trickle filters and planted aquariums.. possible problem???

[greenmaji]

I would try to answer that question czcz but it would be a theory only answer.. are you talking about the oxygenation capability of the wet/dry filter or of the entire system?

 

[mattrox]

Sealing your wet dry chamber would be akin to a canister filter. Oxygen would be added by plants if they produced enough and at the surface of the open tank.

I can't predict the net result though.......

 

[czcz]

Thanks much guys. I was asking about wet/dry, greenmagi. AFAIK there's no good consumer O2 test; any thoughts on how to quantify results? I'll post CO2 relevant measurements when I get around to this experiment (itll be a while), for the curious

 

[greenmaji]

I was asking because mattrox answered the if it was the entire system question.. the surface area of the water in your tanks plus all the plants you keep should be plenty. by the way the trapped air in the wet/dry will only be as concentrated with CO2 as the water flowing in it.. it will have the same concentration of O2 as the water in it as well.. the gasses in the water and the gasses in the wet/dry will come to equilibrium thats the idea behind sealing the wet/dry sump..
my question is.. is the bio-chamber air tight and even if it is what would be the point of having a air tight bio-chamber I thought one of the benefits of bio-filtration in a wet/dry was the O2 added to the denitrifying bacteria in the bio-chamber. it would be stuck using the O2 that is dissolved in the water, I understand that a canister does this but from my research this is the only reason a wet/dry could be possibly better than a canister in any regard..

 

[czcz]

Im on the same train of thought, man, but it didnt stop at my station before yesterday. Its what lead to the question: since I'm trapping CO2 in the wet/dry area, I must be trapping O2 as well; therefore, there's no real point in having a wet/dry anymore, besides the fun of building it My wet/dry isn't an air tight seal -- I only tightened/messed with it after reading discussion about its applied benefits with CO2, in a thread a few weeks ago. I still think correct (open) diy wet/dry with stable CO2 is sweet, but maybe there's some way to do a comparison of dissolved O2 (vs. submerged bio stage) without expensive test equipment?

 

[greenmaji]

Ok here it goes.. the bad news.. you could always use your DIY wet/dry on a fish only system some day! and go ahead an get a canister... here you go.. DIY canister, more fun! Ive seen some great plans for a DIY canister filtration system on another forum..

if putting up a link to another forum is poor taste could someone fill me in.. I think ive seen some of the advisors do it but that could be my poor memory...

http://cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=52761

 

[czcz]

Thanks for the link

 

[mattrox]

There are DO test kits but they are more of a scientific nature to get Do levels in lakes and such like..... It is an Iodine test. Easy to do and you could get a kit from a scientific supplier... don't know the cost.


*edit... $42.50 at this place http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/461/cid/64

and a site for Aussies
http://aquaspex.com.au/products/microtest/dissox.html $87.50 for the Aussie kit (all their other test kit prices are very uncompetative when compared to the LFS so there maybe cheaper DO test kits in OZ)

 

[czcz]

Thanks. Still too rich for my curiosity

 

[mattrox]

I was at the LFS today and notices that there was on O2 kit that was much cheaper. I think it was a Sera test kit. it was about AU$32. Since stuff is more expensive here you guys would get it much cheaper I bet.

 

[greenmaji]

Ive come to the conclusion that trickle filters, wet/dry, are a problem with CO2 gas and the ability of the filter to do its job as well as it was designed to do.. from what I can tell if the wet/dry is hooked up to filter the water the way it is suppose to you can expect up to a four hundred percent loss in CO2.. I gathered this from reading what other people have posted about the consumption of CO2 in there system and how often they need to refill there compressed canisters. I dont think Ill be using a wet/dry in my planted tanks in the future.. thanks for the information guys.. its been great!!

 

[czcz]

I learned from and liked this discussion too. Thanks to you greenmagi.

Mattrox, thanks. I've read Sera and most hobby-oriented O2 tests are inaccurate, but will do the experiment later and post back with numbers.

 

[Biotoper]

Hi Greenmagi,

I have a 75g Seaclear II with wet/dry trickle filter built-in to the back. When I first set it up in Dec 2004, I planted it and did fishless cycle - since then I have always measured 0 amm/0 nitrite/0 nitrate, doing about 5% water changes weekly. I have 160 W and have experimented with DIY CO2, up to 4X2L and trying different reactor methods, but have not seen any effect on plant growth with or without it (due to some secondary buffer in my tap water, I haven't been able to get confident measurements of CO2 concentration, but I doubt I've ever reached above ambient, which I at least partly blame to gas off from the trickle filter.) Surface agitation is very low. My vallisneria and water sprite have done great, rotala and crypts ok, but ambulia and wisteria have not done well.

I don't have any experience with cannister filters but I think any benefit you might get from the potentially higher biofilter capacity of a wet/dry filter would be redundant with the healthy plant growth of a high light, CO2 tank. So I think I would go with cannister for a high plant, CO2 injected system. One nice thing is my wet/dry filter needs essentially no maintenance - I rinse the pre-filter floss every once in a while when I feel like it, and that's about it.

Now, AFAIK many Mbunas will eat your plants, so along with the issue of higher pH (I guess you can acclimate them to a somewhat lower pH than natural, but I assume not too much), you may have a tough time growing a cool plant aquascape. I have not seen any heavily planted high light, CO2-injected East African cichlid tanks, but I'm sure there's someone out there doing it. So in your case, setting up a sump with wet/dry filter and planted refugium might be a really cool, innovative way to go. If you use floating plants and semi-aquatic pond plants, then CO2 won't be an issue.

Ryan

 

[greenmaji]

I think the biggest problem with a wet/dry system would be with a DIY CO2 system.. the pressurized CO2 can just be cranked up, DIY is alot harder to get more CO2.. Mubas apparently eat plants that are native to Lake Malawi, ive heard they dive into some vals, but other than vals there are few native plants on the market.. I know there is a difference in bio-filtration between a wet/dry and a canister but I have never seen a scientific analysis of this difference. With a planted tank you need a nitrate factory after a while and both are nitrate factories after a while and again the difference, I dont know if that information is out there either..
czcz has a high light planted, planted refugium, reverse photoperiod, with DIY CO2 system if that interests you..

 

[greenmaji]

by the way you probibly need to start dosing for nitrate.. KNO3 is used for it, if you have a planted setup and have 0 nitrates, its one the nutrients that plants need.. most of people here try to keep it up in the 10-15ppm range.. actually you are suppose to start a nutrient regiment when nitrates reach 0.. you might need more help on this one.. you might want to do a search here on the forum for the regiments that have been listed by some of the members here..

 

[czcz]

I have not seen any heavily planted high light, CO2-injected East African cichlid tanks, but I'm sure there's someone out there doing it.

Ryan, check out Travis Simonson's tank: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=all&ppuser=8062&thumb=1

 

[Biotoper]

Thanks for the advice. Travis's tank is really cool.

I haven't seen any numbers on wet/dry vs. submerged biofilters, just lots of anecdotal info/people's experiences that many wet/dry methods (trickle bioballs, trickle floss, biowheel, etc) can filter a greater bioload than submerged media.

I've read a lot on using nutrient supplements, and I've been experimenting with KNO3 and Fe+trace fertilizers, but I have not seen any obvious benefit to plant growth (although I have not tried to hit a target NO3 ppm level and may not have ever reached 10 ppm) and have not seen any obvious evidence of nutrient limitation such as yellow/transparent leaf tissue.

Right now, I'm pretty happy with my level of plant growth (not too much pruning required) and I'm more interested in having a natural-looking biotope tank than a Dutch-style luxuriant planted tank.