Led lighting

[Lilandoni]

HI EVERYONE
i have a 220 gallon tank no plants just salt water fish and im looking to buy a LED system now i have gotten bad reviews from Marineland Double Bright LED Lighting System

so i was wondering if anyone has any led lighting system that they wanna share there opinion with so i know which one exactly to buy
my tank dimensions are 6ft wide 30" high 24" deep

 

[reefermadness52]

I just retrofitted my stock 36 watt times four bank 50/50 3000 k temp compact flourescent lights with the EVO 1G 120 watt LED system and love it. My tank is around 22 inches deep but only 48 across and is 60 gallons. Here's a link to a short You Tube video I did on the retrofit.

 

[JJ-MIK]

I am using 50w led flood lights purchased off ebay. They are 14000k .. Suspended 8 inches from the top they look pretty good and fish and coral seem to be loving it.

 

[Gregcoyote]

Rapid LED Onyx light. Priced right and state of the art. See my review under Dynamic Aquarium.

 

[oyf709]

Rapid LED Onyx light. Priced right and state of the art. See my review under Dynamic Aquarium.

I disagree with your point of view on the price. It maybe has the quality like AI Sol, but I will need to point out few things that concerns me.

1) I don't see any info on if the light is dimmable or not, not on your post, nor on their site. I would say the light is not dimmable. You can't really find a fixture that doesn't offer dimming options, to have one that can't be dimmed cost over $270 is very very expensive. That being said, if the light can out perform other fixture, I would say $270 for a 6" fixture is still fine. That lead to my second concern.

2) It said on the site the fixture is similar to AI Sol, however, AI Sol is consuming 75W power and onyx consume 90W. That alone tells us it is not efficient as AI, you got more LEDs, running higher power and yet only running at similar light output as AI sol.

3) Base on your PAR reading that compare to the Taotronic:
"Under the middle of the fixture:
750 at the surface
300-400 midway
200-250 at the bottom (18" deep)"

First, you are comparing CREE with Bridgelux or even EPISTAR, for those read a lot about LEDs would know CREE is always approx. 25% more powerful(efficient) than bridgelux and could be even more than EPISTAR or any other brand.

To compare to the fixture, here is a PAR reading for a 90W "Taotronic" unit with CREE @ 3 and half " above water level.
3" 3000(Off the chart so the meter not able to give me the true reading)
6" 2047 (9")
12" 753 (15")
24" 316 (27")
32" 230 (35")
36" 200 (39")
(*) is how far it is from the fixture.

So the PAR you got was 12" AWL
So at 30" it is 200-250 that is about 35 to 40" range PAR reading for the 90W "Taotronic"

To give you an idea on that fixture pricing, it is about $336 with dimming and timer or $399 with controller that can do cloudy and lunar cycle and built-in timer.

4)UV ( anything less than 400nm) is great, but violet/purple are overrated. It doesn't worth the extra $30 to $50 more just because the fixture has "violet"
To back up what I said, you can easily compare a fixture that has no Violet/purple/UV LED diodes like AI SOL White spectrum graph.
AI Sol - Performance

VS

Something has 405nm (by far the closest to true UV in the market) like the Ecotec Radion
Radion ™ XR30w Pro | EcoTech Marine

You can see the actual spike below 400nm almost identical, it contain almost the same amount of spectrum around 390nm. The only thing that actually is different is the spike around 405nm range (simply they added that specific spectrum LED in there)

I am only trying to point out the facts why I think Onyx is actually way over priced with ok performance and no dimming. All data taken are from 3rd party site like AI and ecotec. The only piece data is taken by me is the PAR reading I took with apogee 200 PAR meter. If you find any of my point is not true, you are welcome to speak out as I am willing to listen to others opinion.

 

[Gregcoyote]

Sorry you take offense to this light. not much to dislike IMO, but everyone has an opinion. You sound like you have studied this quite a bit yourself, but I cant agree with many of your comments. $270 is a good price to pay in comparison to fixtures you discuss that are almost three times that price. lets compare apples to apples, i wasn't comparing them to Radions as I personally would not invest that much in a fixture.

It is not dimable, yet.

The extra colors do enhance the look of the coral and that's not a bad thing. I don't believe it will greatly effect growth, maybe not at all, but making my pride mother colonies look good is pleasing and worth a couple of extra bucks.See Coral Magazine and SanJays tests with LEDs. I have also seen some big reefs done lately using some accent color. All white and royal blue LEDs look pretty blue/white and is a bit flat looking to me when comparing fixtures side by side. The Onyx looks more like my old MH/actinic system, which also grew coral like a banshee, but ran my chiller all th time. Not sure about the UV violet LEDs, but have an open mind. Using the Crees and having fewer emitters also enhances the shimmer effect over a panel with 50 emitters. I am sure you can agree with that.

The Al Sols I have seen were not impressive but nice and radions are dramatically overpriced, IMO.

I was comparing standard 120 watt Chinese panels (usually $150-180) as seen sold by everybody on EBay, even Taotronics. Have not used their new dimmable fixture. It looks much nicer but more expensive. In three years with 8 fixtures I have lost one panel and two drivers. That's not good odds with these low cost panels.

Lenses have much effect as well as the voltage the emitters are driven at when it comes to PAR generated and how deep. Certainly different brands of LEDs have different efficiencies. So I wasn't surprised by the efficiency increase either.
When I do my big reef, which is 38" deep I will do some careful PAR measurements at deeper levels.

Cloud cover effects and storms don't mean anything to me. And I prefer if it doesn't use a proprietary controller when they do produce a dimable version, reefers using advanced lighting probably have a controller. Otherwise timers are cheap for fixtures that don't have them built in.

I am holding out for the controllable fixtures for the main reef, but my frag system could care less about dimming lights.

I stand by my claim that they are a good value fixture that performs well and makes my coral look nice. To me they were worth the extra $100. Time will tell as to how they grow coral.

My Apogee 200 pegged right under the LEDs too, so what? Out of water readings are always off the chart. Anyway, good discussion.

 

[oyf709]

no one take offended, people that know me or read my post would understand that I post most of comment base on facts and not bias in any way.

Color doesn't get enhance by any special spectrum, the only thing that work is the true UV which force coral produce colorful pigments.

All other spectrum can barely get down to the ocean so they don't serve any purpose than eye candies. However, "full spectrum" does not need add specific red green or orange color LED diodes. You can actually can achieve it by using warm white and NW.

 

[Gregcoyote]

Just commenting on what my eyes perceive. The warm colored LEDs simply makes the coral look better.

I was a underwater photographer for years. You are correct, the warmer colors are filtered out to any coral that live much more than 10-20' down, but some corals live shallower than that and are exposed to these other radiations. They can be quite colorful as a result. As a photographer, I learned to tote huge lights with me to photograph the corals. There is something to be said about the value of displaying a corals beauty to its full effect as well as feed its algae. That's where a broader spectrum LED has value IMO.

 

[oyf709]

I fail to see your point. To me the basic thing to start is health of the coral, then the look of the tank. Onyx can do a fine job but with no dimming, it just simply doesn't justify the cost. Like I said, thru out the post I didn't push any of my own product therefore my purpose was not to talk down other product while I am promoting my own. What I provided is just the facts and data from others not myself. People are welcome to make their choice base on the info I provided. I just can't agree on calling the fixture well priced when its clearly not. $270 without the most important feature of LED, dimming, can simply tell you rapidled made the fixture for only one purpose which is simply trying to get a share of the pie without paying too much to develop their own controller. I have nothing against them personally, in fact, I think they provide the best DYI kit out there. That is also why I know that they are more knowledge than this which providing "half complete" fixture. How are you going to convince others that dimming is not needed while most of their kit comes with dimming?

 

[jeffaquarius]

Great discussion of both very knowledgeable people about the most debatable topics in reef keeping. I would say both sides have strong points. After a year of my aquarium hobby, I have noted that there are people who just put more emphasis on the best process in growing corals and fish in the aquarium. While there are others who extend the fun by spending extras simulating the conditions of the real reef. I am inclined to the later. After all, the purpose of the hobby is to give comfort and entertainment to everyone.

 

[JJ-MIK]

Corals can and will thrive under any lighting conditions.... One of the top tanks in the USA is run under only 6500k lights..

 

[jeffaquarius]

Corals can and will thrive under any lighting conditions.... One of the top tanks in the USA is run under only 6500k lights..

I strongly disagree. 6500k lights is only for the photosynthesis of plants. It has to be supplemented with actinic blue for corals. Unless one is dealing with corals who only require minimum of lights such as candy cane yes they will flourish.

 

[JJ-MIK]

Ill have to look for the book and author .. They found the best ten reef aquariums in the states. And there number one tank was using 6500k lights. I'm sure it had some actinics on it. But it goes to show that high powered 10 to 20000k daylights is not really a must like everyone says to be.. This tank was gorgeous!! My opinion. And it's just my opinion.. I'm learning that spending 2000$ on lights is just crazy.. Yes it would be nice to have them... I looked at a light that simulated lightning.. Nice. But for 500 per light and needing 3 or 4 of them.. Ill pass. You can read in other forums that everyone does something different.. So IMO.. The need for dimmable LEDs. Is a want. Not a need.. .. I have been reading forums and opinions for 8 months straight now. And learning daily.. But there are 3000 ways to do one thing. And most all have the same effect.. Not trying to stir any pots.. Just stating my opinion. It's Friday! Lol no need for bad moods.

 

[Gregcoyote]

Dimming is not necessary, it is nice. Cloud cover and lightening effects are not for me, they are a waste of money IMO. Basic dimming will be available in the Onyx later this spring. Might go that route if it doesn't add much to the price, nice for acclimating coral, but that's all.

6500k generates a lot of PAR. The poster that said that is right, corals and algae grow great under it. I used 6500k and magenta LEDs in my algae scrubber.

Our LFS sells Onyx and Al Sol and the Onyx outsells them 10 to 1. Something there. Guess that high price doesn't affect those buyers.

If all you wanted to do was grow coral and didn't care if it tended towards mostly brown, you would use common 6500k floodlights. Or maybe daylight, but I want to see the colors, so a more complex spectrum is needed IMO.

 

[Gregcoyote]

I strongly disagree. 6500k lights is only for the photosynthesis of plants. It has to be supplemented with actinic blue for corals. Unless one is dealing with corals who only require minimum of lights such as candy cane yes they will flourish.

So what's the algae in the tissues of coral? Plants. Actinic blue is not a necessary wavelength to the health of any coral. It is a supplement and makes it look nicer.

Lighten up some, your reaction to my recommendation read to sound condescending. I can forward reams of literature that will explain how Zooxanthellae algae responds to various wavelengths, but don't want to further an argument. Look it up. Everybody has an opinion and that's what we strive to share here, but attacking a simple claim that there is value in this light is a waste of time.

 

[oyf709]

That is not true when you said dimming is not needed. The feature is not a gimmick like cloudy or storm or disco effect. It simply the only way to acclimate corals from T5/MH. If you don't get dimmer, then you will need to be creative like someone here that add a stack of acrylic sheets on top of their tank and removing 1 or 2 sheets every few days. or risk of losing coral due to change of light intensity.

Again, like I mentioned it is really hard to convince others that dimmer is not needed when rapid LED promote dimming kits for most of their DYI kits.
Everything I said are base on information and observation from others, not me. I understand personal experience and personal preference are important. However, those can be different from person to person. That is the only reason why I list information base on "official" sites and links. Also all the spec I used are from them directly.

You might not like how AI Sol's performance and the "look", but that is a personal preference. When it comes to specs, u should only go by what each these companies are listed and provided simply that not everyone able to get a PAR meter, not to mention the spectrometer to compare each light and it is not needed anyways.


EDIT: no one here attacking any claims, people come on threads searching for answers, provide them information from different point of view is needed. When you make a statement on ceratin things, people would question it and also can oppose to what you are saying. If you want to make a statement on things like coral doesn't need blue spectrum to be healthy, the only way to back up that is with a valid source. I would love to know more about it, so next time when I try to help one of my customers, I won't provide them wrong information. I don't see how you take these questions and comments as personal atk.

 

[JJ-MIK]

There are millions of ways to do one thing.. Some people slowly acclimate to light. And some can just throw them straight into high light. I know a guy that does all the "don't do's".. And has never had an issue in 5 years.. No water changes. No ro top off water. Water temp acclimation only.. Corals go straight to top if the tank.. And the only fish he has ever list was either by bigger fish hungry. Or jumps out of the tank.. This entire hobby is a gamble from what I'm learning..

 

[Gregcoyote]

That is not true when you said dimming is not needed. The feature is not a gimmick like cloudy or storm or disco effect. It simply the only way to acclimate corals from T5/MH. If you don't get dimmer, then you will need to be creative like someone here that add a stack of acrylic sheets on top of their tank and removing 1 or 2 sheets every few days. or risk of losing coral due to change of light intensity.

Again, like I mentioned it is really hard to convince others that dimmer is not needed when rapid LED promote dimming kits for most of their DYI kits.
Everything I said are base on information and observation from others, not me. I understand personal experience and personal preference are important. However, those can be different from person to person. That is the only reason why I list information base on "official" sites and links. Also all the spec I used are from them directly.

You might not like how AI Sol's performance and the "look", but that is a personal preference. When it comes to specs, u should only go by what each these companies are listed and provided simply that not everyone able to get a PAR meter, not to mention the spectrometer to compare each light and it is not needed anyways.

Dimming a whole reef, or section of reef to acclimate the addition of one coral is not practical and can cause many issues. If that is your primary reason for dimming, it can be replaced with a sheet of typing paper over the new coral, leaving the rest of the reef alone. But again, my point is dimming is a nice "feature" but the coral could care less. It is not necessary to good coral growth and viewing. As I said before, Rapid is adding dimming to this fixture for those that want it. I don't know what you mean by them "promoting" dimming, but will take your word on that.

It's the price of Al Sols and Radions that I don't like. Charging a premium just because it has a variable driver in it is not where I want to be.

Do a google search "do corals need actinic light?" you will see a lot of info as to what actinic wavelengths are good for. But they are not generally mandatory for coral growth. Here is an excellent thread on the topic: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1918382

And it's the tone of your first post that rilled me up, sorry.

 

[JJ-MIK]

There is a light out there I would love to have.. It simulates actual days.. Sunrise to sunset even with thunder storms.. Be really sweet!! But there very expensive and need many lights.. To much money for my taste..

 

[Gregcoyote]

There is a light out there I would love to have.. It simulates actual days.. Sunrise to sunset even with thunder storms.. Be really sweet!! But there very expensive and need many lights.. To much money for my taste..

All that is certainly cool and if I had a bigger budget I might want something like that as well, but I am trying to grow corals and am less worried about anything but growth and color. Still cool though.

As far as the hobby being a gamble, yes there is some of that, but reefkeeping is pretty straight forward biology. Where there is a lot not known, there is a lot that is known. The fact that many of us post for years is to try to distribute basic information, that if anyone will listen to, makes your chances of success multiply many fold. We have all made some of the same mistakes. It is forums like this that can help you avoid those mistakes. The rest is simply opinions.