Go Back   Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community > General Aquarium Forums > General Hardware/Equipment Discussion
Click Here to Login

Join Aquarium Advice Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com
 
Old 11-25-2011, 08:49 PM   #21
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
tarpon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 2,314
Nvm about the cleaning. I read a little better and saw the siphoning out part
__________________

__________________
tarpon is offline  
Old 11-25-2011, 09:15 PM   #22
member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,667
One lake, ever has so much rock that the rock covers the sand.

It is basic geology, we covered it in my Geology 101 class. As a river slows down it drops smaller and smaller particles. Most of the fish in the hobby are from waters past the gravel, in the sand or finer sections of river systems.
__________________

__________________
Fishguy2727 is offline  
Old 11-25-2011, 09:19 PM   #23
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
tarpon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 2,314
You stated it like it was a law of nature or fact, when clearly its not.
__________________
tarpon is offline  
Old 11-25-2011, 09:20 PM   #24
Aquarium Advice Freak
 
Chriznat20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 248
Send a message via AIM to Chriznat20
Can you even buy underground filters any longer?!?! lol.

I agree with most everybody here - Do a HOB power filter or a canister. Undergravels were notorious for harboring nitrates, and if an ICH outbreak occurred in the tank, you're a total goner.

Also, Ive had tanks since I was 9 (Now 31). I just switched to sand this month- its amazing and I cant believe I waited so long. Also, its $3.60/50lb bag at Home Depot - safe for aquariums!
__________________
46 Gallon Bow F/W: 4 - Zebra Danio's, 2 - Red Platy's, 2 - lg. Silver Dollars, 1 - Pleco (4.5"), 1- Gourami, 1 - Cory Cat, 1 - mystery snail, 4 - Cherry Barbs, 1 - Black Molly
Chriznat20 is offline  
Old 11-25-2011, 09:25 PM   #25
AA Team Emeritus
 
Wy Renegade's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 4,714
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishguy2727 View Post
Sand is cleaner because it requires no cleaning ever. That makes it cleaner than gravel which does require cleaning ever.
I'd be curious to see if anyone has done any long term studies on accumulation of wastes in sand in freshwater systems. Given the relatively low flow rate in most freshwater systems, I find it hard to believe that nothing gets into the sand ever. Even in saltwater systems with a much higher flow rate substances are known to accumulate within the sandbed, be it deep or shallow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishguy2727 View Post
The gunk trapped in HOBs and canisters is still in the system. It is still exposed to the water column. As it rots away it still effects water quality. The only filter that actually removes the waste from the system is a protein skimmer because the skimmate is no longer in contact with the water column and therefore is actually removed from the system (but they don't work in freshwater, so not really relevant).
True enough, till it is removed by the cleaning of the filter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishguy2727 View Post
Natural is not an opinion. It is basic geology. In order for gravel to be a substrate in nature the water has to be moving so fast that sand can't settle. Very few of the fish in the hobby are from waters that move this fast. Almost all the fish in the hobby are from waters that naturally have sand (or finer, like silt or even mud) as a substrate.
While I've certainly not researched enough of the fish in the hobby to know if that is a debatable subject, I do know that your statement on gravel is incorrect. Have you ever been to Lake Yellowstone my friend? Or Crater Lake, or any of the high mountain lakes across our continent? Their substrate is not sand, nor is it a result of flow. Further, very few natural systems are all one type of substrate or another (geology is never simple!). Take lake Malawi for example, one of the African Rift lakes, it has sandy beaches, marshy shores, and rocky areas. The mbuna are tied to the rocky areas, not the sandy beaches or marshy shore areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishguy2727 View Post
I have been using sand for 5-6 years now and you do not have to clean it. Sand keeps everything on top so that one of two things happen. If you have enough flow debris keeps moving until the filters trap it. If you don't have enough flow you end up with a couple spots where debris settles. Those spots are easily siphoned in a few seconds at the very beginning of a water change. So, yes, you may have to spend a few seconds siphoning if you don't have enough flow. Or you can stick with gravel and spend the entire water change vacuuming the gravel.

Yes, I have run UGFs and RUGFs with proper flow. They need to be vacuumed every single week. When neglected they do more harm and it is almost impossible to catch up again without major work in the tank.

With all the better options out there, and sand, it simply makes no sense to me to use UGFs anymore.

Have you ever used sand?
On this, we will have to agree to disagree; I have never done weekly vacuuming, nor does my water quality indicate any such need. I do do regular monthly vacuuming. Yes, I've used sand; for many more than 6 years, although in saltwater not fresh, and I've pulled enough deep sandbed tanks apart to know that sand does not remain clean. I have a hard time believing that your sandbed in your freshwater tank is truly clean. Water (and therefore other dissolved substances) make their way down through the sand by simple water movement, this is true unless your sandbed remains dry (which I doubt).

Personally I would tend to believe that this is even truer in a freshwater system were water flow is even slower than in a saltwater system were water flow is much higher. I also know that sand in saltwater systems can bind phosphates over time, how is this not true in freshwater?

Can you link any studies to show me that a freshwater sandbed remains clean, or is this just your opinion?

Understand, I do not disagree that sand is a much better option in a planted tank for the benefit of supporting the plants, as to the cleaner part, I have a much harder time with that.
__________________
the Bog

"Listen to some of these guys talk, and it's like they were born from their momma's belly with a fishkeeping encyclopedia in one hand and an API kit in the other" (unrevealed).
Wy Renegade is offline  
Old 11-26-2011, 12:14 PM   #26
member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,667
I will let my Geology professor know that it has changed, per some guy online. Although you may find some exceptions (where we don't even get our fish from), the rule still applies. Gravel generally requires higher flow in nature. Almost all of the fish in the hobby are from waters that do NOT have gravel as a substrate.

Although some debris does get down in to the sand, it is an insignificant amount. It doesn't drive up the nitrate concentration by 30-40ppm or more the way debris built up in gravel can. It is not enough to worry about or do anything about.

You will never find any real studies of almost anything in this hobby. Usually the best we can get is something having to do with aquacultured food fish, not ornamental fish. If you are going to wait for studies proving everything you will never move out of the 80s...or UGFs...
__________________
Fishguy2727 is offline  
Old 11-26-2011, 01:47 PM   #27
come get me tang police!
 
jetajockey's Avatar


 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: In a swamp near you /Pensacola, FL
Posts: 12,047
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishguy2727 View Post
Almost all of the fish in the hobby are from waters that do NOT have gravel as a substrate.
I have to disagree with this from personal experience. I would say many, or the majority are found in sand or silty substrates, but I wouldn't say almost all are.

I've collected fish in gravel beds on multiple occasions, and yes they have a constant flow and typically lack vegetation at the center, but there are many species there. I've collected multiple species of sunfish, bass, killifish/topminnow, several various darter and shiners and a few others. So it's pretty safe to assume that there are gravel bottom areas in other parts of the world, and that people collect hobby fish from them.

I could be wrong though, and perhaps I should reconsider my experience and collection logs per some guy online as well.
__________________
Dont Forget to Join my FREE weekly Plant Giveaway.
Click Here!
jetajockey is offline  
Old 11-26-2011, 06:26 PM   #28
member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,667
That is a list of very few fish. That doesn't counterbalance effectively/almost all in the hobby as a whole.

Generally, yes, if you collect from waters that have gravel, most of the fish you catch will come from waters with gravel as a substrate.
__________________
Fishguy2727 is offline  
Old 11-26-2011, 08:34 PM   #29
come get me tang police!
 
jetajockey's Avatar


 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: In a swamp near you /Pensacola, FL
Posts: 12,047
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishguy2727 View Post
That is a list of very few fish. That doesn't counterbalance effectively/almost all in the hobby as a whole.

Generally, yes, if you collect from waters that have gravel, most of the fish you catch will come from waters with gravel as a substrate.
I didn't realize I had to make a comprehensive list of every fish that I know lives in an area with gravel substrate. I was just giving an example of the ones I have seen for myself, and my range is very limited, so I'm sure there are a lot more out there.

My point still stands though, the lack of cogent response shows that.
__________________
Dont Forget to Join my FREE weekly Plant Giveaway.
Click Here!
jetajockey is offline  
Old 11-26-2011, 08:37 PM   #30
Aquarium Free - 2+ Years
 
mfdrookie516's Avatar



POTM Champion
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Winchester, Ky
Posts: 19,410
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetajockey View Post
I didn't realize I had to make a comprehensive list of every fish that I know lives in an area with gravel substrate. I was just giving an example of the ones I have seen for myself, and my range is very limited, so I'm sure there are a lot more out there.

My point still stands though, the lack of cogent response shows that.
But you're just a guy on the internet
__________________

__________________
-Jonathan

"What, exactly, is the internet? Basically it is a global network exchanging digitized data in such a way that any computer, anywhere, that is equipped with a device called a 'modem', can make a noise like a duck choking on a kazoo." - Dave Barry
mfdrookie516 is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
filter, filters, gravel, under gravel

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
upgrading tank and filters danstroud1 Freshwater & Brackish - General Discussion 8 10-22-2011 05:23 AM
Under gravel filters FreshwaterTropical Freshwater & Brackish - General Discussion 20 09-29-2011 04:01 PM
Gravel or Sand? graphicpunk Freshwater & Brackish - General Discussion 12 09-17-2011 05:07 PM
Under gravel filter - how much gravel? rcgldr Freshwater & Brackish - General Discussion 21 08-30-2011 06:00 PM
Adding or replacing gravel? TheLuckyRoll Freshwater & Brackish - Planted Tanks 11 07-24-2011 10:49 PM







» Photo Contest Winners








Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.