in breeding in fish

[lynda orourke]

A fairly random thought occurred to me on the bus ride home, is in breeding a problem in fish?

I was thinking, you go into an aquarium shop and buy a few fish of the same breed at the same time they probably come from the same source and so could be related. Assuming the are a type that breeds readily you then end up with fry which you sell back to the shop, then some else comes in and dose exactly the same thing, you could end up with some very inbreed fish.

I know this can be a problem with mice, (you by two “females” and two weeks later you have 20 mice), and in mice I know it causes tumours.

have any of you had any problems with inbreed fish?

[Innovator]

I cannot remember exactly, but I believe genetic concerns are raised by the 4th or 8th generation and climb steadily from there on with tumors and body disfigurations apparent with fry. Someone call me on this as I don't remember specific numbers for certain.

[CatatonicBug]

I know it works in Silkworms, after several generations they start to have missing half-segments, so they look like they are bent one direction.

[thatmagicguy]

I think at this point we are seeing an industry wide problem in the fish stocks as a result of inbreeding and indiscriminate pairings of fish. In the old days breeders would be very careful to used separate lineages to produce superior fish, there was a competitive spirit among breeders to produce the biggest and prettiest fish. Those days, sadly, are gone. No longer are breeders infusing wild stock and building up genetic lines. Most of our fish will soon be coming from the far east where cheap labour and profit is the word of the day, rather than quality. And as long as we keep buying these inferior fish the market will stand.

I have been an open and loud advocate of the hobbyist breeder, and I continuously speak out against giving the breeder "store credit". Usually hobbist raised fish are far superior to milled fish from wholesalers and the hobbyist should be paid a fair wholesale price for their fish. It is nothing but profitable for everyone if stores buy fish from local breeders as opposed to wholesale establishments that refuse to provide the highest possible quality fish.

A store stands to profit because as the hobbyist is paid for their fish it cultivates an active interest to further their hobby and more tanks need to be bought and all the supplies and food etc.

Anyway, to answer your question, yes.

Bill

[lynda orourke]

Yes but

I agree big business and animal welfare don’t go together unless there are a lot of legalization and checks in place (why bother worrying about genetic lines if the fish sell anyway), but isn’t the amateur hobbyist likely to inbreed as well, though a lack of understanding of genetic diversity?

[thatmagicguy]

I think there is some truth to your concern at this point in the hobby's history. However, the store owner, in cultivating a hobbyist's interest in breeding for profit and for interest, can guide a hobbyist in selecting fish as breeders. Many fish, tetras come to mind, do not seem to suffer the consequences of inbreeding quickly, that is, we don't see deterioration in strains as much as we do in say,,,livebearers.

It has been demonstrated, at least here in the usa, that even in small markets, when demand from the wholesalers reduces, the wholesalers ears perk and they investigate quickly why there is a sudden drop in sales. I think that an aquarium society in a given area, that has an appreciable amount of members, can quickly develop a breeding program on a local level to supply stores in that area with most bread and butter fish. These fish, not faced with the careless rigors of being handled by the wholesalers will be much healthier and the retail outlets will see this quickly. This will have an adverse effect on sales at the wholesale level and they do indeed take notice. I have personally put in the past, a dent on dubious wholesalers here in my area by providing stores with the top 3-4 species that move and they have quickly investigated the drop in sales.

One obsticle we face here in the usa is the big box stores who are working hard to face the reality that customers quickly learn that quality counts. They still however, refuse to buy from local breeders for the most part. There are a few very small exceptions, but when buying decisions are made at a corporate level then quality always suffers.

Hope this helps. Bill

[kimo]

"They still however, refuse to buy from local breeders for the most part. There are a few very small exceptions, but when buying decisions are made at a corporate level then quality always suffers."

Ignorance is golden... as long as the bosses get their bonuses at the end of the year. Hit them up with a lawsuit (it IS illegal to sell diseased fish) and see how fast they change their tune...

[haykay]

huh..really? I had no idea it was actually illegal. I have a problem with this issue myself. as I have never bred any of my fish, but am concerned about my recent investment of live bearers.. If you have no fish clubs that you can find and no local breeders making themselves known how does one go about "purifying" strains?

[kimo]

Originally Posted by haykay

huh..really? I had no idea it was actually illegal. I have a problem with this issue myself. as I have never bred any of my fish, but am concerned about my recent investment of live bearers.. If you have no fish clubs that you can find and no local breeders making themselves known how does one go about "purifying" strains?

Problem is: who is going to go to all the trouble (and cost) of small claims court, getting accurate and necessary PROOF of infection before purchase, etc.... over a $4.00 fish? The lfs owners know which tank is infected and the good ones at least isolate and treat them. Quality over quantity is the name of the game. Unfortunately some chain stores don't even bother to get the dead ones out, let alone treat any that are sick. Some hire people who are not knowledgable > OJT (on the job training) until after the fact.

"how does one go about "purifying" strains?"

I coud write a book about that one. A little knowledge of genetics helps, knowing the history of the fish you are breeding, keeping thorough and accurate records, knowing the difference between heterozygotic and homozygotic and how to change one to the other. Easiest way is to find the best pair of fish and go from there. Back cross, line cross, outcross are just some of the ways.

[black hills tj]

I became interested in breeding bristlenose pleco's about a year ago. Last summer I made sure to purchase 5 pleco's from different spawns. Unfortunately 2 of them died. However, as they grow near a year of age and sexual maturity, I have purchased 10 more from multiple strains. My hopes are to successfully spawn these fish and keep the bloodlines from crossing with each other to avoid aforementioned "inbreeding."

Once I can repeat successful spawns, I hope to distribute them both locally and nationally.