AngelFish - do I have a m/f pair

[Andy Sager]

One of the things about fish these days is that they don;t always follow the rules of their ancestors. HOWEVER, just keep an eye on the smaller fish and if the larger Angels start picking on them, separate them, don't wait. Better to safe than sorry

As for your pics, it looks like the top left and bottom Gold veil should be females. The other two pics are not really good profiles but they appear to be more male in structure. Again, this is only an opinion. The fish are really still too small to be more exact. Here's the thing tho, if these 2 are males and the others females, there may come a time that your tank will become a war zone if they pair off to breed. You should watch for signs of aggression between all the fish. If you start seeing signs of damage but don't know who did it, there's a good chance it was the other Angel.
But for now, just enjoy having them. Watch them grow up. It's sort of ironic but if you are not intending on breeding Angelfish, having pairs in a community tank is really not recommended due to their fighting nature. They are far from "Angels." But let's cross that bridge when we get to it.

 

[amyb_70]

ok, what are some signs of aggression that i should be looking for... i kind of assumed they would stay more with the one of their own size,but i guess not looking far enough down the road they will all be around the same size... for such a slow moving fish i am having a heck of a time trying to get good side views of them so they can be seen and hopefully find out the sexes... as i said if they breed that would be awesome, if they dont thats ok too, but gosh i hope we have a happy family here...

 

[Andy Sager]

Angelfish, you gotta love em. lol For now, just take each day as it comes. I just wanted you to be prepared for the possibilities. You'll know when a fight breaks out. It is pretty obvious.
Like I said, just enjoy them for now.

 

[amyb_70]

Thanks Andy, I will do that. I appreciate you jumping in on the thread I was hoping you would.


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[amyb_70]

Hi aces, I've tried tetras and I burned myself out. I have several diff ones and schooled them but honestly they kinda just hung out. After I lost the marble I replaced her with one very similar plus a koi angel around the same size 2 long veil angels quarter size and 2 very young Philippine blue w/ silver stripe angels. Hopefully they all grow up and get along well. Assuming they do I would only add another long fin albino pleco. Possibly bumble bee goby. I love those little guys but they don't seem to last long for the price I pay. So I guess that will be my beautiful and unique fish tank and I'll keep the smaller tank for my live bearers for my daughter.


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[Andy Sager]

Have you tried keeping your bumble bee gobies in brackish water? If not, that may be why they don;t last long for you. Also, they do best by themselves as other fish tend to pick on them due to their size ( or lack of size actually )

Just thought I would bring that up

 

[amyb_70]

Andy I don't use the brackish water. I have checked all the fish stores in my area and can you believe no one sells it. They tell me salt will be fine. I don't get these stores, to my understanding puffer fish require brackish water also. Why sell the fish and not the supplies to have them survive. I've been fortunate enough that none have been abused by any of my other fish,even the CAE I had. A long frustrating story but was a 1st fish, a must have I was told. Shm they sold me the devil. Oh hey Andy if my angels have issues and I have to seperate or whatever at that time do you think a pair of pink kissing gourmui would be ok and safe for my tank?? I hope I spelled and said the name right


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[Fishobsessed7]

A long frustrating story but was a 1st fish, a must have I was told.


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That's exactly what happened to me.


Fishobsessed7

 

[amyb_70]

MEAN CAE's

That's exactly what happened to me.


Fishobsessed7

Really? I am so sorry to hear that.... it took almost two months for me w/ these kind peoples help to figure out what was killing my fish and eating eyeballs... i have warned people in the store.. last time the store associate got upset and told me they were very peaceful fish, and the guy she sold them to had a guppy tank and bought 5 CAE. I tried to warn him.. im sure he will think of me as his fish start to die for no reason... and good luck catching them those suckers are fast....

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy I don't use the brackish water. I have checked all the fish stores in my area and can you believe no one sells it. They tell me salt will be fine. I don't get these stores, to my understanding puffer fish require brackish water also. Why sell the fish and not the supplies to have them survive. I've been fortunate enough that none have been abused by any of my other fish,even the CAE I had. A long frustrating story but was a 1st fish, a must have I was told. Shm they sold me the devil. Oh hey Andy if my angels have issues and I have to seperate or whatever at that time do you think a pair of pink kissing gourmui would be ok and safe for my tank?? I hope I spelled and said the name right


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It's fairly easy to make brackish water. Just use some synthetic sea salt mix and check the salinity with a hydrometer. The only time BB gobies are in straight fresh water is briefly for when you are trying to incite breeding. Otherwise, I have never had any luck with them when not in brackish water.

As for kissers, remember, they get big. I mean really big. 10" + big. If your other fish can handle fish that size, then it's not a problem.

 

[amyb_70]

wow that's far to big for my 29 gal. I don't want to sound dumb but I don't know what synthetic sea salt is or a hydrometer. It's a challenge for me, I would have it


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[Andy Sager]

It's what's used for making salt water for aquariums and the hydrometer is for testing the specific gravity. But this was only a suggestion as to why your gobies have not been a success for you.
As for Gouramis, Kissers are one of the larger varieties. You may want to stay with dwarf type species such as dwarf, honey, chocolate, etc for a 29 gal tank ( depending on what fish are in the tank)

 

[amyb_70]

I still have 1 goby left. hopefully she/he hangs on, i just think they are the cutest little fellows and enjoy watching the... Well Andy I have Not a clue but unfortunatly I lost 2 angelfish today... My water was tested yesterday and for the first time ever all test showed perfect levels. I am sorry but dont recall the numbers.... oh yeah i have no clue what i s going on but it is getting frustrating as well as expensive... and thoughts, ideas, suggestion, anything please share your thoughts.. thank you

 

[Andy Sager]

I still have 1 goby left. hopefully she/he hangs on, i just think they are the cutest little fellows and enjoy watching the... Well Andy I have Not a clue but unfortunatly I lost 2 angelfish today... My water was tested yesterday and for the first time ever all test showed perfect levels. I am sorry but dont recall the numbers.... oh yeah i have no clue what i s going on but it is getting frustrating as well as expensive... and thoughts, ideas, suggestion, anything please share your thoughts.. thank you

Wow,
first off, sorry for your loss.
To diagnose the situation, you need to be a "Sherlock Holmes" and do some digging.
#1- What was the last thing you did to the tank before the fish died?
#1a- Were these new fish or the older ones that were in the tank for a while?

#2- How were the fish acting the day before they died? ( i.e. eating, swimming normally, active and alert.)

#3- Did the deceased have wounds or any indicators that they were attacked?
#3a- Did they look like they had any disease or abnormality?

#4- How do the rest of the fish in the tank look?

#5- Have you been losing fish other than just the Angels recently?

Start with these and we can go from there.

 

[amyb_70]

The Mystery Begins

Wow,
first off, sorry for your loss.
To diagnose the situation, you need to be a "Sherlock Holmes" and do some digging.
#1- What was the last thing you did to the tank before the fish died?
#1a- Were these new fish or the older ones that were in the tank for a while?

#2- How were the fish acting the day before they died? ( i.e. eating, swimming normally, active and alert.)

#3- Did the deceased have wounds or any indicators that they were attacked?
#3a- Did they look like they had any disease or abnormality?

#4- How do the rest of the fish in the tank look?

#5- Have you been losing fish other than just the Angels recently?

Start with these and we can go from there.

1. last thing i did before the long veil died was feed them , last thing before the little baby died was partial water chang
2. fish were fine and happy yesterday (day before death), the little one even seemed to be swimming around more getting comfortable in her new home
3. neither one of them had wounds. but the long veil was lying on the sand still breathing and a ghost shrimp was feasting on her fins. i removed the shimp as soon as i saw this and kind of guided the fish up to where there was food.
4. the 3 larger fish all seem to be doing good my black one and marble one are always together, the larger koi tends to hang out by herself
5. the other fish in that aquarium are cory cats, some ghost shrimp, the bumble bee goby, and a long fin albino bristlenose pleco, i had a mini pleco but that been no where to be found in weeks now...
an interesting note: all the angels came from 2 different stores...* the 3 larger ones from a chain fish store, these are all the ones who have survived, * the 2 fish i lost today and the 1 i lost the other day came from a family owned business...
I have lost other fish there but was originally told they do nothing if a fish dies, stating once it leaves our store we don't know what you do with them... thankfully the angel that died only hours after getting they did replace but told me to bring the water sample in to have it tested, and WOW finally all levels were in a perfect range couldnt have asked for a better reading so the water change i did today was very small and was mainly to clear some mess off the sand.. also a note: the larger angels do not even pay attention to the other fish, the black and the marble one only seem to worry about eachother, the larger koi kind of hangs out by herself ( do you think i should get her a friend)? i feed them the tropical flakes and occasionally the dried up blood-worms bu not much of that because i am not familiar w/ them, but have read during research they are good for Angels, extra protein and other things that keep them healthier.

 

[Fishobsessed7]

and good luck catching them those suckers are fast....

Yes they are very fast!


Fishobsessed7

 

[Andy Sager]

1. last thing i did before the long veil died was feed them , last thing before the little baby died was partial water chang
2. fish were fine and happy yesterday (day before death), the little one even seemed to be swimming around more getting comfortable in her new home
3. neither one of them had wounds. but the long veil was lying on the sand still breathing and a ghost shrimp was feasting on her fins. i removed the shimp as soon as i saw this and kind of guided the fish up to where there was food.
4. the 3 larger fish all seem to be doing good my black one and marble one are always together, the larger koi tends to hang out by herself
5. the other fish in that aquarium are cory cats, some ghost shrimp, the bumble bee goby, and a long fin albino bristlenose pleco, i had a mini pleco but that been no where to be found in weeks now...
an interesting note: all the angels came from 2 different stores...* the 3 larger ones from a chain fish store, these are all the ones who have survived, * the 2 fish i lost today and the 1 i lost the other day came from a family owned business...
I have lost other fish there but was originally told they do nothing if a fish dies, stating once it leaves our store we don't know what you do with them... thankfully the angel that died only hours after getting they did replace but told me to bring the water sample in to have it tested, and WOW finally all levels were in a perfect range couldnt have asked for a better reading so the water change i did today was very small and was mainly to clear some mess off the sand.. also a note: the larger angels do not even pay attention to the other fish, the black and the marble one only seem to worry about eachother, the larger koi kind of hangs out by herself ( do you think i should get her a friend)? i feed them the tropical flakes and occasionally the dried up blood-worms bu not much of that because i am not familiar w/ them, but have read during research they are good for Angels, extra protein and other things that keep them healthier.

So, from the sounds of things, your water parameters haven't always been good. Correct? I am assuming this because you said that the water "finally" tested okay. That means to me that the fish was put into less than ideal water. That could also have been coupled with the fact that smaller fish do have a higher death rate just from attrition as well as genetics.
You said the last thing you did before the veil died was feed them. Did he eat? If not, the fish was already under stress and probably dying.
Have the fish that died been swimming and eating "normally" since you put them in the tank? Healthy fish will eat sometimes immediately upon being put into a new aquarium but usually, it's within a day before they start feeding again. Was this the case with the Angels that died?
As for where you got the fish, it shouldn't have mattered but between you , me and the lamp post, a good pet shop will have some kind of credit policy for fish they sell that may have been sick when sold. If this store doesn't, you may want to look for another to deal with. ( In the stores I worked in, Our policy was based on your water quality. If you had bad water and the fish died, it was not the blame of the store or the fish however, if you had good water and the fish died, we replaced it. Just an FYI)

I'm not convinced the fish was the problem but mixing the different sizes may have contributed to their demise. More digging needs to be done.
Let's continue with the answers to the questions I posed.

 

[amyb_70]

Ok. The ammonia was a little high at one point. So what I did was use a chemical called stability to bring it down, along with water changes. During this process I did not add any new fish. My focus was getting water where is best for angels. I learned that my water changes were soo large that I kept going back to my initial cycling as I was removing BB as well as not good bacteria. I would do at least 75% water changes every week. I also bought the ammonia removal pebbles and added that to the carbon in my filter. My water was good and where it should be for at least 3 weeks before I added the other angels. I assumed that would be sufficient time. When I bought them I put the bagged fish in the tank then in a bucket gradually adding my water to acclimate them properly. I don't mean to sound like it's the store but I've had several fish ( I learned everything the hard way, starting with adding tropical and cold water fish and the list goes on), but in all reality if the at least 10 fish I've purchased from there, the albino pleco has been around the longest at 3 weeks. They are the only store who will take in fish and unwanted items otherwise I wouldn't keep going back. I'm sure your right that it's not the store but so much bad experience opposed to positive it's frustrating. I could share stories but my concern is keeping the angels I have alive. They are not cheap. I have lots to learn , example I've had a hard time keeping guppies alive. Now that's just sad


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[Andy Sager]

I understand but you didn't answer my questions. I'm trying to figure out where the problem started. Behavior is a key indicator of fish health. The questions I asked all pertain to it. Swimming, breathing, eating....all play a role in diagnosing problems.
At this point, I would again assume that if you have good water parameters and the other Angels are acting and feeding "normally", then you should not be as concerned for their safety. It may end up, however, that you will need to be satisfied with just the 3 Angels you have while eventually needed to eliminate or remove the Koi if the other 2 decide to pair off and breed. A 29 gal tank is not large enough for a breeding pair and other Angelfish. That's just the nature of the beast.

 

[amyb_70]

Hi Andy, I'm sorry I got side tracked. As for the behaviors I'll start with the yellow veils, they both seemed fine when I added them to the tank they ate well and with no problems or skipping feeding they automatically took to eachother and spent their time being very close or near eachother. The other day I saw 1 of them at the lower end of a plant and not looking well, upon a closer look I saw a ghost shrimp nibbling at her fins. I removed the ghost shrimp and lead her toward her 'friend' who was eating. She seemed ehhh ok but soon was swimming upside down. The other one was very small and for the first several hours she hung out near the bottom in the corner. She kept to herself until I got one who was similar to her and she immediately began to swim freely. As for her feeding I was impressed at the size of flake food she was able to eat. She's the one who dies hours after partial water change. I assumed stress and my guess is she was still to small to leave her 'family home' tank. She was maybe the size of a dime. The black and marble are always together or close by eachother, both feed well and appear healthy and happy as all the others I've mentioned so far do. The larger koi I worry about, she seems to be a loner. Stays to herself. She does eat but not as eagerly as the others do. I was hoping that her and the yellow veil would friend up. Also note something very odd I have been searching my tank all evening for this angel and she is nowhere to be found. I went through the plants and lifted all caves and I can't find her. I also lost a pleco a few weeks ago. Still can't find that one. Anyway I hope this answers your questions better.


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