Python question / debate

[pkillur]

Howdy all,

MY lfs guy chastised me the other day when I mentioned getting a python. His logic was that putting untreated water with chloramines (we have them) inside the tank and waiting for the prime to circulate it was a bad idea and would have negative effects in the long run. He suggested replacing a pump in my sump (something I've been considering) and using my old unsteady pump inside a rolling trashcan with pre-treated, pre-circulated water. This way the water that gets pumped in won't get stuck in funky spots with little circulation until the salts in Prime get to it.

Thoughts?



><PK>

 

[Ky'smommy]

i would say its fine. many people use prime and a python. they use the prime first and then puts the water in. and i dont think many have had any problems.
some people just throw the water in no questions.
im not sure much on the python. but i dont think its much a problem, you put prime in a buck and pour in the bucket it gets mixed up as much as it would with they python.

 

[JustOneMore20]

I've had my python for a year and have been doing water changes in my tanks the same way since then. Of all the 3 tanks, I've never had any problems from putting the water and the dechlor in the tank at the same time. I don't use prime, I use AquaSafe, but it really doesn't matter the brand. I've never had any deaths from doing it this way and I believe alot of people do it this way.

Oh and most people treat for the whole tank, but since AquaSafe takes more than prime, I treat for the amount I took out (50%). I'll be getting some Prime soon though, so I may just treat for the whole tank.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[joannde]

Its an interesting question and one I've personally thought about. So my theory to reduce the risks is to put the Prime in as soon as I turn the Python on for my fill - I put it in exactly where the tube is figuring that I have enough circulation from the incoming water to get the Prime distributed.

And I too treat for the whole tank first - Prime only appears to be more expensive (per ounce) but given the smaller amount needed its a BARGAIN.

My only complaint about the Python is that it doesn't have as much "suction" during the clean as the "old fashioned" syphons so I'm going to get a 1" tube for it and see if that improves the situation.

EDIT - forgot to add - in the past week I've had to do 50% daily water changes because my biofilter died after antibiotic treatments. I would have torn the hair out of my head if it weren't for the Python. Plus, if there were going to be an issue with chloramines (my town uses them also) then I'm betting it would have certainly shown up as a problem if the Prime first then Python refill were unsafe

 

[Tostada]

I'd say it makes some sense. I mean, your chlorine/chloramine eventually goes away on its own. The reason you're treating it is to reduce the amount of time your fish spend in it before it goes away. If you totally treat it before even adding it, that's obviously the best thing. The question is whether or not that's necessary, and most people here seem to agree that it isn't.

It would be nice to be able to quantify the amount of time it takes for the water treatment to work and what is a safe exposure for your fish, but that's so dependant on all kinds of variables like circulation, how senative the specific fish are, and who knows what else.

If you knew exactly how much chlorine was in your water, exactly how long it took to dissipate (or gas out, or whatever you call it), and exactly how much was safe to your fish, you could just ignore water treatments and use a python to add the water back in stages.

What you're getting here is advice from people who knows what works for them. Any broad comments like "pythons are bad" are always going to be suspect.

 

[JRagg]

So everyone out there who is using a python is doing it wrong? The proof is in the pudding. How many reports have you heard of fish dying from python usage?

I would have just smiled and nodded at the fish store guy and then gone and picked up the python anyways. I'm not going to push a "trashcan full of water" around my house. That is just ridiculous.

 

[pkillur]

So everyone out there who is using a python is doing it wrong? The proof is in the pudding. How many reports have you heard of fish dying from python usage?

I would have just smiled and nodded at the fish store guy and then gone and picked up the python anyways. I'm not going to push a "trashcan full of water" around my house. That is just ridiculous.

Just to play devil's advocate, the reason he said he didn't want to recommend them is because he started using one a year ago on his Discus tank and like 4 of his 12 discii died. Food for thought, and I know Discus can be finicky, but this dude's been in the fish business for like 20 years, so I'm sure he's not a moron (However, that's not to say that he didn't accidentally do something stupid, like not rinse out his python before getting it or something...)

 

[fish_4_all]

Well just to throw my two cents in. My LFS, bless them or hate them, uses a python every time they change water and then reverse and put water right back in the tanks from the tap. Then they treat it. I will admit they do not have a lot of good luck with new fish shipments but the fish they have for a while are never sick and always look healthy. It isn't their fault it takes 2 extra days to get most shipments. Most shipped on Friday and recieved Tuesday. They have done this for 15 years and I have never heard of a fish dying that they have had for more than 3 months. Oh, and they use undergravel filters to boot. They must be doing something right.

 

[pkillur]

I'd say it makes some sense. I mean, your chlorine/chloramine eventually goes away on its own. The reason you're treating it is to reduce the amount of time your fish spend in it before it goes away. If you totally treat it before even adding it, that's obviously the best thing. The question is whether or not that's necessary, and most people here seem to agree that it isn't.

It would be nice to be able to quantify the amount of time it takes for the water treatment to work and what is a safe exposure for your fish, but that's so dependant on all kinds of variables like circulation, how senative the specific fish are, and who knows what else.

If you knew exactly how much chlorine was in your water, exactly how long it took to dissipate (or gas out, or whatever you call it), and exactly how much was safe to your fish, you could just ignore water treatments and use a python to add the water back in stages.

What you're getting here is advice from people who knows what works for them. Any broad comments like "pythons are bad" are always going to be suspect.

Yeah. So, in theory I have a 360 gph pump on my Fluval 404 with max head of 6 ft, so probably the flow is cut in half for the threeish feet it goes up and into my tank. So, at 180 gph (in a perfect world) it takes 25 minutes to disolve all the chloramines. This is all in a perfect world with perfect flow, etc though. I suppose it's not too bad...

 

[Zagz]

I have been using the python adding prime as I first add water back into the tank for a year. I also have discus, German Blue Rams, african cichlids, neons, guppies, mollies, angelfish and a bunch of others. I have never lost a fish from my water changing methods.

 

[Jchillin]

I have chloramines in my tap water. I use AquaPlus to treat the tank as the python is filling. I have tried doing this at the beginning of fill and at the end and there hasn't been a negative effect at all.

There are aquarists out there who hold on to established methods no matter whether new methods work or not. I have associates that use corner and box filters on large tanks and they constantly ask why I wasted money on a canister.

I will say that your LFS person's statement that the python may not work is not exactly accurate. One wrong move can be disastrous.

 

[dont155]

For the Python syphoning issue, I discovered quite by accident that I could in fact, increase the suction a bit. The "problem" was literally at the tap. The part that goes on the water spicket isn't supposed to be "rotatable". That is, when mounted, the part should not easily rotate to accomodate the direction the hose is coming from. If it does, then its loose and is leaking air which, of course, reduces the suction. You need to tighten it up so it doesn't spin. Once I got that, I was able to get some good gravel agitation going. Still the nozzel is to big to fit in some areas of the tank without moving plants and decorations.

 

[Tostada]

A little OT, but I think it's interesting that water treatments just have a standard dose. I would assume that this is a worst-case scenario. After all, some cities have to have more chlorine than others, and these guys are in the business of selling product.

Perhaps I'll do some tests to see exactly how much it actually takes with my water. I'd be surprised if it was actually more than 1/2 the recommendation.

 

[ringfinger]

I have been using the python for over a year now, always adding half the dosage at the beginning of the fill and half on completion. Haven't noticed any negative effects.

 

[Tolak]

I don't use a python, but I do have 2 separate hoses, 1 for draining my 35 gallon can I siphon into, and 1 for filling. This way I can fill & drain 2 tanks at once. I have never had a problem with adding Prime before, during, or after filling.

I've tried 50% wc's without adding dechlor for a couple of hours on a 20 gallon, trying to see if the chlorine & chloramine would have any affect on the fish or bio filtration. The 40 dime size angels were fine, and it had no affect on the bio filtration. I got tired of keeping an eye on the tank after 2 hours. There has been a bit of an experiment/debate on another forum as to weather dechlor is actually necessary in a mature tank, I could post a link if forum rules allow this

My main concern with a python is cross contamination between tanks. You are letting the dirty water from one tank come in contact with the clean water when filling another. This is the main reason I use separate drain hoses for my tanks, and don't drill them & go with a central filtration system.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

I only use Prime, and a Python here. You can go the extra mile and treat the water first, but if you have a large tank, or many tanks, it's more work than it's worth. I could see myself trying to do the trash can thing with 6 tanks, lol. No way I'm doing that when the Python does just fine. And no ill-effects to any fish, including my GBR's.

 

[SkullJug]

I always mix my water first but that's because I got fairly lucky on house design. My tanks are all in the Den which is actually mostly underground. The tap outside also has an external power point for a security light. I have a garbage bin which I can fill and even sitting on the ground it is higher then the tank. When I fill it I leave the hose in it (So it stays full off water. Treat it and let a powerhead with venturi pump it for about an hour. Once the tank is siphoned I just unclip the house from the tap and pass it through the window into the tank. The siphon starts itself and off it goes.

It's a great system and needs the minumim of effort. That being said, I don't think it's neccesary and pythons sounds like they work just fine, the only problem would be small amounts of chlorine still getting into your biofilter but this would probably be very minor.

I am, however, a firm believer that if you can do 10 things 5% better, your tank will be much, much better.

 

[bosk1]

My main concern with a python is cross contamination between tanks. You are letting the dirty water from one tank come in contact with the clean water when filling another. This is the main reason I use separate drain hoses for my tanks, and don't drill them & go with a central filtration system.

Unless you have drastically different water conditions in your two tanks, why would this be an issue?

There has been a bit of an experiment/debate on another forum as to weather dechlor is actually necessary in a mature tank...

What? Every time you are adding water, you are adding clorine and chloramines (assuming they are in your local water system, which they are in most places). Maturity of the tank has nothing to do with it.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

My main concern with a python is cross contamination between tanks. You are letting the dirty water from one tank come in contact with the clean water when filling another. This is the main reason I use separate drain hoses for my tanks, and don't drill them & go with a central filtration system.

Unless you have drastically different water conditions in your two tanks, why would this be an issue?

There has been a bit of an experiment/debate on another forum as to weather dechlor is actually necessary in a mature tank...

What? Every time you are adding water, you are adding clorine and chloramines (assuming they are in your local water system, which they are in most places). Maturity of the tank has nothing to do with it.

Now how would you cross-contaminate if the last thing you did with the first tank is fill it up. So that means, the water currently in the hose is tap water, correct? And if worried about the gravel vac, can always rinse it off before doing the next tank. So I agree with bosk that it's not an issue.

 

[bosk1]

I agree with bosk

Well, see, but that's just because you're brilliant.