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Old 11-26-2011, 11:50 PM   #31
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Again, if you only look where there is gravel, all the fish will come from places with gravel.

I keep forgetting every river is full of gravel, not sand, silt, mud, etc...I can't believe something of such basic knowledge is argued. It wasn't even an advanced class, 101. Super basic knowledge and common sense.
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Old 11-26-2011, 11:52 PM   #32
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I think I'll switch to mud substrate... I hear that most of the fish I have come from muddy bottoms. Wish me luck.
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Old 11-26-2011, 11:58 PM   #33
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Take it to the extreme and out of context...nice. Obviously that isn't what is meant. Sand is an actual option, mud (usually) isn't.

Good thing everyone argues against sand so much, it is so evil. Being cleaner, and more recent than the 80s. But...the whole point of forums is to hold the hobby back and argue against any advancement just for the sake of argument.

We should all go back to gravel, UGFs, corner box filters, airing water out instead of using dechlorinator, and only feed crap foods.
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Old 11-27-2011, 12:01 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishguy2727 View Post
Again, if you only look where there is gravel, all the fish will come from places with gravel.

I keep forgetting every river is full of gravel, not sand, silt, mud, etc...I can't believe something of such basic knowledge is argued. It wasn't even an advanced class, 101. Super basic knowledge and common sense.
What gave you the idea that I only look in places with gravel? I was just making a simple point that I have collected several varied fish species in gravel areas, not that this is the only place I've collected fish, and it doesn't mean that these fish only live exclusively in gravel areas.

Since you obviously have nothing better to respond with than attempts to insult my intelligence, the conversation has lost all of its fruitfulness and I will leave you to it. Take care.
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Old 11-27-2011, 12:02 AM   #35
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Stop posting opinions as factual information and I'll never bother you again. I agree with a lot of your opinions (please don't take that too far), but I do not agree with your method of presenting these OPINIONS as FACTS. I won't argue that sand is great, I love it. But, it's not the end all, be all of aquarium substrates. Just like NLS isn't God's gift to fish, and estes isn't the best thing since sliced bread.
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Old 11-27-2011, 12:04 AM   #36
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It is not your intelligence, it is that you think that because you can think of SOME places that naturally have gravel that it disproves basic principles of geology. As stated, most fish in the hobby do not have gravel as a substrate in nature. They have sand (or finer). The fact that there are places with gravel is not argued against, but does not prove that most of the in the hobby do not have gravel naturally.
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Old 11-27-2011, 12:06 AM   #37
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I didn't mention NLS or Estes, at least not recently in this thread. We bring those up just to argue them against me?

The FACTS that I did state were facts. Water has to be moving at a certain speed to have gravel as a substrate. Most aquarium fish come from water systems too slow to have gravel as a substrate. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.
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Old 11-27-2011, 12:19 AM   #38
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I used to have UGF's in my tanks, I prefer HOB's and cannister filters as a matter of choice. I have sand in all my tanks because they are heavily planted and a UGF makes sand impossible.

I love my sand but can tell you it does get dirty, the fish dig in it, they dig around the plants, cichlids pick it up and spit it out and the current carries mulm into the sand. Because of my fish and plants I need to clean the sand in my tanks more than probably most people do.

That is my opinion and that being said, this discussion is not about sand or gravel or what most fish have for substrate in the wild. This discussion was started by the op about filters, particularily whether UGF's are a good choice in other people's opinions. Keep the discussion about substrate out of this thread. Respect the op and stick to the topic please. It was disrespectful to have even had this particular off topic conversation started.
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Old 11-27-2011, 10:14 AM   #39
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So...okay, wow! A lot has happened since I was on here yesterday! Let's calm down everyone

I really do appreciate everyone's opinions, and I will take all into consideration.

Fishguy, I'm not trying to get your back up by saying this, seriously I'm not, but your geology professor is just a guy too. He is just repeating what was told to him by some other guy! We're all just people with often flawed opinions. And textbooks! They do change! I've recently gone back to college (in fact I'm taking geology this semester ) and I can tell you that things that were stated as FACT 25 years ago have either been changed or omitted in some cases. And that will happen again with the books I'm learning from now!

I do appreciate everything you've added to the conversation, really. You seem very passionate about doing the right thing for your fish, and I appreciate that. I think that is the most important thing when dealing with animals that are depending on us for their very lives.

I just didn't want you to think professors are all knowing and special, because they're not!

I think the best thing to do is take other people's knowledge, add our own to that, and come up with our own opinions!

By the way, this might be off topic, but...NLS and Estes, what are they?
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Old 11-27-2011, 10:29 AM   #40
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Undergravel filters are ok but can cause excess in nitrates if not gravel vac frequently. I would not use an undergravel filter to rearing tanks or grow out tanks. It could suck the fry into the filter and after all the hard work I wouldn't wanna see that happen. Hob filters are great. Provide three different types of filtration and sometimes even have sponge attachments for the intake tube to protect those little guys.

In my bedroom tank I have a undergravel powered by a maxi-jet 900 and a hob aquaclear. Personally I would go with a Hob or canister filter. They can be easier to maintain.

Although someone mention how much work goes into an undergrav filter compared to hob filters. But I personally don't really so to be of a difference unless you don't clean your inserts.
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