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Old 04-30-2007, 03:35 AM   #1
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Lighting & Stocking Questions... Please Help

I am helping a friend set up a 240 gal in wall agressive FOWLR tank.

They recently bought the house with a in wall system, and it was stocked with cheap gravel, coral skeletons, plastic plants, a skunk cleaner, (No snail or hermits), a pair of gold stripe maroon clowns, a midas blenny, and some damsels. The tank was sumpless, skimmerless, had an underground filter, and was just awful. The lights were PCs and since they moved in 2 months ago they havent even run them. The only good thing is that is was a closed loop, plumbed from the bottom.

Today we threw away all the gravel, underground filter and water and scrubbed the tank, threw in 200lbs of sugar sized argonite and 300lbs of live rock.

During the next week we are going to begin building the sump and skimmer and filling with water to begin cycling. We also have two 250w 20k MH's and moonlights going in to update the old PC lights.

Right now we are only going to focus on FOWLR but their may be an interest in adding soft corals only later for color.

1) Do you think there will be any heating issues with the MH's and closed canopy?

and...

2) Since I only have expirience with reefs can you please tell me if this stocking list is compatable... if not, any sugesstions? TIA

- Green Wolf Eel
- Yellowhead Eel (Fimbriated Eel)
- Tesselata Eel
- Blue Spotted Ray
- Blackfoot Lionfish or Volitian Lion
- Hippo Tang
- Chevron Tang
- Clown Trigger
- Panther Grouper
- Red Knobby Starfish
- Chocolate Chip Star
- Longspine Urchins

Thanks again!
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Old 04-30-2007, 04:41 AM   #2
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As far as heat is concerned, I don't think it will be much of an issue w/ that amount of water. Although you may want to consider adding a fan to be on the safe side. I imagine w/ nothing at all pulling heat out of the canopy it may get a little too hot after a few hours. Sorry I can't help w/ large/aggressive fish.

FWIW I use two small fans to pull heat out of my canopy. I run 2x250w MH / 2x110w VHO over a 55 gal w/ no chiller. In the summer I see temp. peaks of 85-86. Here is a pic of the fans/canopy-

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/photop...00&ppuser=2014
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Old 04-30-2007, 11:30 AM   #3
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I can't help you with the eels. That trigger will eat inverts, those two stars are not reef safe. The urchins might make it. They are pretty good at defending themselves with their venemous spines. The loin and grouper will eat anything they can fit in their mouths. The chevron will becom agressive toward other tangs. The ray will also eat your inverts.
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Old 04-30-2007, 03:01 PM   #4
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One thing to keep in mind is that eels love a lot of live rock while rays are best with very little since they need a lot of area on the bottom to lay/bury in the sand etc. It is difficult keeping a good tank that provides both of those for your fish. One solution is placing most of your liverock on one side of the tank. The main problem with this is that it is not a great looking set-up.

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if the clown trigger killed your lionfish. They love to nip away at their fins until they die from stress or injury. Also the same goes for the longspine urchins. I had about 6 which were all eaten by my picasso trigger and puffers. Surprisingly one urchin that hasn't been eaten is a pencil urchin. I can't say it will stay that way in the future!

You also might be overstocking the tank with 9 fish that are all quite large. With the general rule of 5 gallons per fish you are looking at 240g/5gal per fish/9 fish = 5.3 inches per fish. I think every one of those fish will be WELL over 5.3 inches. You might want to consider cutting the fish list in half. I personally would reccomend ditching the trigger, one of the tangs, the ray, and at least one eel. I'm sure it's not news you want to hear, but it's best for ALL of the fish.
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Old 04-30-2007, 03:03 PM   #5
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The canopy should not be closed all the way around and at least have an opening in the back with possible air vents built in. You will need additional fans to help keep the air flowing. Your best bet might be to remove the canopy altogether and hang halides from the ceiling? Just an option...

I would stay away from triggers if you would rather have lionfish. I would also nix any thoughts of stingrays. You could do a Red Sea biotope w/Zebrasoma desjardinii (Red Sea Sailfin Tang), Thalassoma rueppellii (Klunzinger's Wrasse), Rhinecanthus assasi (Assasi Trigger), Diodon holacanthus (Long-spined puffer), and Gymnomuraena zebra (Zebra Moray). The Tesselata would be doable if you got a rather small specimen, but are obvious fish eaters whereas the zebra primarily feeds on crustaceans. Either way, make sure you have a secure top.
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Old 04-30-2007, 05:59 PM   #6
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IMO I believe the bioload will be too much with all those inhabitants. I agree with James that the rays would not be a good idea. If you are planning any corals then some of those fish will be a bad idea also.
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Old 04-30-2007, 07:54 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MT79
As far as heat is concerned, I don't think it will be much of an issue w/ that amount of water. Although you may want to consider adding a fan to be on the safe side. I imagine w/ nothing at all pulling heat out of the canopy it may get a little too hot after a few hours. Sorry I can't help w/ large/aggressive fish.

FWIW I use two small fans to pull heat out of my canopy. I run 2x250w MH / 2x110w VHO over a 55 gal w/ no chiller. In the summer I see temp. peaks of 85-86. Here is a pic of the fans/canopy-

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/photop...00&ppuser=2014
FIRST OFF, thank you everyone for your replies... I am very new to FOWLR and have only had experience with reefs.

Thank you MT79, since it is going to be over 300 gal of water in the system once we get the sump and skimmer in I dont think heatings going to be much of an issue either. I would rather wait through the summer before I look into a chiller. I also think it is a very good idea to add a couple fans on top of the canopy to help with heat and air exchange.


Btw, your reef looks amazing. How long did it take for that monti cap to grow that large?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roka64
I can't help you with the eels. That trigger will eat inverts, those two stars are not reef safe. The urchins might make it. They are pretty good at defending themselves with their venemous spines. The loin and grouper will eat anything they can fit in their mouths. The chevron will becom agressive toward other tangs. The ray will also eat your inverts.
Sorry Roka, I am just so excited, I forgot the stars aren't reef safe, and Im pretty sure they dont want any corals even though we are trying to get them just to do some zoas for color.

I thought the only way to go as far as a cleanup crew in a FOWLR was urchins and stars. Is their any other way, or just manual cleaning? From what I hear eels are dirty and sloppy it would be nice to have some kind of invert to pick up after them.

So we should rule out only one tang... again we wanted a tang for some kind of algae control in the tank. Will the tang be okay with the other aggressive fish? From what I am learning it might not be aggressive enough to make it

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkie
One thing to keep in mind is that eels love a lot of live rock while rays are best with very little since they need a lot of area on the bottom to lay/bury in the sand etc. It is difficult keeping a good tank that provides both of those for your fish. One solution is placing most of your liverock on one side of the tank. The main problem with this is that it is not a great looking set-up.

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if the clown trigger killed your lionfish. They love to nip away at their fins until they die from stress or injury. Also the same goes for the longspine urchins. I had about 6 which were all eaten by my picasso trigger and puffers. Surprisingly one urchin that hasn't been eaten is a pencil urchin. I can't say it will stay that way in the future!

You also might be overstocking the tank with 9 fish that are all quite large. With the general rule of 5 gallons per fish you are looking at 240g/5gal per fish/9 fish = 5.3 inches per fish. I think every one of those fish will be WELL over 5.3 inches. You might want to consider cutting the fish list in half. I personally would reccomend ditching the trigger, one of the tangs, the ray, and at least one eel. I'm sure it's not news you want to hear, but it's best for ALL of the fish.
Thanks pinkie, we have planned towers and caves for the eels and lots of swimming room for the ray... the tank is 6' long.

Thats surprising the pencil urchin was the one not touched, I would think it would be the first to go... shows how much I know about FOWLR.

The stocking list is just a general list.. they defiantly want about 3 eels, so I was thinking 3 eels and 3 or 4 fish. Would this be okay for the bioload? They do regular cleanings and pwcs every other week. We just put out what they were interested in to see what would be compatable with what. Im not trying to overstock the tank, just trying to add enough interest w/o corals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Innovator
The canopy should not be closed all the way around and at least have an opening in the back with possible air vents built in. You will need additional fans to help keep the air flowing. Your best bet might be to remove the canopy altogether and hang halides from the ceiling? Just an option...

I would stay away from triggers if you would rather have lionfish. I would also nix any thoughts of stingrays. You could do a Red Sea biotope w/Zebrasoma desjardinii (Red Sea Sailfin Tang), Thalassoma rueppellii (Klunzinger's Wrasse), Rhinecanthus assasi (Assasi Trigger), Diodon holacanthus (Long-spined puffer), and Gymnomuraena zebra (Zebra Moray). The Tesselata would be doable if you got a rather small specimen, but are obvious fish eaters whereas the zebra primarily feeds on crustaceans. Either way, make sure you have a secure top.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melosu58
IMO I believe the bioload will be too much with all those inhabitants. I agree with James that the rays would not be a good idea. If you are planning any corals then some of those fish will be a bad idea also.
Innovator, Yes we are defiantly going to add some fans and/or vents to the top of the canopy, and I am going to make them decide on if they want more passive slow moving lions or fast aggressive triggers. Would it make sense to recommend triggers b/c the faster the fish the faster it can get away from an eel of need be?

I found a real nice small tesselata at a lfs by my apt who is in a 200 gal with a zebra moray a panther grouper and a puffer. The owner said that it has been in the tank for over a year with no problems. This was the tesselata i was going to recommend my friends buy.

Melosu, how many fish would you recommend for the bioload, we were originally thinking only 3-4 and just posted the list to see what would be compatable so that every fish in the system would be happier. Take into account that the system once we get the sump up and going is going to be about 300gal of total water. They probably arent going to do corals, we just got excited and wanted to add corals for interest and color.
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Old 04-30-2007, 08:38 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NinaStarr
Take into account that the system once we get the sump up and going is going to be about 300gal of total water.
This wont help for swimming room and reef and invert compatibility. It will help for water volume.
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Old 04-30-2007, 09:08 PM   #9
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Generally 1" of adult fish per 5 gal water volume is recommended. Some people would count the sump volume into that equation, barring any aggression or territorial issues that may result from overcrowding the main w/ incompatible animals. But in the event of a power failure, if the display is overcrowded, it could quickly become an issue( O2 depletion, etc.). I imagine if there is going to be something in place, ie. a generator, etc., to keep the water circulating in the display in the event of power failure it should not be an issue to include sump volume.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NinaStarr
Btw, your reef looks amazing. How long did it take for that monti cap to grow that large?
Thank you very much, I appreciate that. I got the montipora, about a 3-4" frag then, in 12/04. It's a pretty fast grower.

Best of luck w/ the set up.
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Old 04-30-2007, 09:19 PM   #10
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I like snails, nassarius and cerith snails make great additions. In that size tank, you could get quite a few turbo snails also.
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