Are all GAC brands created equal?

[havefun]

This may be a dumb question but I've been bit before so now I'm asking before I buy. Is this a good deal? Four 7oz bags for $6.00 (Marina Activated Carbon )
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...04+113803+2033

Or, is this better - 1.6 liters of Black Magic for $11.00?
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...&N=2004+113803

Or are they both worthless???

[acronym:5d783f24ca="Thanks in Advance"]TIA[/acronym:5d783f24ca]

[cmor1701d]

"Some carbons are activated or washed with phosphoric acid, zinc chloride, or potassium hydroxide. These chemically treated activated carbons are unsuitable for use in the aquarium. These products could leach phosphate (an algae promoter), heavy metals, or alter pH"

If it doesn't say "will not leach phosphates" or words to that effect I would not use it.

This is the one you want....
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...&N=2004+113805

Cheers
Steve

[nsu7]

Steve, you've been a great help before, what is your take on this:

http://www.hdltd.com/products/p_tribase.html

ps~ this was snakes response when I asked if TBPC is treated as mentioned above,

All carbons contain phosphate. It is because they are organic. If the TBPC
was washed in Phosphoric acid, it would pick up more Phosphoates. You are
buying Activated Tri Base Carbon. We do NOT wash with zinc chloride or
potassium hydroxide. It is NOT EPA approved to do so for drinking water.

The Phospate is not a problem because the Right Now Bacteria EATS Phospates
as part of it's RNA. If you set the system up correctly you wil have max 1
[acronym:ae3d7aaba2="milligrams or magnesium, depending on context"]mg[/acronym:ae3d7aaba2]/l of P and O [acronym:ae3d7aaba2="Nitrate"]NO3[/acronym:ae3d7aaba2].

Who ever started this with carbon and leaching did not know their hiney from
a hole in the ground. All carbon base organisms in this world MUST have
phosphate in order for them to survive.

Your phosphate comes from the FOOD which is fed to the animals. The Food
must have phosphate for the fish to survive.

So over feeding will put phosphates in the water.

Originally Posted by nsu7

Steve, you've been a great help before, what is your take on this:

http://www.hdltd.com/products/p_tribase.html

Personally I have never used the product and only rarely seen it discussed, even then without conclusion. From what I can see based on the very limited info on the site, my first impression is that it's a type of carbon zeolite "hybrid" if you will. It's use in conjuction with their bacteria suggests some sort of atractant that would make the bacteria settle on the media. This [acronym:e63a79547b="As far as I know"]AFAIK[/acronym:e63a79547b] is done with an ammonia saturated zeolite. I could not find an MSDS sheet for the product so just a guess at the moment, I am researching it further to understand the "tri based".

ps~ this was snakes response when I asked if TBPC is treated as mentioned above,
........All carbons contain phosphate. It is because they are organic. If the TBPC
was washed in Phosphoric acid, it would pick up more Phosphoates. You are
buying Activated Tri Base Carbon. We do NOT wash with zinc chloride or
potassium hydroxide. It is NOT EPA approved to do so for drinking water.

Actually all carbons are not created equally but most (Lignite based [acronym:e63a79547b="Granular Activated Carbon"]GAC[/acronym:e63a79547b]) can have relatively low/no P content. It's introduction to the aquarium is usually from the dust (ash content) which can easily be rinsed away with [acronym:e63a79547b="Reverse osmosis"]RO[/acronym:e63a79547b]/[acronym:e63a79547b="Deionization"]DI[/acronym:e63a79547b] first.

The Phospate is not a problem because the Right Now Bacteria EATS Phospates
as part of it's RNA. If you set the system up correctly you wil have max 1
[acronym:e63a79547b="milligrams or magnesium, depending on context"]mg[/acronym:e63a79547b]/l of P and O [acronym:e63a79547b="Nitrate"]NO3[/acronym:e63a79547b].

Who ever started this with carbon and leaching did not know their hiney from
a hole in the ground. All carbon base organisms in this world MUST have
phosphate in order for them to survive.

Your phosphate comes from the FOOD which is fed to the animals. The Food
must have phosphate for the fish to survive.

So over feeding will put phosphates in the water.

Quite the rant, why I don't know but there are strains of bacteria that can be added that will bind P in their matrix. It can then be removed with the carbon or skimming. As far as P being needed by all organisms, kind of a stretch but plants and animals do use it to a limited extent, especially in photosythesis. P is however one of the most commonly occuring elements in the food chain and it's introduction can be from many many sources both organic and inorganic. Undetectable P in aquaria (measured with a photometer) has had absolutely no negative effect though. The goal should still and always be to minimize and eliminate it as much as possible.

I have PM'd a friend who is quite proficient in these matters so good or bad I will post his response when/if I receive it.

Cheers
Steve

[nsu7]

Thanks, [acronym:bd081d7e22="By the way"]btw[/acronym:bd081d7e22], snake is the individual who responds to technical questions when you email this carbon manufacturer.

Originally Posted by nsu7

snake is the individual who responds to technical questions when you email this carbon manufacturer.

This was a relpy from a representative of Hiatt Distributors Limited....!?!

Cheers
Steve

Okay here was my question....

Originally Posted by steve-s

Hope you can help me with this as I have not been able to find an MSDS for this product.
http://www.hdltd.com/products/p_tribase.html

From what I can tell it's a hybrid (if you will) of carbon and zeolites?

Do you know about it and what's your take on it?

Someones posed the question on another forum and my first impression was alot of fancy talk but nothing miraculous...simpley a new take on an old idea!

and here is the reply....

Originally Posted by Boomer

Just that Steve, a bunch of fancy talk. Where is their data sheet with numbers, like Iodine #, AD (Apparent Density) , PV (Pore Vol), Molasses #, SA (Surface Aera) etc, etc,...........and what kind of [acronym:84a91a60cd="Granular Activated Carbon"]GAC[/acronym:84a91a60cd] is ???

[acronym:84a91a60cd="Granular Activated Carbon"]GAC[/acronym:84a91a60cd] is base on application. The best application for us would be Lignite based [acronym:84a91a60cd="Granular Activated Carbon"]GAC[/acronym:84a91a60cd]. ......This is why [acronym:84a91a60cd="Granular Activated Carbon"]GAC[/acronym:84a91a60cd] needs data attached to it, such as Molasses #, Iodine # as they tell us what size "particles the [acronym:84a91a60cd="Granular Activated Carbon"]GAC[/acronym:84a91a60cd] will remove. A very high Iodine # is what we do not want that, like Coconut Shell [acronym:84a91a60cd="Granular Activated Carbon"]GAC[/acronym:84a91a60cd]. Too high a Molasses # and we are talking Wood [acronym:84a91a60cd="Granular Activated Carbon"]GAC[/acronym:84a91a60cd]. Combining different [acronym:84a91a60cd="Granular Activated Carbon"]GAC[/acronym:84a91a60cd] with a big range in pores, like the type you are talking about, is nonsense and self defeating, just like having a mixed bag of [acronym:84a91a60cd="Granular Activated Carbon"]GAC[/acronym:84a91a60cd], Wood, Lignite, Coconut. Any [acronym:84a91a60cd="Granular Activated Carbon"]GAC[/acronym:84a91a60cd] tech will tell you this.

Finally, this [acronym:84a91a60cd="Granular Activated Carbon"]GAC[/acronym:84a91a60cd] is a large pellet [acronym:84a91a60cd="Granular Activated Carbon"]GAC[/acronym:84a91a60cd] and such are VPC ( Vapor Phase Carbon) and we are dealing with water, LPC (Liquid Phase Carbon). So all this tell you that VPC [acronym:84a91a60cd="Granular Activated Carbon"]GAC[/acronym:84a91a60cd] is large grain size [acronym:84a91a60cd="Reverse osmosis"]ro[/acronym:84a91a60cd] pellets and LPC is smaller like, no more than say 5 mm.

There have been others asking about another [acronym:84a91a60cd="Granular Activated Carbon"]GAC[/acronym:84a91a60cd], just like this one and sold as HDC (High Density Carbon). Almost any [acronym:84a91a60cd="Granular Activated Carbon"]GAC[/acronym:84a91a60cd] will remove all the stuff on that list

That help...

Cheers
Steve

[nsu7]

Great info. I sent the company another question via their website asking for a MSDS..

Yeah I thought snakes response was very defensive... Not that it is any real consolation but I submitted that question to him directly and not through the companies portal. Very simply my question was,

Does TBPC leech phosphate? Or is it activated or washed with phosphoric
> acid, zinc chloride, or potassium hydroxide?

Deffinately nothing to get deffensive over.

[nsu7]

Snake sent me the MSDS on TBPC, but I don't know if it's complete or what, I don't see anything about surface area or molasses, etc... Perhaps I'm missing it, or it's on a different form. But I'm probably being too forgoing...

MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET

SECTION I -GENERAL INFORMATION

MANUFACTURES NAME
Hiatt Distributors Limited, P.O. Box 7475, Long Beach, California 90807-0475
EMERGENCY PHONE 562 428 9973 FAX 562 428 5592
CHEMICAL NAME AND SYNONYMS: Activated Carbon
TRADE NAME & SYNONYMS: Tri-Base Pelletize Carbon
CHEMICAL FAMILY: Amorphous Carbon with three carbon bases
FORMULA: Carbon atom in a crystallite structure has an infinite molecular weight.
CAS [acronym:288dc2cb0e="Normal Output Fluorescents"]NO[/acronym:288dc2cb0e]: 68647-86-9
1 March 2005

SECTION ll - HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTS

CHEMICAL NAME (Ingredients) [% TLV (Units)]: No Hazardous Ingredients
HAZARDOUS MIXTURES OF OTHER LIQUIDS, SOLIDS OR GASSES [% TLV (Units)] LIQUIDS: Activated carbons that have adsorbed other carbon or non-carbon or non-carbon liquids or gasses may lower or raise the ignition point and must be laboratory checked for ignition point when expended.

SECTION lll - PHYSICAL DATA

BOILING POINT (DEG F): 4200 SPECIFIC GRAVITY (H2O-1): 1.8 - 2.1
VAPOR PRESSURE (mm Hg.) N/A PERCENT VOLATILE BY VOLUME: None
VAPOR DENSITY (AIR=1): N/A EVAPORATION RATE: None
SOLUBILITY IN WATER: Insoluble IGNITION TEMPERATURE: 600 Deg C
APPEARANCE AND ODOR: Odorless, black cylindrical solid


SECTION lV - FIRE AND EXPLOSION HAZARD DATA

FLASH POINT (method used): None
FLAMMABLE LIMITS: Lower Explosive Limit: N/A Upper Explosive Limit: N/A
EXTINGUISHING MEDIA: Use media for Class A fires: Foam, multipurpose dry chemical and water type extinguishes.
SPECIAL FIRE FIGHTING PROCEDURES: None
UNUSUAL FIRE AND EXPLOSION HAZARDS: Provide for the handling of dry flowing solids in grounded equipment to prevent build up of static electric charge especially when explosive dust or vapor mixtures may exist in confined areas. Also provide for pressure relief devices following the principles set forth in the National Fire Protection Association Explosion Preventing Guide NFPS68-1854




SECTION V - HEALTH HAZARD DATA

THRESHOLD LIMIT VALUE: Avoid exposure to dust levels above 15 [acronym:288dc2cb0e="milligrams or magnesium, depending on context"]mg[/acronym:288dc2cb0e] per cubic meter.
EFFECTS OF OVEREXPOSURE: Temporary dryness to mucous membrane causing coughing and minor nose and throat irritation.
EMERGENCY AND FIRST AID PROCEDURES: Wash mouth with water - no other treatment required. Use protective respiratory equipment to avoid inhaling carbon dust.

SECTION VI - REACTIVITY DATA

STABILITY: Inert UNSTABLE STABLE X
CONDITIONS TO AVOID: Activated Carbon is chemically inert.
INCOMPATIBILITY (MATERIALS TO AVOID): None
HAZARDOUS DECOMPOSITION PRODUCTS: None
HAZARDOUS POLYMERIZATION MAY OCCUR WILL NOT OCCUR X

SECTION Vll - SPILL OR LEAK PROCEDURES

STEPS TO BE TAKEN IN CASE MATERIAL IS RELEASED OR SPILLED: Spills can create nuisance dust and housekeeping problems. Vacuuming is best clean up method
WASTE DISPOSAL METHOD: Wet or dry activated carbon is best disposed of by land-fill.

SECTION lll - SPECIAL PROTECTION INFORMATION

RESPIRATORY PROTECTION (SPECIFY TYPE): Respiratory classification table G-2 part 1910.93 (OSHA) Rules and Regulations
VENTILATION LOCAL EXHAUST: Vacuum to control dust
PROTECTIVE GLOVES: None required
EYE PROTECTION: For airborne dust
OTHER PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT: Protective clothing should be worn during handling to protect against airborne dust.

SECTION lX - SPECIAL PRECAUTIONS

PRECAUTIONS TO BE TAKEN IN HANDLING AND STORING: Packaged activated carbon is not resistant to weather or outside storage and requires indoor Type l and Type ll storage facilities.
OTHER PRECAUTIONS: Check oxygen content of atmosphere of any vessel containing activated carbon before allowing entry of personnel.


SECTION X - TRANSPORTATION DATA

PROPER SHIPPING (ARTICLE) NAME: Hiatt’s Tri Pelletized Carbon Non-Regulated.
DOT CLASSIFICATION: NMFC 40560 l DOT MARKING: N/A l DOT PLACARD: N/A
EMERGENCY ACCIDENT PRECAUTIONS AND PROCEDURES:
Contact Hiatt Distributors Limited
Phone 562 428 9973
PRECAUTIONS TO BE TAKEN IN TRANSPORTATION: N/A
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The information contained herein is based on data considered accurate in light of current formulation. However, no warranty is expressed or implied regarding the accuracy of this data or the results to be obtained from the use thereof.

HIATT DISTRIBUTORS LIMITED
P.O. 7475
LONG BEACH, CALIFORNIA, [acronym:288dc2cb0e="Calcium"]CA[/acronym:288dc2cb0e] 90744
562 428 9973
FAX 562 428 5592
www.HDLtd.com