach and the home aquarium should differ. They should know that and so should their customers.