new life spectrum

[Fishguy2727]

I looked into that article again, especially the references, and was suprised. One of the articles actually states right in the abstract that allicin (extract from garlic) actually killed ich.

Here are his refrences and my responses to them:

Colorni, Angelo, Rami Avtalion, Wayne Knibb, Evelyn Berger, Barbara Colorni, & Bracha Timan. 1998. "Histopathology of sea bass (Dicentrarchus labrax) experimentally infected with Mycobacterium marinum and treated with streptomycin and garlic (Allium sativum) extract." Aquaculture 160(1998)1-17.
-This study only shows that Mycobacterium marinum is not cured by allicin. This does not apply to garlic’s anti-parasitic properties since this is a bacteria.

Ashdown, Denise & Gary Violetta. 2004. "Using Garlic as an Appetite Stimulant in Sand Tiger Sharks (Carcharias taurus)." Drum & Croaker, January 2004, Volume 35, pages 59-63.
-This study discusses garlic’s use as an appetite stimulant, which doesn’t speak to its anti-parasitic properties.

Buchmann, K., P. B. Jensen, & K. D. Kruse. 2003. "Effects of Sodium Percarbonate and Garlic Extract on Ichthyophthirius multifiliis Theronts and Tomocysts: In Vitro Experiments." North American Journal of Aquaculture, Volume 65, Number 1, pages 21-24, 2003.
Abstract excerpt:
“Garlic extract had no effect in low amounts (30 mg/L), but at high concentrations (117 and 570 mg/L) it killed the tomocysts within 24 h.”
-This article shows that garlic can actually kill Ich tomocysts, although more garlic is required to be effective compared to malachite green.

Colorni, Angelo & Peter Burgess. 1997. "Cryptocaryon irritans Brown 1951, the cause of 'white spot disease' in marine fish: an update." Aquarium Sciences and Conservation, volume 1, pages 217-238.
-This article’s abstract and introduction did not mention garlic.

Fairfield, Terry. 1996. "Garlic & Your Aquarium: A Preliminary report on Allium sativum and fishkeeping." Aquarium Fish Magazine, January 1996, pages 79-83.
-This is not primary scientific research, and therefore scientifically cannot be considered as proof/disproof or support/lack of support of anything.

 

[Fishguy2727]

For those interested in the actual scientific studies here are my references for the article I wrote that was published in the April 2011 issue if Aquarium Fish International magazine.

Ankri, S., and D. Mirelman. 2001. “Antimicrobial properties of allicin from garlic.” Microbes and Infection 2:125-129

Boxaspen, K., and J.C. Holm. 1992. “New biocides used against sea lice compared to organo-phosphorous compounds.” European Aquaculture Society

Coppi, A., M. Cabinian, D. Mirelman, and P. Sinnis. 2006. “Antimalarial Activity of Allicin, a Biologically Active Compound from Garlic Cloves.” Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy 5:1731-1737

D.L.N. 1998. “Allicin, one of the active principles of garlic, inhibits the growth of protozoan parasites.” Chemtech 4:45

Holden, C. 1997. “Fighting Parasites With Garlic.” Science. 5338:581

Soko, C. K., and D.E. Barker. 2004. “Efficacy of crushed garlic and lemon juice as bio-product treatments for Ichthyophthirius multifiliis (‘ich’) infections among juvenile Nile tilapia, Oreochromis niloticus.” Aquaculture Association of Canada 9:108-110

 

[doogle]

you could use the other stuff and mix it together for feeding, like when changing foods you should mix it together gradually before you start to feed them exclusively the new product.

 

[doogle]

so if you dont have ich or other paresites, why use garlic, especially with other meds that work? it sounds more like a preventative

 

[fishguy1]

My picky fish are just picky.

There's nothing they will reliably eat. One day they'll take Hikary micro wafers, the next day they spit them out. Same for NLS Thera + A, and Ocean Nutrition food which IMO is also very good. I have to keep quite the cleanup crew because I never know when they're going to pass on what I'm feeding them.

Honestly, I think this is because you are feeding too many kinds of food. People make that mistake with dogs - feed them all sorts of crap and then wonder why they won't eat their dog food. I used to work with someone who cooked meals for her dog, because it wouldn't eat dog food. How ridiculous. That dog would have scarfed down the dog food if it was hungry enough. Just like dogs, fish will eat when they are hungry enough. Granted, some fish will starve to death rather than eat food they don't want, but that's rare.

Chances are if you only fed them one kind of STAPLE food, they would eagerly eat it every time you fed them.



Doogle - I believe in prevention. Regardless of whether garlic kills parasites, it boosts the immune system.

 

[doogle]

so do i... any way i have noticed an increase in color, size, and general liveliness, sice i have been feeding a variety. i look at the ingredients in my fish food, and get them stuff that says whole halibut, krill or whatever else, and dont buy the crap that is full of meal,filler, or other unnatural by-products,hat would not be in a fish's diet naturally. here is a example -omega one-super veggie=Whole kelp,Spirulina,Whole Salmon,Halibut,seafood mix((krill,Whole Herring,and shrimp))wheat flour,wheat gluten,lecithin, blah, blah,vitamins, niacin, and a preservative...most of these are typical. i dont like seeing fish meal, and stuff like that, but in the real world where fish are eating algae, other fish, and plants they are not eating the stuff we buy, and they get bigger and more colorful and lively.i try to replicate a natural diet, but to be fair it can be difficult, i want the best i can get. science has come a long way, and a long way from what is natural, too.

 

[mudraker]

I too use Omega - One a lot with great results.

I also agree with Melosu and her observation 100 %.

 

[doogle]

also when i said variety, i mean more freeze-dried and frozen foods, and seaweed,spirulina, krill,spinach, romaine,zuchini,shrimp.not just flakes and pellets...

 

[doogle]

i could add garlic cloves to food and get the same results. kordon's ich attack is a herbal medicant,(smells like garlic, hmm) and you have to triple the dose and frequency to kill the ich...and that stuff isny cheap, where jungles ick 2 for sensitive fish works and wont stain everything(wayyyyyy cheaper),a clove of garlic or buy expensive scientificly endorsed food.not saying that it isnt worth it, you usually get what you pay for...but not always

 

[Fishguy2727]

In most of NLS's foods the garlic is just an attractant (and very effective). When I was running the fish shop we had very few issues getting almost anything to eat pellets. I think the only one that didn't was a gar that was sold pretty quickly. Even the freshwater stingrays would take to it within days.

With the Thera+A it is enough to kill parasites, but its main benefit is preventative. Prevention is always the goal. Time after time people feeding it have a significantly lower frequency of ANY illnesses in any of their fish. This obviously MUST go along with high water quality.

NLS is not an expensive, scientifically endorsed food. The garlic articles are a separate issue (mainly to show the facts when people argue so intensely against it). I have seen it cure parasites a couple times, but it isn't a magical chemical free med or anything. It is more expensive per weight, but because of the quality of the food you don't have to feed as much (as mentioned previously by someone else). I think you would break even if not save a little by feeding it (depending on the size container you buy and where you get it).

I want to clarify that it is not the garlic that makes NLS above and beyond IME. The overall nutrition is where it needs to be. The goal of any diet is complete and balanced nutrition. NLS does this. IMO mixing a hodge-podge of foods is bound to not achieve this. Unless you are an animal nutritionist it is just guesswork. I want more than guesswork to keep my fish thriving for their full potential.

Again, try it. Without experiencing it you can't see what it can really do for your fish.

 

[doogle]

i want to,it sounds great. just waiting to think of what else i need, so shipping a CAN of fish food is worth the postage costs. i have seen other foods that where close to the same ingrediants.i I still know my fish have grown in size,better coloring,and are livelier using what i do, i know they are healthy and paresite prevention is a priority...i would HATE to have anything happen to them...there is a debate about ich always being in your tank, i think it needs to be intraduced.... did i mention my red zebra is pregnant again, her fry are 1.1/4'' and shes holding again!

 

[Fishguy2727]

There are always pathogens in the tank. For them to develop into a disease there has to be a stressor. If the fish become stressed for some reason (aggression, temp change, low water quality, poor nutrition, etc.) then whatever pathogens are present have a chance to infect. You will never have a sterile environment, and you don't want it. Whether it is ich, a bacteria, fungi, virus, etc. something will infect them. The better thing to focus on is preventing the stress.

At a glance the ingredients may look similar, but there are important differences. If you read through NLS's website he discusses fat levels and how feeding a fat level over about 5% all the time will likely lead to fatty deposits and early death. IMO nutrition is the most under-appreciated aspect of pet care, including in fishkeeping. Although the immediate results of any food may be okay, or even very good, the real issue that we have to look at now is long term health. We have good foods that provide great short term nutrition, but for fish to truly thrive long term we have to be much pickier. Long term the exact percentages of nutrients, along with the exact micronutrients (all those ingredients you wouldn't recognize if they were laid on a table in front of you) are vital.

When fish die we don't do necropsies. In most cases, unless the death was immediately preceded by a major stressor (like very cold water accidentally used for a water change) or obvious disease (like ich, fungus, etc.) most aquarists blame it on old age or something like that. In truth I think that effectively no fish die of old age. Granted there are some likely exceptions, but effectively all fish die of something we did wrong. Using salt all the time in freshwater can damage the kidneys. Low water quality, incorrect parameters (like keeping mbunas in a pH of 6.0) will cause problems. But we never find out about these things because all we see is a fish start to go down and then die.

At this point in the hobby we have the ability to truly start focusing on long term thrivability. Ideal water quality and the absolutely best, uncompromising nutrition are the two most important things to do this.

 

[doogle]

do they have a fry food in the n.l.s. lineup?

 

[Fishguy2727]

They have a few 0.5mm foods. They also recently came out with a micro particles formula for corals and filter feeders. It is 100-300 microns. That could work for some fry. Golden Pearls are not a NLS food but are an excellent alternative to culturing your own foods for fry. They are used for cories, rainbows, and many other fish fry.

 

[doogle]

im gonna see what i can find online

 

[fishguy1]

Yes, I have NLS fry food (powder), as well as a growth formula for developing fry (0.5 mm).


As far as the price is concerned, I can't believe that anyone would even raise that as an issue. While it may cost 2 or 3 times some other food, it's STILL a cheap item. I mean, if you can't afford to spend $15 on a 300 gram jar that will last most people 3 or 4 months (or more, depending on how many tanks you have), then perhaps this is not the hobby for you.

 

[doogle]

i cant believe it either

 

[doogle]

thats about 10-11oz, that might last me a month and a half or two. yes that is not a bad price, someone said more than that, not to mention shipping costs.maybe this hobby isnt for you, why would you even say that? nothing good to say then dont say it, you dont have to waste your time

 

[Fishguy2727]

If you have to get it shipped online it isn't too bad. Many places include shipping, or its only a few bucks. Like I said, cost wise it should not be effectively any more than any other food out there, especially when you take into account how long it lasts.

I do think that some people make too much of an issue with cost. I see people refusing to pay for aquarium sand that costs about the same as gravel, instead they buy a 50# of sand that isn't made for aquariums for $5. I see people trying to buy $40 fixtures at home depot instead of investing in a proper light fixture. This is a hobby. IMO by definition that means it is something we enjoy that takes up our spare time and money. I do think that if cost is such an issue this may not be the right hobby for you. If you got into fishkeeping to save money you made a mistake.

 

[doogle]

ya but some people like fancy looking stands(like me) some dont care. i have expensive t5's, some buy shop lights.that is a different thread. and if you want something that works there are always more ways to do something.