FOWLR ease?

[imahawki]

OK, I just set up my FW planted and while the planted part is not going outstanding (I dont have CO2 or the proper lighting in place so I'm crossing my fingers) I think I'm already starting to get MTS. I am starting to wonder if doing a FOWLR tank is really as difficult or expensive as I thought so I have a series of questions.

1) It seems that the smaller the SW tank the more difficult it can be due to water param volitility with small tanks. That being said, what would be a good size tank for someone who wants it to be a bit easier and avoid these difficulties?

2) What are the minimum hardware requirements. I really dont know much about this. I assume I need a power filter, lighting, and a thermometer just like freshwater but outside of that, what else? I read about protein skimmers and that there is some debate about using them etc. I also read about sumps etc. and dont even know what some of this stuff is. I've read all the FAQs and still dont really know.

3) What is live rock and live sand how does it work, what does it do, is it even remotely related to corals?

4) What are the lighting requirements for FOWLR?

5) If you were going to do your first SW tank (FOWLR) knowing what you know now, what would you do as far as setup, specific equipment, stocking etc. to give the best chance for success and enjoyment?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Feron]

I'm still a newb, but I guess I can offer some of the bits of advice that I've picked up around here to try and help out

1) Everyone says bigger is far better with a SW.. most I have seen starting out go 55 or so.. I was thinking 70 when I ended up with my 90 (90 is taller). More surface area of water = more life (generally..).
Most people I see around these parts prefer a 'reef ready' type of tank.. or one with holes drilled in the bottom to allow for a sump/overflow type system. That not only eliminates people from seeing your gadgets, but can add all sorts of things into the system (failsafes, foodstores, filtration etc).

2) Lights, heaters, thermometer, filter of some nature, way to produce flow (powerheads or a good pump on a return line with multiple outputs).
A sump is basically another tank underneith your setup that houses filtration and water pump type stuff. For instance I have a wet/dry 'sump' - fills about halfway with water that flows down over filter media, goes through more filter media, gets pulled into a skimmer (which removes disolved wastes..great to have imho) and then up through a pump/line back into the tank.

3) Live rock and live sand are simply rock and sand with bacteria on them (among other things!).
These bacteria break down waste products in the water and add a level of natural filtration to your tank.
They also supply food sources (via algae or critters) to certain livestock (mandarin dragonette<?> for instance eats little bug like things that live on your rocks).
Live rock usually comes with some pretty interesting tag-a-long life forms (I've got a bunch of tube worms and sea ferns...way cool!)

4) From what I have read, the normal ole flourescent and actenic lights are fine. The more power behind the lights, the more flexibility in livestock (for corals and anenomes).... but more light = more heat/power usage.

5) I still am... But I'll tell ya the real key... take your time & be patient!
(oh, and a nice bankroll helps ALOT)

Hope some of that helps

 

[imahawki]

Thanks for the info! Another thing I forgot to ask was what happens when you do PWC since you are obviously taking out salt water and filling with fresh water. I'd like to be able to fill with my python from the tap and then add salt to bring it back up. Is that completely out of the question?

 

[Feron]

Ahh yeah.. I forgot about the water heh
Not only do you need salt and all sorts of marine specific tests (get a refractometer by the way..hydrometers are garbage), but the water is more of a 'pain' then with freshwater.
Your water to replenish after a water change has to be ready 24hrs in advance.
I use a 32gallon trash can that I put water from a RO/DI unit into until I get to 20 gallons (my salt mix has instructions for 4 gallons...).
The can has a heater and a powerhead in it to heat/keep the water moving to aerate it.
Then I use the python to syphon out the water to whatever level, then pump water in from my trashcan.
Many people here use all sorts of clever methods - auto topoff via piping and a float etc etc.
Right now I do alot of legwork (ie filling up gallon jugs with filtered water and taking em downstairs to dump into the can).
Fresh water (no salt) is used only if your salinity gets too high... you add a little at a time (preferably somehow which isn't directly into the stream of your livestock - yet another good reason to have a sump) until the salinity measures right.
Never mix in salt in the tank unless you have no life in the tank.. you can kill em pretty easy that way (from what I've read).

Also, you'll want to invest in a cheaper tiny tank/powerhead(or airstone)/filter for a quarentine. Even the smallest setups call for this (again, from what I read) so you have a way to properly acclimate new arrivals and watch them for a period of a few days/weeks to ensure they are healthy and won't kill everything else int he tank (or make em sick etc etc).

Like I said, take it slow and have a bankroll (don't buy the cheapest items for the main tank, you'll regret it later).

 

[imahawki]

ah, between the need to prepare water in advance and what sounds like a pretty absolute need for a quarentine tank, maybe my next tank will be just a larger FW instead of SW.

 

[Feron]

Well, don't let the extra work getcha... I tell you, my tank is new.. Just rock and the beginnings of a cleaner crew... but the rock is facsinating! Little bits of life clinging to rock...going through hell to end up in my tank...and almost instantly bouncing back and thriving...

It's so worth every moment of 'chore' associated with it.
To me anyhow (and trust me, lugging a 32g trashcan with a couple hundred lbs of water in it is a chore...that's why I bought another pump and a long piece of tube!)

 

[imahawki]

I guess it might depend on placement of the tank, but I live in a 3 story house with all levels finished so I really dont have a place for a quarentine tank and "extra" water to be conditioning.

 

[melosu58]

IMO a 55 gallon tank is a good size to start. Pretty good job feron. I`ll have to recommend you for advisor

 

[imahawki]

OK guys, I'm back on the trail. My other hobby is home theater and I belong to several forums. I pinged some guys there as I trust their input on a variety of things and most of them do not go nearly into the level of complexity that I see here. I definitely wonder how much of the recomendations here are based on the hobbiest perspective. I.e. if someone said what is the minimum cost of a decent home theater setup, we might all say $7,000 - $15,000 minimum but I'm sure people here have $1,000 - $2,000 or even less in a system that they would call a home theater but people in the hobby tend to go overboard. I mean, some of these guys have been doing SW for 20 years and dont know what LR is (does that mean they dont have LR or that they just dont know that's what its called, etc.) or a protein skimmer or a powerhead. They have a HOB filter based on the aquarium size, a heater, a light bar and a hydrometer to measure salinity and that's basically it. They do 10% water changes monthly. Of course these are FO tanks, no corals or anything, but I'm not looking to do that either. Many of these guys claim their SW tanks are way easier than the FW tanks they used to run. Any more input????

 

[tecwzrd]

And here I though my $1000 dollar Bose system was pretty decent It could be because they have done it for 20 years they don’t know about using lr for filtration. It hasn’t been that long since people switched over from using canisters/wet dry/ and ugf’s to lr for filtration.

Of course if you want to keep it really simple and not get lr then I’d recommend a 30+ gal tank, Hot Magnum with bio wheel for filtration, a titanium heater, and floating hydrometer. As long as you do monthly maintenance on the filter you shouldn’t have any no3 problems and then it’s just a matter of doing a weekly or bi-weekly pwc of 10%-15% which is no harder than doing with fw except you have to mix the water the day before with a ph & heater so you don’t chemically burn the fish.

Keep in mind that you can’t stock as many sw fish as fw (see calculator at top of page) and you should be fine.

 

[tjara03]

My first tank was a 20L tank with two clarkii Clowns.. all i had running on it was 2 HOB filters, one powerhead and about 10lbs of live rock.. i used Crushed Coral as my substrate. i had this setup runnong for about 6 months with no problems. but i was doing pwc's weekly. this was a nice setup at the time and it was fairly cheap for me to get started. now i have a 50 gal with 70lbs LR and numerous fish and its beautiful. but at the same time this required more money and knowledge to get going. there are many different directions you can go to make things easier; cheaper, but at the same time, you got to remember that the rewards for harder work and more money = better results. if you do start with just FO or FOWLR i can guarantee that you will find yourself looking into upgraded lights and everything to start doing corals, this hobby is very adicting and exciting. dont let the little things get in your way. the best advice i can give to you is to keep looking and this site and asking as many questions as you can, because the people on this site are absolutely amazing at answering any and all questions. also you may want to pick up some books to read..

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/saltbook.php

The New Marine Aquarium and The Conscientious Marine Aquarist are the most commonly recommended books throughout this site and are loaded with information... i hope my little blurp encourages you to continue to look into this wonderful hobby and i wish the best of luck to you... Keep asking Questions!!!!!

 

[imahawki]

I'm not sure what the rolly eyes is for unless its actually demonstrating my point. On the audio/home theater forums I participate in, Bose is definitely considered bad. That said, what are the requirements for LR? One of the reasons people I talked to thought that SW was not that hard was because I think they were literally doing Fish ONLY without LR. If LR is a benefit as a form of filtration, what are the downsides? Do you need special lights for LR? Do you have to have a protein skimmer with LR? Do you need one even if you DONT have LR? If you use LR do you NOT need any other form of filtration at all? or does it just cut down on the requirements. The people I talked to all admit to being out of the hobby for a while so they are not claiming their way is right just saying what they used to do. And yes, they used to run UGFs as well.

I know I dont want to get into reef at all but can someone kinda list the order of complexity/cost/equipment needed and what you can do at each stage from the bare min (say fish only, power filter, heater) up to just under the point of reef?

 

[tecwzrd]

The roll of the eyes is because most audiophiles do think Bose systems suck and since I’m not one I think they sound just fine. That and my hearing is going out on me and I have listened to $10,000 systems and can’t tell the difference.

With enough lr (ie: 1+ lbs per gal) and with good water movement (ie: 10 times turnover on your tank) lr can solely act as your bio-filtration. Protein skimmer isn’t needed for fo but is helpful in removing the DOC and keeping the tank clear. Main reason why I recommended the H.O.T. Magnum with bio-wheel is two fold in that it provides excellent bio-filtration if you don’t have lr and it comes with a micron filter to help eliminate excess DOC from the water keeping your tank clear.

With just that, a heater, and basic no lighting it’s really all you need to do a basic fo setup.

Edit: forgot some sort of sg meter as mentioned before.

 

[imahawki]

So if I did want to do LR for the filtration benefits does it require any special (by which I mean powerful like a planted FW not just actinic or whatever) lighting or is that just corals that need special light. Also, say I did LR could I use a cheaper power filter with a protein skimmer? Like a Marineland Emperor and a Coralife Super Skimmer? Then just add a couple heaters for redundancy and normal lighting?

 

[tecwzrd]

Basic lighting is all that's needed for fowlr unless you want to grow coralline which would require slightly higher lighting. If you go with enough lr then you don’t need a hob or canister at all, if you were thinking of less lr then 1+lbs per gal then you would want to get it. Either way you will need a couple of power heads for water movement/oxygen circulation. A Coralife Super Skimmer is a decent basic skimmer.

 

[imahawki]

So I could go with ~1 lb/gallon LR (does that include live sand or is the totally seperate, also, is that a good metric as arent we concerned with surface area?) a skimmer, thermometers, basic light, hydrometer or refractometer, a couple power heads and that would be all I need?

 

[tecwzrd]

You forgot a heater but yes that would do it. Just don't overstock the tank and you would be fine. ls is a separate issue discussed in this thread and this one

 

[tjara03]

i have the Coralife super skimmer on my tank and it works wonderfully!!!! i also have a HOB filter but i plan on removing it here really soon.. you will be surprised of all the junk the skimmer will bring out of your water. Good Luck!!

 

[imahawki]

Thank you guys for keeping up the good responses. Definitely moving from the probably not to probably so camp. Still need to pull together finances for the whole thing.

 

[tecwzrd]

Still need to pull together finances for the whole thing.

No problem. You could always sell your home theater setup. Once you get into reefing you wouldn’t have time to enjoy a movie anyways