RO/DI Advice

[zer0signal]

Guys,

I am contemplating on buying an RO/DI system, my city water is very hard 179GH, and has a high PH of 7.8. My LFS sells RO Water for $0.75 a gallon, but I can buy a system that i can quickly take down and setup for $129. The reason I am looking at this is because I really wanted German Rams (its what I have always wanted), and I know they're very sensitive to water conditions, plus it should be healthier for the other fish too. I am in the process of setting up my 36 Gallon, and now would be a good time to set this up before I really start adding stock to the tank. What are your opinions on if I should do this or not.

 

[zer0signal]

My idea is to not use 100% pure throughout the tank, but to cut it 50/50 50 Tap, and 50 RO.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I did this, 50:50 cut for several years. (Just test the mix beforehand)

Normal water changes (15-30%) should present no problems.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f60/ro-questions-324994.html
(Other RO info)

 

[zer0signal]

I did this, 50:50 cut for several years. (Just test the mix beforehand)

Normal water changes (15-30%) should present no problems.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f60/ro-questions-324994.html
(Other RO info)

Awesome, well I just placed my order from Premium RODI System - Buckeye Hydro the people there were awesome they explained all the setups, and the custom options available if you want to upgrade.


So with that, since I plan to do a 50/50 mix, once i test my mix (outside of the tank) and the readings show fine. Would i just drain 50% from the tank and replenish the drain w/ just pure RO/DI water? Then during the following week, when I drain 30% do a 50/50
mix TAP/RODI?

 

[J.Mcpeak]

NO! (Hold on!)

Add the new mix and allow the water changes to effect "THE" change.
It will get there just by adding the new 50:50 mix.

A 50% addition of pure RO/(DI) will be a significant change in water parameters!

If you want, you can do the 30% everyday for a week but, it will happen anyway over time.

Even the 50:50 cut will be vastly different!
(It'll be about 50% less than the source water across the range of tests)

 

[zer0signal]

NO! (Hold on!)

Add the new mix and allow the water changes to effect "THE" change.
It will get there just by adding the new 50:50 mix.

A 50% addition of pure RO/(DI) will be a significant change in water parameters!

If you want, you can do the 30% everyday for a week but, it will happen anyway over time.

Even the 50:50 cut will be vastly different!
(It'll be about 50% less than the source water across the range of tests)

Here is what I have been doing (still waiting on RO Unit Arrival), I have been testing my TAP 7.4 and Tank Water 8.0. Currently I am finding that I am around 8.0PH 10GH 6KH after 60mins of aerating the water from Tap 5Gallons (Same parms after 24hrs, and it matches my tanks).

So, with knowing that and how long it takes for my tap to settle after its been released into a 5 gallon bucket (presuming high pressure due to cold weather 7.4->8.0 PH in 60mins). I plan to take 2 Gallon of Tap and 2 Gallon of R/O put them in a 5 Gallon bucket, and then test all parms, ill give it 60mins and test again. If I am not satisifed, ill adjust up or down w/ RO (maybe only 60/40RO 70/30 etc...)

IF the parms are within reasonable range, I see no reason to just add the 50% (if thats the mix i settle on) right now as there is no live stock in this tank (moved my only fish in there to the QT tank till i get this resolved, then obvious Slow Drip Acclimation once I hash this all out).

Do you agree?

If halving works I expect around 7.0PH 5GH 3KH (which KH might require a slight buffer to increase a little to prevent easy PH swings). With those parms I would be able to provide that easily and consistently on a weekly basis.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

PH will be dependent on atmospheric influence. It isn't bound exactly by Kh although this plays a significant role.

Yes 10:6 will give about 5:3.
What I will say, if you end up needing to add a buffer Kh, you may as well convert to a full RO mix. All you need is the GH powder and some scales and your sorted.

This method will be much cheaper than using the dechlorinater product. I just switched over last year, there appears to be no difference except in my wallet!
It depends on how you feel but it is simple enough.

(You could mix in tank slowly with the fish and you'd be dripping it on the way, saves running two tanks, all of my changes happened live, after some tests were carried out of course)

Really it is whatever you're most comfortable doing.

 

[zer0signal]

PH will be dependent on atmospheric influence. It isn't bound exactly by Kh although this plays a significant role.

Yes 10:6 will give about 5:3.
What I will say, if you end up needing to add a buffer Kh, you may as well convert to a full RO mix. All you need is the GH powder and some scales and your sorted.

This method will be much cheaper than using the dechlorinater product. I just switched over last year, there appears to be no difference except in my wallet!
It depends on how you feel but it is simple enough.

(You could mix in tank slowly with the fish and you'd be dripping it on the way, saves running two tanks, all of my changes happened live, after some tests were carried out of course)

Really it is whatever you're most comfortable doing.

Well, the RO/DI unit came in about 6hrs ago and I have it up and running for about 5hrs. I started my test around 3hrs ago (TDS 000)

50/50 Mix:
(This has been the same readout for 3hrs 'of course ill wait till the AM and read again)
7.7-8 (hard to tell which shade)
5 GH, 3 KH 170-180 TDS

TAP:
8.1, 10 GH, 6 KH, 380-400TDS

So, I didn't get exactly what I thought the PH would drop to (7.0-2) but I think I can live with 7.7-8 now that the GH has been really reduced. What do you think? Do you think I should worry about the KH w/ it that low '3'?

 

[J.Mcpeak]

3 is the lowest I'd go! If you're heavily planted it is too low unless you have a pH controller, these are very expensive!

You should have a constant number for TDS. Do you have a stick test?
(TDS meter handheld type)
Very important tool.

(That's the upper end of slightly hard water. I run my soft tanks around 086 and the others around 116-127 except the puffer fish which is in salt (3040tds approx).)

To achieve that, you'd need the Kh buffer. (I've only used NT labs) it works!
No deaths!
The pH will change, it is influenced by the atmosphere. The other readings will not.
(Providing the sample was well mixed)

Once you have the test data, a quick TDS reading is all you need to do each time you mix. That's what I do. I test the tanks GH/Kh from time to time but, if you change enough water they are always where I think they will be.

Your 50:50 mix would be ok for a lot of fish!

 

[zer0signal]

3 is the lowest I'd go! If you're heavily planted it is too low unless you have a pH controller, these are very expensive!

You should have a constant number for TDS. Do you have a stick test?
(TDS meter handheld type)
Very important tool.

Yeah I purchased one, every time i test the mix its either 175-7 (so i just put a range number)

Amazon.com: HM Digital TDS-4 Pocket Size TDS Tester Meter Without Digital Thermometer, 0-9990 ppm Measurement Range , 1 ppm Resolution, +/- 2% Readout Accuracy: Home Improvement

The pH will change, it is influenced by the atmosphere. The other readings will not.
(Providing the sample was well mixed)

Very well mixed, stir and air stone in (4way gang valve) each bucket (TAP, Mix, RO)

Once you have the test data, a quick TDS reading is all you need to do each time you mix. That's what I do. I test the tanks GH/Kh from time to time but, if you change enough water they are always where I think they will be.

So you're saying once I find the right mix all I have to do is match the TDS each time and it will produce the same mix?

Your 50:50 mix would be ok for a lot of fish!

Trying to make this a great tank for really only GBR's

So in this situation knowing this will be for GBR's (very possible breeding) would you bother messing with the KH (3) or just leave this as the right mix (provided everything tests good in the AM)? I always do a weekly water change (used to be 50% but going to do 30% and I can do this 2 times a week if needed)


ALSO:
Do you have any resources I could read up on, for making your own water "Straight RO/DI w/ mixing agents to achieve what you want?"

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Yeah I purchased one, every time i test the mix its either 175-7 (so i just put a range number)

Amazon.com: HM Digital TDS-4 Pocket Size TDS Tester Meter Without Digital Thermometer, 0-9990 ppm Measurement Range , 1 ppm Resolution, +/- 2% Readout Accuracy: Home Improvement


Very well mixed, stir and air stone in (4way gang valve) each bucket (TAP, Mix, RO)


So you're saying once I find the right mix all I have to do is match the TDS each time and it will produce the same mix?


Trying to make this a great tank for really only GBR's

So in this situation knowing this will be for GBR's (very possible breeding) would you bother messing with the KH (3) or just leave this as the right mix (provided everything tests good in the AM)? I always do a weekly water change (used to be 50% but going to do 30% and I can do this 2 times a week if needed)


ALSO:
Do you have any resources I could read up on, for making your own water "Straight RO/DI w/ mixing agents to achieve what you want?"

Quote 1,
Ok, got ya. (Sorry!) I thought it might be fluctuating.

Quote 3,
Yes, that's what I do. Test the mix fully GH/Kh/TDS. Then make a mix to the TDS. (You can test it, it will be the same) this is influenced slightly by the changing TDS of the source water but it is negligible. My tap water fluctuates slightly. (So 50:50 might sometimes be 45:55 etc.)
If the TDS numbers are the same, the water will test the same in a full range test. (Slight variable but it is lost in the volume of tank water)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This only applies to NEW water, not water which has seen biological activity!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Finally, yes I do 2-3 changes per week on most of my tanks, the TDS in my tanks is the figure I keep steady. (But I do this by water changes of a mix plus top up, I adjust the mix slightly to compensate, eg, 50:50 plus 2RO, or, if the tank should be 116, and I get 126, I add 30% @ 106)


Umm, the data you require is not available, at least I never found any.
I started off at 0.2 gram per litre each (GH/Kh)
Test record etc.
(You need scales with at least 0.00 accuracy, these are cheap!
0.0 accuracy is not precise enough.)


What you have here is an account of my own work (free of charge!)
You gotta love this place!

(I make a stock solution of buffer mix @ 10:10 up to 25:25 (grams, into 25litre container, GH:Kh)

It's diluted on the day, in a bucket, quickly mixed by immersion of a jug on its side, lift, drop, lift drop. Test TDS, ready for tank)
The stock is mixed overnight for the stronger solution and at least 5 hours for the weak blend.

The big tank is mixed in the tank, I don't have the facility to prepare 225 litres of water, so I add 4x25 litres RO (poured straight in) then half of the stock mix (12litres approx) then I add the remaining RO and then the rest of the container of stock mix. THIS IS DONE IN THE TANK.
I have done it this way since I first set up the big tank, so 6-7 years.
No problems.

The key to it is pre testing, then you know what you are adding.
LOTS OF PEOPLE WOULD SAY DO NOT DO THAT! (Add RO in this way)
It works for me, just pop in and see my clown loaches!

(If you test you will realise that 100 litres RO doesn't make much difference to 600 litres of water. It is perfectly safe, I have experienced no losses that I can say were caused by mixing LIVE in tank, I haven't lost any clowns in over 9.5 years)

 

[zer0signal]

Awesome, I 100% appreciate this info you have given (i also agree on this info not being out there spent hours last night reading and locating stuff)! Thank You!

I spent some more time researching TDS last night, and found a few documents and testimonials on pH not really being the biggest factor w/ fish, but more along the lines of TDS. pH shock seems to be more related to TDS shock, and a low pH fish in reality is just a low TDS fish. So they're saying try not to focus so much on the pH but, work on the TDS as that has more direct impact with the fishes organs doing osmo-regulation.

With that said, I am really starting to lean your way of just making the water. So with NT Labs, I assume you just purchase the kH up, and dH up, and mix with the RO/DI to get the levels you want (IE: 10:10 or 25:25, and then add the parts of that to RO/DI to get the mix)? If so, they don't seem to be here in the States (No Amazon), is there another company you can recommend that I maybe able to purchase from. I really don't want to do the baking soda method (will if I have to, but would prefer something straight forward).

 

[J.Mcpeak]

So I looked into this some more, turns out NT labs is an English outfit!
(Learn something new everyday!)

Seachem do GH powder, what I would do is look for pond suppliers, the most common use for these GH/Kh powders is in ponds, sorry but that's the best I can do from Blighty!

PH swings are real important, stable pH is ok for most things, but, for breeding it is more critical, those fish that prefer acid tend not to spawn and if they do fry rarely survive. That's about all I can say on that!

Thanks for the thanks! Im glad you found this helpful!

(Yes about the way I make water, I'm not sure about your supply but I get fluctuating nitrate levels when it rains, some fish hate nitrate, even a little bit, so in the end I decided I've had enough of tap water!)
You do save on de chlorinator but not much as you need the powders, 1.5kg of each lasts me about 1 year, that's enough for all of my tanks plus some off site, I save the filter cost and over half of my food bill at a quick guess, but it depends on how many tanks you run?

 

[zer0signal]

So I looked into this some more, turns out NT labs is an English outfit!
(Learn something new everyday!)

Truth!

Seachem do GH powder, what I would do is look for pond suppliers, the most common use for these GH/Kh powders is in ponds, sorry but that's the best I can do from Blighty!

Yeah I found a product by Kent called RO Right, but it seems to just handle the GH aspect of it.
Kent Marine » R/O Right | Products

They do have a dkH, but it seems like its for Marine. What do you think?
Kent Marine » Superbuffer-dKH | Products

Both of these products are fully available at my LFS I travel to.

(Yes about the way I make water, I'm not sure about your supply but I get fluctuating nitrate levels when it rains, some fish hate nitrate, even a little bit, so in the end I decided I've had enough of tap water!)
You do save on de chlorinator but not much as you need the powders, 1.5kg of each lasts me about 1 year, that's enough for all of my tanks plus some off site, I save the filter cost and over half of my food bill at a quick guess, but it depends on how many tanks you run?

I have 2 tanks, 60 Gallon Living room, and 36 Gallon office, I am only making water for the 36 Gallon and when ever i need to bring new fish into the 36 gallon via the 20 Gallon QT tank.

My 60 gallon really doesn't need any work because they're all really hard water fish (Boesemani Rainbows, Praecox Rainbows), so my TAP is perfect for them, just using RO for top offs during the week (its awesome that i don't need to waste any dechlor for 1 gallon top offs now on any tank)

 

[zer0signal]

Alright, so here is what I got just from cutting TAP and R/O (with only adding prime to the amount of TAP in the Mix)

5Gallon Bucket Mix (With Set TAP (Aerated and Prime)

R / T = TDS pH GH KH
55/45 = 165 7.7 5 3
60/40 = 141 7.7 4 3
75/25 = 091 7.6 3 2


I am thinking I am going to be safest w/ the 60/40 Mix, until I get around to making it straight w/ RO and adding buffers for the KH/GH

But I may not even need to do that (provided this mix 60/40 shows stability over the long haul, I don't see why it would not stay stable w/ 20-30% changes every 2-3days), since this tank will just be their community tank (soft water fish), then once I am ready to breed I can move them over to the 20 Gallon that's set specifically to what they want to breed.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I guess those products would work? The GH would be the same. The Kh may not be so useful, the product would adjust the pH up to 8.2 (perfect for marine)

Maybe your lfs could source the stuff for you?

Really I have no grounds to comment on kent marine products, I have not used any and I'm not an expert! Perhaps somebody else could advise what's best here?

A quick glance would see me using RO right and pH stable instead.

 

[zer0signal]

I guess those products would work? The GH would be the same. The Kh may not be so useful, the product would adjust the pH up to 8.2 (perfect for marine)

Maybe your lfs could source the stuff for you?

Really I have no grounds to comment on kent marine products, I have not used any and I'm not an expert! Perhaps somebody else could advise what's best here?

A quick glance would see me using RO right and pH stable instead.

Thanks, Yeah I wasn't sure on the Kent stuff. I did go into one of my LFS that's down the road from me, but they really didn't know. So I started looking at Discus raising since its def a freshwater fish that would require home made water, and it led me over to Seachem support forums and seems like these are my best 3 (Already ordered via Amazon not to bad price wise $6.30 each ((5.63 Euro)) for 300g ~500Gallons).

Picked up:
Acid Buffer:
Seachem. Acid Buffer

Alkaline Buffer:
Seachem. Alkaline Buffer

Equilibrium:
Seachem. Equilibrium

Alkaline to rise the pH and KH (make the water stable), and Equilibrium will bring up the GH and give trace elements for plants (I am not heavy planted at all, and will not be) Acid just incase I need it, will have to experiment all over again, but once I find the right combo in the 5 Gallon I should be able to scale it.

Thoughts on these if you don't mind, again I really really appreciate the help!

 

[zer0signal]

Hey J. Mcpeak, so I have everything all sorted out, and its working perfectly for a few weeks. I ended up buying a storage unit to house bulk RO water.

Keeping about 32G on standby if needed, are you aerating or heating your bulk storage? I have seen some conflicting reports on it, some say do some say don't. What are you doing with yours?

 

[Coyne]

I know you didn't ask me, but...

I have a 55 gallon barrel of pre-mixed RODI + tap water ready for water changes. I do keep an airstone and heater in there. The air pump is on all the time. I only plug the heater in a day or two before I change the water in order to get a closer temperature match.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[zer0signal]

I know you didn't ask me, but...

I have a 55 gallon barrel of pre-mixed RODI + tap water ready for water changes. I do keep an airstone and heater in there. The air pump is on all the time. I only plug the heater in a day or two before I change the water in order to get a closer temperature match.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

Thanks for the reply!

I was reading that running the air pump all them time, will pull in more dust and contaminants while its aerating causing TDS to increase in the water. Basically no longer making it pure water?

Mine is not premixed, its just straight RO/DI and the container is covered. I was figuring i would aerate (60mins) once i get my mix in 5 gallon buckets.