line breeding guppies general questions

[slippryjack]

Hello all! Sorry in advance for the lengthy post; I have yet to find a comprehensive guide that answers all of my following questions. The questions I have is mostly just stuff I couldn't find specific information on. If you feel the is something important I haven't considered, please feel free to share your perspective.

I have recently taken an interest in breeding guppies. My experience with keeping and breeding live-bearers is novice at best. I want to start a line breeding experiment to see if I can improve upon an existing strain or at least maintain the strain without depreciating the genetics of the stock I begin with. Another goal is to see two distinct lines develop from the original trio and out-cross those lines to hopefully end up with fish very similar to the originals.

I plan on starting with a trio of guppies and using a line breeding system. I have spent countless hours researching this topic and it seems a lot of the information I have come across can vary greatly depending on the individual breeder. When I begin this experiment(next 1-2 months) I want to give myself the best chance I can to succeed and hopefully avoid any oversights.

1- When beginning with a breeding trio, I understand that I will breed the male with the 2 females and that the offspring from each female will be separated to begin their own lines. My first set of questions are, do breeders continue breeding the original trio after the first set of drops? I understand it is wise to keep the male around as long as possible in order to back-cross after a few generations, but what about the females? Are they culled from the breeding program after the F1 generation is dropped? Are they(P1 MFF trio) just kept as a breeding trio in a 5g in case of disaster? I don't want to keep breeding the original trio after I get the first batch of drops of F1 generation- the goal is to develop 2 distinct variations stemming from 1 trio.

2- How many tanks would I need to do what I am trying to do? I have come across many different answers to this common question, and the answer seems to be "a minimum of between 6-10", but that isn't nearly specific enough for my liking. I assume I would be breeding the best male to the best female of each drop for each line for 3-5 generations before out-crossing the two lines together. I also assume I would be separating the male and female fry of each line in order to control breeding. Do breeders use separate grow-out tanks for the F1, F2, F3 etc. generations? Again, assuming I am only keeping the best 1-2 males and best 2-4 females of each generation, what size grow out tanks would be appropriate?

3- What do you do with the fish after their offspring has been bred? e.g.: what do you do with F1 males and females of each line once the F3 batch of fry have been dropped? Remove from breeding program?

4- last group of questions(for now)- are there any strains of guppies you would advise a beginner to stay away from? Solid color guppies seem sort of boring to me. I really love cobra, snakeskin, medusa/galaxy, grass, and mosaic patterns, so I would hope to find a strong stable and proven strain from one of those groups to begin with. The medusa variation is my favorite but I wonder if they are more difficult to maintain than other strains.

Thanks for your time reading this and thank you in advance for any advice or info you may be able to provide!

 

[GreenGo]

Slippryjack,

I'm going to be doing a very similar thing, except with panther crabs and other IUCN Redlist animals in our aquatic hobby. However, I think I can provide some assistance.

(1) personally, I don't think it'd be a bad idea to keep the original trio, but if you do only want to breed them once (which from my understanding you do) be sure to separate the females into their own tank after they breed. Guppies can store sperm, so even if they're virgins (which isn't guaranteed, so you may want to separate them at first to be certain) they will probably drop multiple batches of offspring from the initial male.

In my breeding program, I'll be breeding my three trios (FMF) almost continuously since I have slightly different goals than you, but I'll still line breed and out-cross with fresh crabs to ensure the genetic material isn't depreciated.

(2) to ensure you have the most success with controlling the virginity and line of the guppies, and in order to selectively breed like you desire, you will at least need three separate tanks for each batch of offspring. For instance, for a trio (MFF) you will need 3 x 2 tanks AT LEAST (one for the offspring to grow out in until you can determine the sex, and two for M and F to separate into). For guppies, you should be able to get away with a 20 long for both grow outs (just put a divider in the middle and it should be enough room for both batches) and two ten gallons for each batch's M F offspring. That way you can get 5 tanks instead of six and potentially save some money for the first batch.

However, you'll likely need to repeat this process for each subsequent generation FOR EACH LINE, and you'll also need cull tanks for those you don't want.

So, for two lines with keeping (from your assumption) the best 1-2 males and 2-4 females of each filial (Fx) generation (i.e. F1, F2, F3, F4), you'll need to keep the males and females separate for most of their lives (so you'll need two tanks for each line, i.e. 4 tanks) until you breed them. Afterwards, you should probably separate the females again until they drop their young and should keep them separate for each probable subsequent drop. So, in addition to the 4 original tanks, you could possibly reuse the 20 Long you originally used for the F1 batch (which you're breeding at this point) to grow out in until you could sex them. However, since you're now breeding 2-4 females you may need an additional 20L (if you keep and breed 4; but if you keep and breed 2 you'll be fine). Again, you'll need to have additional 10 gallons to allow them to grow out fully when you sex them and subsequently separate them.

Just a tip:
-Don't cull the young until they grow out fully to ensure you have the best males and females. They may look more attractive when they've grown out and may match the parents or the desired traits better.
-For the cull tank you may get away with a 40 breeder, as it's large enough to house a ton of guppies until you're able to get rid of them. Just don't release them into any native bodies of water! If you can't sell them or don't have any fish to feed them to, put a few at a time in a bag half full of water and stick them in the freezer. The cold will cause the guppies to 'hibernate' and is a humane way to kill guppies.
-You may also put the bred females in the cull tank if you want, but again, don't add them until they've dropped at least two to three batches to ensure you have the best offspring for the same reasons as above, though it may not be necessary. If you do decide to follow my recommendation and allow the 'secondary' batches to grow out to see if they're more desirable, I'd also recommend setting a separate aquarium to grow them out in, but it's not necessary due to being the exact same as their brothers and sisters that would already be partially grown out by that time.

Summary
Line 1 (1st F, P): 3 tanks + half 20L (two for sexed offspring, one for parent to remain separate from P breeding M, and half 20L for non-sexed offspring [divided in half for line 2 offspring])

Line 2 (2nd F, P): same as above

F1: 10 gal x2 (MF sexed offspring) 10 gal x2 (MF sexed offspring
Line 1 (1st F, P) Line 2 (2nd F, P)
M (only need one tank) F (same as P F above*) M/F (same as Line 1)
*may be able to reuse some P tanks used to raise the guppies you'd be breeding now

F2: same as F1

F3: same as F2 and previous

So, total: 6x10 gal + 20 L for P breeding (both lines included), for F1 only need to purchase 1 extra 20 L if you keep more than the two best females with associated 10 gal aquariums (i.e. half 20 L and 6 x 10 gal go together), for F2 and beyond same as F1 but once you get to F3 (or whenever you get rid of F1 like you mentioned for question cluster 3) you may be able to reuse some tanks.

(3) You have multiple options. You could continue to breed them, you could cull them or put them in a temporary holding tank, or you can sell them to try to get a bit of profit (be sure you keep the males and females separate even while shipping to make sure the females are virgins. You may be able to fetch a higher price if you can guarantee their virginity with proof and documentation (videos, live streams/web cams, paper or similar, etc) and include a replacement or money-back policy or similar, but it won't be by much (maybe $0.50-$2 more). However, each little bit helps )

(4) In my opinion, there isn't a fish or invert beginners should stay away from IF THEY RESEARCH THEM PROPERLY BEFOREHAND. See, I got my first panther crabs (not generally considered a 'beginner' crab) before I kept crabs, and was decent with them. However, I also made just about every novice mistake in the book of novice mistakes one could make with crabs. In my mind, though, it just means I'm absolutely ready to breed them this time around.

However, I also spent SIX MONTHS researching exclusively panther crabs while they were out of stock. I was as ready as I could be when I finally got them.

With you, slippryjack, it sounds like you've done your research, so the only thing that should stop you from getting your favorite guppy strain is your local water quality and budget. You should realize by now, breeding isn't cheap since you need so many tanks, but at least you have potential to make a profit. That being said, your budget will definitely be a deciding factor in how you choose to do things (for example, you could use plastic bins instead of 40 breeder aquariums for the culls, as plastic bins are MUCH cheaper and thus are available on a lower budget).

Lastly, the reason I mention the water quality where you're at is due to many strains of fancy guppies being line breed and selectively bred for so long they can't stand as wide a range of water parameters as wild guppies and the first several generations of line bred guppies could. That means you'll need pristine water (lots of water changes) with very specific parameters.

Since you plan to cross-breed between lines, that may not be an issue, but to make it easier (and to possibly make the guppies a bit more hardy) I'd suggest after a few generations or a period of time getting another batch from a different seller that preferentially doesn't use the same supplier as the first. I plan to do this with all of my breeding projects to ensure I don't depreciate the genetics of my animals, especially because I plan to check into possibly exporting them to their native habitats to help boost the wild populations if they are or if they become endangered or critically endangered (I may also export them to reestablish wild populations if the population recently became EW [extinct in the wild], but by recently I mean within the last couple [1-2] years because ecosystems do change rather rapidly to compensate and it may not be suitable/the same habitat within 5-10 years after a species disappears).

 

[brennae]

I'm sorry I have to skim here but, the IFGA has some articles you both mat be interested in. You don't have to be a member to access all of them.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[slippryjack]

GreenGo- thank you for such a thorough response to my questions! Good answers!