Am I a breeder now?????

[conor]

Hi guys,
Let me start by saying that I never thought my first post here would be in the breeding section but here I am!

I received a 3ft tank and canister filter about 6 mths ago and cleaned it up and put water in it and it sat in my hall like that with out the filter running or the heater on until about a month ago as i didn't know what I wanted to keep. I had looked in a few aquarium shops and really wanted to keep salt water fish and coral etc. but the more i read about it the more expensive it was looking and complex so finally 3-4 weeks ago I decided that I was just going to go tropical. Still not really knowing what I wanted to keep but knowing that much i went and picked up some white sand from my local store and added it and the next day I went back and picked up some cheap fish (2 Koi Angel's and 10 cardinal tetra) with the intention of just getting the first cycle started while i decided what i want to keep.

So a week or 2 ago I decided that i would like to try to keep discus it would be a challenge but I like a challenge so i started to raise the temp slowly and try get every thing right so I would be able to get them after the first cycle or when ever i had all my levels where they should be and were stable. My PH had been stable at 7.8 from i first tested it and i was doing small water changes to try and bring it down to no avail so yesterday i went and got some bullseye 6.5 and added it to the tank (while hoping that the fish wouldn't die from PH shock) and tested my PH today and it was perfect.

Now I had noticed my angel fish always swimming over to me when they seen me coming and chasing the tetra about now and again over the past week and was wondering were they trying to attack them/eat them or what was up with them thinking maybe they were very hungry all the time. It started to click with me yesterday as i was reading about Discus that they were getting territorial or i had a male asserting his dominance so last night I looked up how to sex angel fish and i was pretty sure that I had (by chance) picked out a male and a female.

After checking my PH this eve and seeing it was right and all were still alive I noticed that the leaf of one of my plants had been nibbled alot then when i loked closer i seen a little ball of what looked like clear jelly then some of them broke loose and i noticed the other side of the leaf that isn't visable was litrally walking with loads more of these baby angel fish

some blew off in the current and mammy snatched them up in her mouth and blew them back on to the leaf then some more broke free and she snatched them up in her mouth!!

So it looks like I have done some thing right or just got lucky but what do I do now I'm not sure if mammy is saving the fry or eating them or a bit of both I don't have another tank ready to put the fry into (have a small tank would need cleaning and new filter insert etc. etc.) so im kind of hoping that mammy and daddy will look after them where they are but really would appreciate some/any advice that you guys can give me

Conor

 

[IllusionX]

I'll have to read up on koi angles breeding. I'm not sure if they will eat up their fry or not. But the cardinals will eat the fry given the chance to.

 

[ImACoolguy]

I'm sure Andy will chime in. He is very knowledgeable on angelfish breeding. Yes your Angels will eat their babies, quite a few fish actually will.

Personally, I hope you are not keeping the discus and breeding Angels in the same tank. Angels get quite aggressive during breeding, as I'm sure you have noticed. Discus are prone is disease. The stress from the aggressive Angels can easily set in some nasty stuff on the discus. I would give the discus a tank of their own to alleviate the stress of the Angels.

The cardinals can become a snack to a full size angel. I would really suggest fixing your stuck some.

Also: it is always better to keep a stable pH than a perfect one. If it really needs to change, which should only be done in extreme pH ranges (below 6.0 and above 9.0) you can use buffers such as peat moss and driftwood to lower pH and crushed coral to raise pH. These will also help hold the pH at that level. Never use pH changing chemicals as they only work temporarily and will stress your fish.


Caleb

Sent via TARDIS

 

[conor]

the cardinals are not getting any where near them atm the parents look to be doing a great job at guarding the leaf that they are on after observing them a little more both parents seem to be catching any that break away and blowing them back on to the leaf i think my filter could be too strong for them if i was to partially close one of the inlet or outlet valves would it be a safe way to reduce the power?

also would me looking at them make them more likely to eat the young or get stressed i would like to watch them more to see there behavior but don't want to disturb them in case

 

[conor]

I'm sure Andy will chime in. He is very knowledgeable on angelfish breeding. Yes your Angels will eat their babies, quite a few fish actually will.

Personally, I hope you are not keeping the discus and breeding Angels in the same tank. Angels get quite aggressive during breeding, as I'm sure you have noticed. Discus are prone is disease. The stress from the aggressive Angels can easily set in some nasty stuff on the discus. I would give the discus a tank of their own to alleviate the stress of the Angels.

The cardinals can become a snack to a full size angel. I would really suggest fixing your stuck some.

Also: it is always better to keep a stable pH than a perfect one. If it really needs to change, which should only be done in extreme pH ranges (below 6.0 and above 9.0) you can use buffers such as peat moss and driftwood to lower pH and crushed coral to raise pH. These will also help hold the pH at that level. Never use pH changing chemicals as they only work temporarily and will stress your fish.


Caleb

Sent via TARDIS

Haven't got any discus yet i was planning on getting some in a month or so but looks like that is out the window now that i have these fry

I did add drift wood and moss balls when i added the bullseye and i hope they will help to keep the PH down i was just trying to get it down for the discus not really caring about what i already have there as they were just put in to cycle and get the biological filter running but things have kindo changed now

 

[ImACoolguy]

Haven't got any discus yet i was planning on getting some in a month or so but looks like that is out the window now that i have these fry



I did add drift wood and moss balls when i added the bullseye and i hope they will help to keep the PH down i was just trying to get it down for the discus not really caring about what i already have there as they were just put in to cycle and get the biological filter running but things have kindo changed now

Well either way I would focus on 2 things.

1. Keep the pH stable. Unless it's in that extreme range I listed. Don't worry about it. If you bought the fish locally they probably come from the same city water you have. The only fish people sometimes buffer the pay for is, discus. All other fish, will adapt. Even discus will adapt given enough time.

2. Don't put those discus with a breeding pair of Angels. It's going to end badly.... Angels are cichlids, and they truly show that aggressive nature once they are mature and when they breed. discus will not tolerate that aggressive environment very well and will most likely result in disease.

I'm surprised your Angels are doing so well in a cycling tank. Angels can be sensitive. Keep an eye on your parameters and do water changes when the levels get too high. Ammonia and nitrite is very toxic to fish.


Caleb

Sent via TARDIS

 

[IllusionX]

I'm very surprised none of the cardinals haven't died on a cycling tank.

 

[ImACoolguy]

I'm very surprised none of the cardinals haven't died on a cycling tank.

If you have a good bunch they can be pretty hardy. Same goes with neon tetras. And they are known to randomly die.


Caleb

Sent via TARDIS

 

[conor]

have been checking my levels regularly amonina and nitrite have been constant 0 and nitrate has went from 0 up to 15-20 ppm, KH is 70 and GH is 180 today which is some thing i need to address
i have a feeling that the raise in temperature has provoked them to spawn i had read that is what to do with discus to make them spawn they think its summer when the temp rises (just a guess)

I was looking forward to getting discus but I understand that they would not do well with this pair and now that the angels have bred i dont want to get rid of them so i guess discus will be some thing i will do at a later date when the time is right maybe sell the angels in 6 months or a year as a breeding pair if there is any interest

 

[conor]

i did loose 1 cardinal the day i got them home the guy in the shop missed 1 when he bagged them and ended up putting 1 in a seperate bag i think it got damaged at some stage maybe out of water for a while b4 he noticed other than that they are very health and happy looking

 

[Andy Sager]

In answer to your opening headline, You become a breeder when you breed fish intentionally, not accidentally. ( Sorry, I couldn't resist. )

So far, what's been posted is spot on and needs no input from me. Breeding Angels can ( and usually do) get very aggressive to their tank mates so if you want to continue breeding the fish, I'd suggest not adding any more fish and if the cardinals survive, don;t replace them as they die off. If you decide you do not want them to breed anymore, you are going to have to separate them. If you choose to keep only one of the pair, I'd suggest you keep the male as females can spawn on their own and you will have the same aggression issue opposed to the male which will assimilate into the community.

If you choose not to keep them, I'd offer them to a LFS as they are worth more as a proven fertile pair than they would be as 2 single large Angelfish or offer them here or on craigslist.

If you want more help on raising the fry, I suggest you read the thread " Wigglers at last!!!! " in this breeding forum. Pretty much everything you need to know about breeding and raising Angels was discussed on that thread.
Hope this helps

 

[conor]

Thanks andy ?
When i got up this morning i noticed that the fry have moved or been moved to another plant the parent's seem to be doing a great job with them i also noticed more eggs have appeared on my piece of driftwood and on another leaf so they must still be spawning how many fry would normally be dropped at a time and what percentage of them usually survive? If i end up with 10 I'd be well chuffed but the amount that are there atm that would be a very low survival rate

Also as my Gh is so high i want to try bring it down a bit would it be ok to get a DI/RO filter and start using it for water changes now or should i continue with just the tap water i have been using and also going to try get a peat cartridge for my filter to try lower it slowly if you think this may cause any stress or problems let me know as i hope to get them today

Thanks in advance
Conor

 

[conor]

sorry bad test message

 

[conor]

here are some pics of my setup and whats going on. The tank was set up just to look nice i know alot of you dont like decorations etc. in fish tanks but i wanted a bit of a feature not just a bare or all green tank so this is what I done



theses are the eggs that have appeared on the drift wood over night



these are the eggs that are on one of my plants over night



and theses are the wrigglers

 

[ImACoolguy]

I must say well done on the blue river I love it


Caleb

Sent via TARDIS

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks andy ?
When i got up this morning i noticed that the fry have moved or been moved to another plant the parent's seem to be doing a great job with them i also noticed more eggs have appeared on my piece of driftwood and on another leaf so they must still be spawning how many fry would normally be dropped at a time and what percentage of them usually survive? If i end up with 10 I'd be well chuffed but the amount that are there atm that would be a very low survival rate

Also as my Gh is so high i want to try bring it down a bit would it be ok to get a DI/RO filter and start using it for water changes now or should i continue with just the tap water i have been using and also going to try get a peat cartridge for my filter to try lower it slowly if you think this may cause any stress or problems let me know as i hope to get them today

Thanks in advance
Conor

Angels usually spawn all their eggs at one time and in one place so the new ones are probably not theirs UNLESS, these are white dead eggs that they removed from the area of the good eggs. Spawning can be as frequent as every 7-10 days which is usually how long it takes for the last batch of eggs to hatch and free swim so I have no idea what other eggs those could be.
As for moving the fry, this too is typical Angelfish behavior. It can drive a breeder crazy which is why we professionals hatch the eggs out and not let the parents have at them.
How many fry survive is not really answerable. It all depends on how well you feed them and how easy it is for the fry to find food. The more fry that find food easily, the more that will survive.
As for lowering the gh, unless you still plan on getting rid of the Angels and adding the Discus, I'd leave it alone. Obviously, it doesn't bother the fish. These are not wild fish so they don;t need wild conditions. If the fish liked your water enough to spawn in it and the eggs liked it enough to hatch in it then it is okay to use as is.

Hope this helps.

BTW, Nice tank!!!!

 

[conor]

Agh that's great that i don't have to worry about the GH so much was just in the aquarium shop and they tell me the water in our area is/should be soft so maybe regular water changes will take it down slowly I'll check the tap water when i get home and see.
As for the eggs maybe they are a second spawn the wrigglers are free now but parents are having a good job keeping them together and most of them eggs are white couple of clear ones in them though
Was trying to get brime shrimp but they only have large ones that are about the same size as the fry so he says they will be no good and better to crush up flakes and give them instead cant figure out how to get them down to the fry though?
He was also recomending a breeding net to put in the tank would that be a good idea? And if so how will i catch the fry to out in it? It would make feeding easier
I'm guessing if they are free swimming now i should be feeding them already?

 

[IllusionX]

To get food deep into the tank, we soak the flakes in a container using tank water and just empty it into the tank.

 

[conor]

thanks illusionx
I got an oral syringe in the pharmacy and crushed the flakes on to a spoon and added water to it give a little stir and syringed it in around them im not sure if there eating any of it though they seem to scatter and swim around mommy who is busy attacking me and the syringe should i leave the flakes to soak up some water for a while to prevent them from floating up? (not that much really does)

also what is the story with brime shrimp? ive only seen them in the aquarium shop mature in bags of water. i've been reading the "wrigglers at last" thread for the last few hrs and there mentioned alot about them hatching etc when i searched for eggs they seem to be dried is that correct? how long do they take to hatch? what does it take to hatch them? I wasn't expecting dry looking eggs for them and still suspect they could be sold as a dried food for some thing else in that form please advise if you can

I will make a few calls tomorrow and see if i can get eggs from some where as i would like to give them the best chance at survival i can, well for what is left i think my numbers are down alot from yesterday but has stayed the same all day so hope it wont drop over night (i live in Australia in case you are confused)

thanks again in advance i know all these questions have already been answered on the wrigglers thread but its 120+ pages alot of reading and i cant find it on my phone when at work (cant locate the search forum button) so have to wait to i get home to read through it on the laptop

 

[IllusionX]

I find there is a lot of work involved in hatching brine shrimps.