Sumps and Pumps!

[Macscale]

Hey everyone,

Alright so I have been looking I to ways to get a sump for my 55g reef build. The problem I'm having is the glass is tempered. I've reasearch quite a few different sump models that I might be able to use.

The reasons a HOB overflow is NOT one of them are:
1. It's on the 2nd story of my house, issues with ceiling warping if there was a flood.
2.It's on carpet.

Here are the different ways I came up with:

1. An overhead sump. Where a small pump, like a Maxijet 800-1200, to pump water a couple of feet is placed in the tank. The sump then sits above the tank, obviously on a different structure. The sump tank is then drilled, and without a return pump the water flows back into the tank.
Thoughts/Opinions and experiences?

2. In-Tank pump concept.
Same type of thing except it required two pumps. A small one, like a maxijet, and a normal return pump. The sump still sits under the tank.
Thoughts/Opinions and experiences?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Sillyfishies]

Following along. I want to hear some suggestions

 

[Redwolf91]

I'm not sure I understand, how is a hob overflow (which may hold a gallon of water, and stops drawing water down as soon as siphon breaks) more of a leak risk than an overhead sump system... It seems to me the overhead could, in certain circumstances, be leaking at a connection, and continue pumping up, losing water till tank level was lower than the pump. Am I maybe imagining the wrong set up from what you are explaining.

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[jeffaquarius]

With that 1st set up the sump will be with constant water level while the DT will not due to evaporation. Your ato will be filling up the DT to maintain the desired level. The problem would be, since the DT will have more surface area it will mean you will be filling it up with larger volume of ato water. In turn that larger volume will create more fluctuation with your parameter (salinity). Unless of course if you can find an ato with a minute graduation.

The 2nd set up is not feasible at all. You will never be able to balance the flow for both.

 

[Eport]

Isn't only the bottom pane of glass tempered? If so you could easily drill the back pane and have a 90 degree elbow fitting facing upward, that's what I did on my 40g breeder tank.

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[Macscale]

Isn't only the bottom pane of glass tempered? If so you could easily drill the back pane and have a 90 degree elbow fitting facing upward, that's what I did on my 40g breeder tank.

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On the 55g model all panels are tempered. Every other one is just the bottom glass.

 

[Macscale]

With that 1st set up the sump will be with constant water level while the DT will not due to evaporation. Your ato will be filling up the DT to maintain the desired level. The problem would be, since the DT will have more surface area it will mean you will be filling it up with larger volume of ato water. In turn that larger volume will create more fluctuation with your parameter (salinity). Unless of course if you can find an ato with a minute graduation.

The 2nd set up is not feasible at all. You will never be able to balance the flow for both.

What you pointed out with the first one is what I found to be true most times. I've also found that it would lack surface skimming, that goes for both methods actually.

Now, for the second set up, why would it be so hard to balance the flow. Creating a gravity flow down, like everything else, and then a return pump pushing it back up. Where would the flow absence be? The sump? DT? You can use the smallest of the smallest pump in the tank, like a MJ400. That pushes 2.5 feet max I believe. It must push the water about 1ft and the rest is done by gravity. The water should gain maybe 25-50goh flowing down. Then get a 500gph return pump. Don't see how it would be any different from the water draining in bulkheads or a siphon.

 

[Eport]

Both pumps would be at a constant flow and gravity cannot increase flow rate because the pump is putting more pressure through the hose than a siphon, but if you had gate valves on each the return and the feed lines it would easily be able to balance the flow othere wise one will have a higher flow and something will be overfilling, either the sump or display tank. Also if you do go with the second option, wherever you put the pump in the tank, height-wise, thats how far down the water level would go if the power ever went out and it would most likely flood the sump. You could just go with the HOB overflow and now people have been using small air vaccum pumps to keep the siphon going incase it were to ever break.
, and if the power went out there wouldnt be as much extra water heading into the sump and when the power comes back it starts the siphon again.

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[Macscale]

Both pumps would be at a constant flow and gravity cannot increase flow rate because the pump is putting more pressure through the hose than a siphon, but if you had gate valves on each the return and the feed lines it would easily be able to balance the flow othere wise one will have a higher flow and something will be overfilling, either the sump or display tank. Also if you do go with the second option, wherever you put the pump in the tank, height-wise, thats how far down the water level would go if the power ever went out and it would most likely flood the sump. You could just go with the HOB overflow and now people have been using small air vaccum pumps to keep the siphon going incase it were to ever break.
, and if the power went out there wouldnt be as much extra water heading into the sump and when the power comes back it starts the siphon again.

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Neither of the tanks would overflow with the second method if the water level is kept at the correct height. Say, 8" of water out of 16" the tank is. I wouldn't place the pump 8" down in the DT, so neither would overflow.

 

[jeffaquarius]

Neither of the tanks would in eachverflow with the second method if the water level is kept at the correct height. Say, 8" of water out of 16" the tank is. I wouldn't place the pump 8" down in the DT, so neither would overflow.

Yes you can compromise by reducing the volume of water in both tanks by lowering the minimum level. You also need to install other sensors or controls to stop each pump before it reaches the minimum level. Even if you can balance the flow by means of gate valves overtime they will gradually deviate from each other. With all those stuff to make it work it becomes complicated. Using smaller capacity pumps will reduce filtering effectiveness. Lastly, I have not known anyone yet with such configuration. You might be the first.

 

[Wy Renegade]

Who made your tank - I've yet to see a 55 gallon tank with all tempered glass?

In regards to your two designs, the top one is possible with a drilled tank to handle gravity fed overflow back into the DT - as was pointed out, you will have no surface skimming of the DT, although you could surface skim the sump, and you also may have issues with top off. Secondly you have the issue of attaching/placing a pump capable of pumping water up to the sump somewhere in your DT.

If a HOB is out because of the possibility of a flood, you surely don't want the second set-up because guaranteed you will either have a flood by overflowing one of your tanks, or you will burn up one or more of your pumps, and then likely have a flood. Even if you started out with the exact same two pumps with gate valves on them, the first time one of them gets an obstruction, the other one will either burn up or cause a flood. Not worth the time, effort, or money to make the attempt IMO.

 

[Macscale]

Yes you can compromise by reducing the volume of water in both tanks by lowering the minimum level. You also need to install other sensors or controls to stop each pump before it reaches the minimum level. Even if you can balance the flow by means of gate valves overtime they will gradually deviate from each other. With all those stuff to make it work it becomes complicated. Using smaller capacity pumps will reduce filtering effectiveness. Lastly, I have not known anyone yet with such configuration. You might be the first.

I see.. Thanks for clarifying. .

 

[Macscale]

Who made your tank - I've yet to see a 55 gallon tank with all tempered glass?

In regards to your two designs, the top one is possible with a drilled tank to handle gravity fed overflow back into the DT - as was pointed out, you will have no surface skimming of the DT, although you could surface skim the sump, and you also may have issues with top off. Secondly you have the issue of attaching/placing a pump capable of pumping water up to the sump somewhere in your DT.

If a HOB is out because of the possibility of a flood, you surely don't want the second set-up because guaranteed you will either have a flood by overflowing one of your tanks, or you will burn up one or more of your pumps, and then likely have a flood. Even if you started out with the exact same two pumps with gate valves on them, the first time one of them gets an obstruction, the other one will either burn up or cause a flood. Not worth the time, effort, or money to make the attempt IMO.

The tank was from the dollar per gallon sale at petco. On the bottom of the tank is a bright orange sticker reading "Do not drill. All panels are tempered." It really sucks.

 

[Macscale]

Now in regards everyone. Thanks for all the advice. Sumps are my weakest point in the hobby, having never run one :|. Boy do I wish the tank wasn't tempered.

Do you know of any overflows or such that are close to bullet proof? I believe someone mentioned one using certain pumps to cut it off if something with the water level goes wrong?

Wow... Sound like a complete noob right now. Eh, I don't like it, but you have to learn.

 

[t4runnr]

This is a little pricey but it uses your return pump flow to start the siphon when the flow starts.

So when power go out and of the siphon breaks, it will start siphoning again when the pump starts.

I don't know how well it works but a friend of mine was considering this at one time

http://www.fragtasticreef.com/Tom-A...er-Overflow-Box-Toms-Aquatic-HOB-Overflow.htm

 

[jeffaquarius]

I would recommend this one and very reliable. You can then apply your idea of making sure none of the tanks will overflow when power is lost. I have ato controller in my DT to stop the pump from overflowing when HOB overflow is clogged up. I have it in my 60 gal tank and i never had a problem.

CPR CS Overflow Boxes

.

 

[Wy Renegade]

The tank was from the dollar per gallon sale at petco. On the bottom of the tank is a bright orange sticker reading "Do not drill. All panels are tempered." It really sucks.

That is interesting, given the cost of tempered glass, I find it highly unlikely that all the panes are tempered if they sold it at the dollar per gallon sale, but it is tough to argue with the sticker isn't it?

 

[Redwolf91]

Having had to buy normal and tempered glass over the years, I've found tempered to be much more costly, if you can, see who actually made the tank and verify. I had one that had the same label, but only the bottom was actually tempered. Side note, I run a tunze overflow, never lost prime, doesn't build air bubbles, and (for tank / scrubber maintaining proposes ) I've cut power to the pumps often, always picks up right where it left off.

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[Macscale]

That is interesting, given the cost of tempered glass, I find it highly unlikely that all the panes are tempered if they sold it at the dollar per gallon sale, but it is tough to argue with the sticker isn't it?

It is.. Being that it's from petco... And they aren't always the most reliable source of information, I'll check online and see if I can drill the tank. Hey, but I mean... Maybe the sticker is right.

 

[Macscale]

Having had to buy normal and tempered glass over the years, I've found tempered to be much more costly, if you can, see who actually made the tank and verify. I had one that had the same label, but only the bottom was actually tempered. Side note, I run a tunze overflow, never lost prime, doesn't build air bubbles, and (for tank / scrubber maintaining proposes ) I've cut power to the pumps often, always picks up right where it left off.

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Yeah, I'll definitely check. It's save a lot of money and hassle if it is. I'll look into the Tunze, thanks.