Breeding angelfish fight

[mrmaronick]

Hi guys I have a pair of angels that I have had for little over a year. They just started breeding 5 months ago. They have always gotten along just your typical chasing and sparing and showing dominance act. They put batches of eggs for 3 months none of them ever made it (not fertilized) consistently 2 weeks on the dot like clock work. And just out of the blue they stopped haven't seen a batch in over a month. Nothing changed parameters are all fine with weekly 30% water change. And just today I had to separate them. She nipped off half his back tail and a good quarter of his top fin in less then 3 hours!!! And had him pinned in the corner not letting him move at all. He was so wore out he didn't even fight the net when I went for him... He looks like he's ok now put him in a 30 gal community tank and put stress coat and melaflex or something like that its suppose to help with wounds and bit fins ect. Doing ok now. But why all the sudden would she pretty much wana kill her mate?! I'm lost... did I just lose my pair of breeders? Time apart? Frustration with not having babies after so long trying?

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[Bdonaldson]

Could be that she is upset that he is not doing his part in fertilizing the eggs. I would try another male if I were you. If they had three batches and none were fertilized there could be something wrong with the male. (Like he's infertile) That's just the way things go with Angels sometimes. If it were me I would have taken him out after the second batch didn't take. First batch I could understand that they were new at parenting and they were finding their way. Good luck and hope you get some babies again with another male.


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[mrmaronick]

Kinda what I was thinking Im going to let him heal and try again if its good its good. If not he'll have a new new home in the 30

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[ghyti]

They put batches of eggs for 3 months none of them ever made it (not fertilized) consistently 2 weeks on the dot like clock work. /QUOTE]

If the eggs were never fertilized, you could very well have two females. It is pretty unusual to have a male that is unable to fertilize the eggs.

 

[Bdonaldson]

I don't think it's two females. In general I think each species knows whether they are with a male or a female. I think the male either doesn't know what he is suppose to be doing or he is infertile.

MrMaronick it would be helpful if you could you provide pictures of the pair in question so it can be determined if you have a male and female or possibly two females.


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[mrmaronick]

I can try and put pictures up later tonight if they'll let me. I know one is the girl watched her lay them. The guy looks like a guys part but never gave a good enough look. He'll follow right behind her

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[Bdonaldson]

The male will have a bump on his head where the females head is straight. If you can see a bump on the males head then it's definitely a male.

This story may give you some perspective on how the mating process can be very stressful on the pair. Although this happened with my Blue Rams I've seen it happen with Angels also. And I think that may be what is happening with your pair.

I had two blue Rams in a 40 Gallon community tank and at the time I didn't know they were a pair until I saw them being aggressive toward the other fish and that usually means they are protecting something. Then I found the eggs. I immediately relocated all of the other fish in the tank and when the eggs hatched everything was fine until the male decided he would eat one of his babies. The female trapped him in a corner of the tank and just went after him with everything she had. When she was finished with him he knew never to do that again. After that the male was very attentive and watched over the babies very carefully.


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[mrmaronick]

Top pic is Clara. female. Second pic is plano. male in question. I can't tell maybe im looking to close but look the same to me and wife. so I looked at their private parts and his it triangled while hers is rounded. Looks like a little marshmallow

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[Bdonaldson]

In my opinion It does look like you have two females there. They both look like they are plump with eggs. Also the male doesn't plump up and generally is larger than the female


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[Andy Sager]

The male will have a bump on his head where the females head is straight. If you can see a bump on the males head then it's definitely a male.
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Actually, with today's fish, the hump only makes it "Probable" that's it's a male not "definite" as there are females that also show this characteristic. ( I tried to buy one to match with with a female I had and the shop clerk showed me pics of it laying eggs. )
That head hump is not even found on all male Angels. Some of my pairs have them and some don't. Even wild Scarlare don't all show a hump. So the only way to definitely 100% "Guarantee" the gender of today's Angelfish is to watch them spawn. Anything other than that is a 50/50 guess at best.

That said, if I were to pick these 2 fish, I would believe they are a male and female. Marble is Female and Silver is Male.


Hope this helps

Edit:
After hitting "post", I was able to enlarge the pic even more to get a better look at their anal areas. Here's another case where the old methods aren't holding true anymore. Both fish seem to have the anal fin positioned where they should be females but the op stated that the vents were differently shaped so the vents and tubes are going to have to sex these fish. So if the male's tube is short and pointed ( like the writing end of a pencil), then it's def a male. Female tubes will be short and blunt ( like a pencil eraser. )

 

[Bdonaldson]

After a closer look it's really hard to tell from the angle but I think the second picture does look like there is a little bit of a bump there. How long have you had them?


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[Bdonaldson]

Actually, with today's fish, the hump only makes it "Probable" that's it's a male not "definite" as there are females that also show this characteristic. ( I tried to buy one to match with with a female I had and the shop clerk showed me pics of it laying eggs. )

That head hump is not even found on all male Angels. Some of my pairs have them and some don't. Even wild Scarlare don't all show a hump. So the only way to definitely 100% "Guarantee" the gender of today's Angelfish is to watch them spawn. Anything other than that is a 50/50 guess at best.



That said, if I were to pick these 2 fish, I would believe they are a male and female. Marble is Female and Silver is Male.





Hope this helps

Thanks for that Andy. I never knew that they both could look the same although all of my males always had the hump on their head.


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[Andy Sager]

Thanks for that Andy. I never knew that they both could look the same although all of my males always had the hump on their head.


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I currently have 18 proven pairs and of those 18, only 3 have decernable humps. Like I said, it's not their natural look. I'm actually trying to breed that hump out of my lines. I don't like the way it looks.

 

[mrmaronick]

Silver angle is the female forsure. Watched her lay them and looks like a little marshmallow (pencil eraser). Marble kinda like a really dull pencil instead of sharp/pointed. He always followed behind her and looked like he was doing his duty. Have had both for over a year. Plano the marble is 3 months younger. Their is a noticeable dif in size more then a half inch

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[Andy Sager]

Silver angle is the female forsure. Watched her lay them and looks like a little marshmallow (pencil eraser). Marble kinda like a really dull pencil instead of sharp/pointed. He always followed behind her and looked like he was doing his duty. Have had both for over a year. Plano the marble is 3 months younger. Their is a noticeable dif in size more then a half inch

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Just goes to show how the fish have changed.
This one is a proven male:
Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community - Andy Sager's Album: New Angelfish - Picture

This one, also proven male: Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community - Andy Sager's Album: New Angelfish - Picture

This one, proven female is bottom fish:Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community - Andy Sager's Album: New Angelfish - Picture


Here, the pair with the female on the bottom. You can't see her head but both tubes are visible for comparison:
Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community - Andy Sager's Album: New Angelfish - Picture

if you look at the heads of all these fish, they are pretty similar to your Marble which is why sexing the fish is not so simple.

The following is a pic of a pair of wild scalare. Notice the head shapes as well: http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aquainfo/_System_Desktop Folder_George_gut7.jpg

Now look at your definite female and compare. You will how the fish is actually deformed and appears to have a male hump.
Just another example of how the fish has changed from all the years of domestic breeding without careful selection of the breeders.

 

[mrmaronick]

Wasn't trying to breed them. Just happened. The silver I got my wife for her mothers death.. The marble I got her for Valentine's day. Tryed in the same tank but did not go well. Silver got territorial in the tank by her self for the 3 months. So I put them in 2 ten gal tanks side by side for 2 months or so and tryed again. And boom it works they got along and next thing you know 300+ eggs on the filter tube a min after I shut it off for morning feeding. And always did it there after that first time I moved the plants made 10+ areas for them to do it but nope the pipe every time. Its interesting to watch. Had a hard time telling male female apart till it happened and to watch to see parts forsure does it matter that his part isn't a fine point like stated above. What's the chance of him just shooting blanks?

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[Andy Sager]

Nothing too unusual there. Typical behavior. As for just shooting blanks? it's possible but not too usual. Even a first timer has the potential for having at east 1 egg hatch. But a possible issue is the filter. I've found that HOB filters tend to move too much water and my theory is that they pull the milt away too soon. Most breeders will use air driven sponge filters instead of other filter types so that the water is filtered but not with rapid water movement. Have you seen the fish spawning without turning off the filter?

Assuming the spawning is done every time without the filter being on, there are combinations where the fish do produce sterile eggs. Another possibility can come from certain medications sterilizing the fish. Then there is also the possibility that both are females. Are you sure you haven't seen the marble laying eggs right behind the male? (altho 2 females only producing 300 eggs in a spawn is highly unlikely. My first double female pair produced over 500 eggs on their first spawn. )

If you want to be certain of their fertility, you will need to give the fish something else to spawn on and artificially hatch them out in a separate container. Once you get that first egg to hatch, then you know they are fertile ( but not veral) and may do better as they mature.
For a more inclusive read about breeding Angels, try reading this thread: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f82/wigglers-at-last-237956.html
This was an ongoing discussion by both pro and hobbyist breeders and just about everything you need to know was discussed on that thread.

Hope this helps.

 

[mrmaronick]

Only when filter was off and I left off till they were done. He def was not laying eggs but didn't see any white out of it either. Could have been that many eggs I lost count after 300.I have not had to treat tank for anything but dechlorinate And thanks I'll read the thread soon

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[Andy Sager]

Only when filter was off and I left off till they were done. He def was not laying eggs but didn't see any white out of it either. Could have been that many eggs I lost count after 300.I have not had to treat tank for anything but dechlorinate And thanks I'll read the thread soon

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They don't seem to have white milt as other fish do so you probably wouldn't see anything coming from his tube. I do a "fertility test" for new pairs by removing a spawn and checking for just 1 live fry. That proves all I need to know at that point. You'll read about it in the Wigglers thread. I think you may need to do the same to put an end to the questions. Happy reading.