Panther Crab (Parathelphusa pantherina) breeding project

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What about dwarf water lettuce? For the fry. I have tons. It's not small like duckweed but grows like mad also.

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What about dwarf water lettuce? For the fry. I have tons. It's not small like duckweed but grows like mad also.

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Could you post some pics? I have two updates I'm planning this weekend in two or three posts, primarily due to too many pics for one post (the limit is 16, and I have like 20-something :lol: ). I'll post them on Saturday. Let's just say I think I'm going to need to start selling plants before I get the live animals :hide: (I think the crabs will come in stock in the spring, and I'll be ready for 'em)

But yeah, if you could post pics I'll consider it :D (even without the pics I may consider it, since I know you've had issues posting pics before). I'll let you know by Saturday :)

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Sorry didn't see this right away because I was feeding the fish etc. I'll take a pic of the roots for you tomorrow.



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Alright, so I totally revamped my setup, at least for now. I wanted to use less electricity, have less trouble with mosquitoes, have less maintenance, and get better growth, though I'm starting to doubt my original estimates on the "better growth".

Pics of the revamp:
Before




During


















After







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Alright, so basically what I did was combine all the water from roughly five of the nine 10 gal into the 20 long I had sitting around, and put the rest in two of the remaining four 10 gal to allow the driftwood to stay soaked. I'm not concerned with the tannis or black water in the driftwood tank since I'm never going to use that water anyhow, but I'll change it every week or so to ensure it doesn't stain the aquarium.

After that, I caught all the guppies from the 75 gal and put them in the 20 gal long, which in the future will hold the shrimp I'll breed and sell to my lfs. I also moved the heaters to my 20 long, and put a few 10 gal rated filters on the tanks. I will be doing something new with those in the next couple weeks, so stay tuned for that!

Lastly, I put the 8000K lighting on the tank (which I actually did when I was first setting the aquarium up, but I'm mentioning it last) thinking it'd help the moss and hornwort to grow since it seemed to be the best lighting from my other setup, but I didn't account for the depth of the 20 long compared to the moss being just on the surface of the ten gallons. Since I'm only using one bulb, though (vs 3 t8 and one reg), I'll be able to use this light for a while and will have the ability to change it out with my other bulbs if needed before I get it back into the previous configuration when I get my crabs.

So, while we're on the topic of lights, I'm going to be purchasing some LED lighting for the actual panther crab build (and all my other builds), and was wondering which lights I should get. I'm looking into some t8 replacement bulbs, but the highest 2ft option is 5000K, and y'all have recommended at least 6500K. There is a 4ft LED light at that rating, but all I need is the 2ft option. Would this work?

Also, I may just go the CFL LED option, which I'd need to purchase a couple more clip-on lamps (as you can see in my pic above), and I'd need at least two per level of my build. Since I'll have three aquariums side-by-side, I'll need two CFLs to shine into two of the aquariums at the same time, effectively doubling the amount of light I'll need, and it'll also mean the middle aquarium will get the most light and thus most likely the lushest growth. It'll be tricky to get the lighting just right, but I have a few more options as far as the CFLing goes. I think I can get one with more lumens for just a few dollars more per bulb.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on the lighting and the revamp? I'm glad I did it when I did, though, because right after I did (Tue morn) we had our coldest night yet (Tue night), and I'm not sure the heaters would've been up for the job (i.e. I probably would've lost some moss).

Thanks for any advice in advance! I'm looking forward to continuing to document this build, and am looking forward to the spring when I'll probably get the crabs! Also, I have one more update this weekend, and then we'll be set for what's coming up in the future (even more tanks, actually starting to sell/ship, and even more animals and plants! [with accompanying threads and profiles as needed, of course]) :dance:
 
I think 5000K should be fine.

Also, mosses like cooler temperatures. I know Java can tolerate high temps, though.


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Here's the update you've been waiting for!

So, I went ahead and bought some frogbit off ebay for $6.50, and it came with (and I quote) "FREE Sample of D. Weed" :lol: I must say, though, it's an ingenious way to get rid of your duckweed, having the lowest cost plus a free "sample" (you'll understand when I show you the pics ;) )

Here's the pics of the purchase (Note: I didn't weigh anything, but I'm sure I got at least 2-3 grams of the duckweed)


*I absolutely love people who reuse boxes they already have! <3 Sustainability aspect? Over 9000! ;)


*another fine example of recycling. Man, already this seller is a 10/10 in my book, at least for reusing what they already had (seriously)


*a peek inside the bag


*everything laid out on top the grocery bag


*the auction was for 6 amazon frogbit. I like and appreciate how the seller included a bit extra :)


*the frogbit in its new home

now, I didn't take a pic of the duckweed, but there was enough to cover about half to two-thirds of my 75 gal the guppies and hornwort used to be in! That's a bit more than a "sample" of duckweed! :ROFLMAO: That's why I'm saying ingenious on the part of the seller. If you're reading this, congrats! I'd just be concerned that someone may try to wash it down the sink or dispose of it in a non-safe way

Now, on to business:
I think 5000K should be fine.

Also, mosses like cooler temperatures. I know Java can tolerate high temps, though.


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Fish, do you think this light may work better than the 8000K I currently have over the tank?

*it's a 4200K, but has good peaks in the blue and red spectrums. I know the color temp doesn't mean much tho

As far as the LED replacement, I did a cost analysis of the t8 fluorenscent vs LED bulb, and for the same watts over the life of the bulb, the LED was cheaper. I think I'll go ahead and get the LED t8 replacement if y'all think that'll be fine

:thanks: for reading! Stay :cool: (cool) y'all (sorry for teh pun :ROFLMAO: ). :dance:
 
I'm not sure about the light but I don't think there would be much of a problem. People have used 2700k without issue.

Nice frogbit! Just so ya know, over time the old leaves will die off, but by then the young ones will come through. Meaning, after a few weeks, your plants will be completely "different" (all the leaves will have grown while in your tank and all the old ones will have slowly died). At least that's my experience.

My names Alex BTW. :)


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I'm not sure about the light but I don't think there would be much of a problem. People have used 2700k without issue.

Nice frogbit! Just so ya know, over time the old leaves will die off, but by then the young ones will come through. Meaning, after a few weeks, your plants will be completely "different" (all the leaves will have grown while in your tank and all the old ones will have slowly died). At least that's my experience.

My names Alex BTW. :)


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Nice to meet you Alex! My name is Jacob, though I like GreenGo because it's the reciprocal (opposite) of Go Green (I'm a huge sustainability nut, and am getting a minor in such. I think it's due to my last name actually being Green, so I'm just trying to live it :lol: ), and it lets people know I'm a legit white guy (in case you couldn't tell by my feet getting captured in some pics :ROFLMAO: ). Also, I just noticed (like earlier today) GreenGo has the initials GG, which is "good game" if you're a gamer or know one. Love it! :lol:

Yeah, I was kinda wondering about the leaves -- they didn't seem too healthy/green. That definitely makes sense though. Thanks. :) Hopefully we'll be seeing some growth on my plants soon.

Does anyone have any advice on how to ship? I hope to start selling/trading some plants on this forum so I can get used to it before I try to start making a profit with the crabs and shrimps. I'd like to know the ins and outs of shipping before I try shipping live animals as well. Do you know if I need a license? I'd like to keep everything legit, and I'll be doing this as a business in the future, so might as well get one if needed. I have read somewhere you need a license to ship across state borders, but can't find the website to contact them about it. ??? Anyway, I'm looking into USPS and UPS, but have ruled out FedEx since they don't normally ship live animals. Again, I'd rather not "sneak" it by or anything.

Any advice? I know about the packaging, I'm just trying to find the company with the most cost effective policy, but the customer service matters as well (especially the part where my package gets to the customer without delay, damage, or similar).

:thanks:

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That's a ton of duckweed!

I was just thinking I need a tutorial on shipping fish. I have the snails and plants down. I also need bags. Do you have a supply of bags GG? Where is everyone getting bags? Aquabid or is there a cheaper place?

And yeah don't try to pull one over on FedEx. I'm still irritated that a seller did that to me with a fish that cost a decent chunk of change.

Will you only ship seasonally or will you need the heat packs and cold packs? It seems the warmers hunters use last longer than the "fish" labeled ones but I'm not experienced in this so I don't know. Thoughts?

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Plants are easy. Just take them out of the tank and lay them on some newspaper or paper towel, fold the paper over, and spray/dribble just enough water over the paper so that the paper is wet but the water doesn't pool up in the bag they are in.

Styrofoam insulation helps with temperature, but people also use heat/cold packs in the winter/summer. I've never done that and I'm not sure how exactly it works.

All I know about shipping fish is that you are supposed to use Kordon breather bags. Maybe that will point you in the right direction?

As for licenses, I know with plants you can't ship invasive species but otherwise you don't need a license unless you have an actual nursery. Be careful because there are separate national and state invasive species lists, so you can ship some plants to some states but not others. Yay for federalism!

And, I've only ever used USPS and have not once had a late or lost package.


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That's a ton of duckweed!

I was just thinking I need a tutorial on shipping fish. I have the snails and plants down. I also need bags. Do you have a supply of bags GG? Where is everyone getting bags? Aquabid or is there a cheaper place?

And yeah don't try to pull one over on FedEx. I'm still irritated that a seller did that to me with a fish that cost a decent chunk of change.

Will you only ship seasonally or will you need the heat packs and cold packs? It seems the warmers hunters use last longer than the "fish" labeled ones but I'm not experienced in this so I don't know. Thoughts?

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I know right?! That seller sure knows how to get rid of it, that's for sure :ROFLMAO:


I don't have a supply of fish bags, no. However, in my research I did come across http://www.amazon.com/Breather-Shipment-Transportation-Aquatic-Breathingthis product from amazon.
but one reviewer said they were garbage and can split easily as one of the shipments he bought from did. My guess is that anyone using these bags should BE SURE they are secure and won't move around in transit, else that reviewer's comments may come true for you. Here's the website to the original http://www.kordon.com/kordon/products/aquarium-pond-accessories-2/breathing-bags#suppliers!Kordon bags.
I'd love to see a comparison of the two products like the amazon product says to! I do see a silver lining to these bags, though. I once read somewhere that a package almost got shipped back, but the lady at the post office didn't realize the box had water in it until the individual picked up the package. With the breather bags, there's no sloshing, so you *may* be able to get away with it, though I wouldn't recommend trying. I'm pretty sure this shipment was via USPS, and I guess that specific facility didn't have the protection against water spills, but it's always a good idea to ship with something to soak up any water if needed, and have a DOA policy in place.

As far as seasonal or year round, I'm not sure yet, I guess that'll mainly depend on demand and when people want to purchase them. Good question! I honestly hadn't thought that far ahead, but taking my stance of getting used to shipping, I'll likely ship seasonal at first and sell to y'all year round just so I can get used to it :lol: I really do hope y'all don't mind being my guinea pigs :ROFLMAO: though, you'll only have to pay shipping, as I won't be too mean and make you purchase the organism with profits included. That'll come after I'm comfortable ;)




Plants are easy. Just take them out of the tank and lay them on some newspaper or paper towel, fold the paper over, and spray/dribble just enough water over the paper so that the paper is wet but the water doesn't pool up in the bag they are in.

Styrofoam insulation helps with temperature, but people also use heat/cold packs in the winter/summer. I've never done that and I'm not sure how exactly it works.

All I know about shipping fish is that you are supposed to use Kordon breather bags. Maybe that will point you in the right direction?

As for licenses, I know with plants you can't ship invasive species but otherwise you don't need a license unless you have an actual nursery. Be careful because there are separate national and state invasive species lists, so you can ship some plants to some states but not others. Yay for federalism!

And, I've only ever used USPS and have not once had a late or lost package.


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Brenna, this basically says the just of shipping, as it's practically the same with plants. The only difference is the http://www.kensfish.com/cgi-kensfis...786&ss_parm=Ae3e73819ad333e11cb8709e0d39b62b6heat pack if needed and breather bags (above) vs wrapping in paper towel. To be on the safe side I'd go the route of testing the heat pack by freezing it or stimulating different temps to ensure it'll last the advertised length of time. Of course, this coming from a dedicated scientist who loves his aquatic pets, ERM, children :lol:

Thanks for the input Alex!

Edit: Of course, the links didn't insert like I wanted, :facepalm: but I do need to add one thing: with live animals, be sure they can't move! I know I mentioned that above, but in case you didn't read it all be sure they can't move. Use newspaper or packing peanuts, or similar, but it's very important to limit movement so the breather bags don't rip

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That was a LONG read. Maybe I missed it but I agree with what Alex/FishPerson said. What I do to ship my plants is pretty simple and though I've only shipped 3 times the plants have always done good.


1. I do USPS 2 day priority shipping.
2. Select what plants I want and make sure they are healthy
3. Get a few news papers.
4.Get some pages and spray them LIGHTLY. Enough that you can tell their wet but make sure that when you squeeze the paper little to no water comes out
5. Lightly spray the plants
6. Lay them in the middle of the news paper and wrap them so that none of the plant is showing and it's kinda tight.
7. Wrap it all with a damp but not too damp newspaper. Put this in a sandwich bag and then put that in a sandwich bag too. Label what's in the bag accordingly. A small description and what it
Looks like is always appreciated. (I need to start doing that)
8. If you have bubble wrap handy it's nice to wrap that around the sand which bags
Then put in the box close it and send it!

This is just what I do. Methods vary. I believe you guys said you got it down.

I hear that most people double and triple wrap in those breather bags. Then they add methylene blue. Pure oxygen from a tank and then wrap in news paper and send. Like GG said you want minimal movement space. A lot of people don't feed their fish 2 days prior to shipping as to mantain low levels of poop and pee so the fish has a maximized chance of living. I have no idea what they do with heat and cold packs so can't help there


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I've actually only received fish in a breather bag once. They usually always come double bagged in regular thicker fish store bags.
Edit: I've mail ordered a lot of fish. The heat and or cold packs get placed with packing material against the fish and then the packs so they don't overheat or cool the fish.
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Well, I'll probably purchase a set of regular and invertobsession breather bags, and if nothing else I'll have something to use to raise the crablets in. Yes, I'm already thinking about that :lol:

I guess we'll see if the breather bags are thick enough to ship live animals in. It's especially important with crabs, though, as their legs can easily puncture a lesser bag

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I recently ordered otocinclus from InvertObsession aka Aquatic Arts. They put the breather bags in styrofoam takeout cups with perforated lids and nestled those in the insulation. Worked a treat!
 
I recently ordered otocinclus from InvertObsession aka Aquatic Arts. They put the breather bags in styrofoam takeout cups with perforated lids and nestled those in the insulation. Worked a treat!

I'll need to look into that! Sounds ingenious

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I'm currently toying with the idea of having multiple moss species, that way I have some diversity (might help with identifying individuals if the spots on these crabs aren't unique to the individual crabs), something I can base my breeding efforts on as a sort of category system, as well as multiple types of moss to eventually sell so I can potentially make a bit more cash to pay for everything.

I'm considering implementing each type of moss into the moss wall, and having a different type of moss for every wall. Thus, for my currently planned nine aquariums I'll need nine different types of moss. If I need more, well, that may become an issue :lol:

An example of the category breeding portfolio would be this:
Wall 1, top level middle* (males will be in the middle, so we'll know this individual is a male in this example), java moss
Wall 2, top level right^, Christmas moss
*remember, I'm planning three tanks per level with three levels total, though this may change
^females will be on either side of the males probably, just to make less transport time when I set them up on their blind dates ;)

Event: breed *java moss* crab with *Christmas moss* crab. When *Christmas* female releases the crablets, put in separate rearing containers and take a sample of the *java* and *Christmas moss* walls. Now, either two things can be done: (1) grow both types of moss in the rearing containers with the crablets (preferred, as this'll give me more product to sell at a later time, and I could do something cool if these projects become famous [or just cuz ;) ]. What, exactly? Glad you asked! When I ship the crabs to their new home, I could include a sample of the genealogy of the crab for the crab to hold on to, thus creating a sort of tracking system), or (2) I could frame the genealogy of the crab, either dried or live in a vial for further documentation. I think the former is better due to the micro-life that'd be present on the moss, therefore furthering the crablet's survival (around 50% die in their first molt :( ). However, I'll probably incorporate all of this into something HUGE and cool. Ya kno? :cool:

Alright, enough of me trying to be coolio :lol: but seriously, how far should I take this? I'm willing to go all out, but how many DIFFERENT mosses are available that are fairly easy to identify based on their growth patterns, visible characteristics, etc, so I'm not spending an hour trying to figure out which moss I'm looking at? I kind of need to know the limitations of my idea as far as how many different aquariums I can set up, and I'm currently at college right now, so I'd appreciate some input from some of you who may know.

As always, :thanks: Have an awesome day!

PS, I'm super pumped, as I'm starting to think this thread may get some life and not need to go practically dormant until the crabs come in stock. I'll try to draw out some plans so you can get a visual of how I plan to set everything up, how everything will work, how I'm planning to raise the crablets, etc. In other words, I'm going to finish my project proposal, but also write up some hard copy, good ol'fashioned lab writeup where I'll outline my procedures and ALL! I'M SUUUPER PUMPED! Only thing better? This semester is almost out so I'll have even more time to get you the updates you deserve. I may even resurrect my YouTube channel, who knows? (Probably not, but we'll see ;) )

Are you excited?! Stay tuned!

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I'm currently toying with the idea of having multiple moss species, that way I have some diversity (might help with identifying individuals if the spots on these crabs aren't unique to the individual crabs), something I can base my breeding efforts on as a sort of category system, as well as multiple types of moss to eventually sell so I can potentially make a bit more cash to pay for everything.

I'm considering implementing each type of moss into the moss wall, and having a different type of moss for every wall. Thus, for my currently planned nine aquariums I'll need nine different types of moss. If I need more, well, that may become an issue :lol:

An example of the category breeding portfolio would be this:
Wall 1, top level middle* (males will be in the middle, so we'll know this individual is a male in this example), java moss
Wall 2, top level right^, Christmas moss
*remember, I'm planning three tanks per level with three levels total, though this may change
^females will be on either side of the males probably, just to make less transport time when I set them up on their blind dates ;)

Event: breed *java moss* crab with *Christmas moss* crab. When *Christmas* female releases the crablets, put in separate rearing containers and take a sample of the *java* and *Christmas moss* walls. Now, either two things can be done: (1) grow both types of moss in the rearing containers with the crablets (preferred, as this'll give me more product to sell at a later time, and I could do something cool if these projects become famous [or just cuz ;) ]. What, exactly? Glad you asked! When I ship the crabs to their new home, I could include a sample of the genealogy of the crab for the crab to hold on to, thus creating a sort of tracking system), or (2) I could frame the genealogy of the crab, either dried or live in a vial for further documentation. I think the former is better due to the micro-life that'd be present on the moss, therefore furthering the crablet's survival (around 50% die in their first molt :( ). However, I'll probably incorporate all of this into something HUGE and cool. Ya kno? :cool:

Alright, enough of me trying to be coolio :lol: but seriously, how far should I take this? I'm willing to go all out, but how many DIFFERENT mosses are available that are fairly easy to identify based on their growth patterns, visible characteristics, etc, so I'm not spending an hour trying to figure out which moss I'm looking at? I kind of need to know the limitations of my idea as far as how many different aquariums I can set up, and I'm currently at college right now, so I'd appreciate some input from some of you who may know.

As always, :thanks: Have an awesome day!

PS, I'm super pumped, as I'm starting to think this thread may get some life and not need to go practically dormant until the crabs come in stock. I'll try to draw out some plans so you can get a visual of how I plan to set everything up, how everything will work, how I'm planning to raise the crablets, etc. In other words, I'm going to finish my project proposal, but also write up some hard copy, good ol'fashioned lab writeup where I'll outline my procedures and ALL! I'M SUUUPER PUMPED! Only thing better? This semester is almost out so I'll have even more time to get you the updates you deserve. I may even resurrect my YouTube channel, who knows? (Probably not, but we'll see ;) )

Are you excited?! Stay tuned!

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Yeah this thread was kinda dead.. not gonna lie. I like the moss idea.... I think its pretty innovative personally. I think this thread seemed dead because this is a pretty unusual idea. I think a lot of us have never even heard of Panther crabs much less breeding them. Ik I haven't.

Back to the Mosses idea. A problem will be that you will want to get a lot of mosses. A lot of mosses are pretty slow growers. Pretty sure Christmas moss is a slow grower. I'm not really a moss expert however so I recommend making a thread about this on the planted tank part of this forum. A couple types of moss you can incorporate are Fissidens Fontanus(Looks cool) (Might need some higher lighting tho, or be next to a window). Taiwan moss, X-mas Moss, Peacock Moss, Flame moss, Spiky Moss, Other types of Fissidens moss and much much more. Red moss is also very cool but pretty expensive for a moss. Pelia and Mini pelia would also be very cool and nice but not sure if they are moss. Subwassertang would be pretty cool too! Those mosses are pretty distinguishable compared to each other. There is no limitations for aquariums other than budget.

I don't know too much on Aquarium Moss but hope that helps !http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/images/smilies/whistling.gif!

Hope someone else can add on what I said and provide input!

P.S Start up that Youtube CHannel. You got one sub all ready!
 
Yeah this thread was kinda dead.. not gonna lie. I like the moss idea.... I think its pretty innovative personally. I think this thread seemed dead because this is a pretty unusual idea. I think a lot of us have never even heard of Panther crabs much less breeding them. Ik I haven't.

Back to the Mosses idea. A problem will be that you will want to get a lot of mosses. A lot of mosses are pretty slow growers. Pretty sure Christmas moss is a slow grower. I'm not really a moss expert however so I recommend making a thread about this on the planted tank part of this forum. A couple types of moss you can incorporate are Fissidens Fontanus(Looks cool) (Might need some higher lighting tho, or be next to a window). Taiwan moss, X-mas Moss, Peacock Moss, Flame moss, Spiky Moss, Other types of Fissidens moss and much much more. Red moss is also very cool but pretty expensive for a moss. Pelia and Mini pelia would also be very cool and nice but not sure if they are moss. Subwassertang would be pretty cool too! Those mosses are pretty distinguishable compared to each other. There is no limitations for aquariums other than budget.

I don't know too much on Aquarium Moss but hope that helps !http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/images/smilies/whistling.gif!

Hope someone else can add on what I said and provide input!

P.S Start up that Youtube CHannel. You got one sub all ready!

Thanks for your input, and the honesty is much appreciated. :) That's actually kinda my goal with the majority of my breeding projects, to breed fish and inverts that most people don't know about so I can shed some light on the species. This has a few benefits: (1) there's more variety in the hobby, if there wasn't enough already :lol: but the *new* variety will be sustainable, (2) I'm ALWAYS going to breed them before I sell them, that way the wild populations don't suffer like with the Denison Barb (the just: fish became popular, increased demand depleted wild populations, fish now endangered in wild), and (3) I'll most likely be the only one doing this kind of thing with a lot of the species, so I'll have very little competition, at least at first, but I'll also sell them at a fair price so almost anyone could afford them (unlike the Denison Barb at my lfs which is $25 each, and Sulawesi Cardinal Shrimp which are commonly $10 each from a breeder online). Of course, I'm also a scientist, so I'll be studying each fish/invert and publishing my results. Hence, the threads and profiles, as well as everything else slightly "sciency".

Thanks for the info on the moss! I'll definitely go create a thread on the planted tank part of the forum so I can gather more intel (BTW, is there a ninja emoji? :ninja: <-- either that'll be an emoji or I'll look like a goof :lol: )

I'm glad to know there's no limit other than budget. I just wish I had a bigger budget to work with. :lol: But then again, who doesn't? :hide:

I'll have to get to work planning that YouTube channel ;) The other times I've tried, well, let's just say it was like this thread with the exception that I'd given up on it due to shifting priorities. I'll provide the link when I get it started up again :)

There's definitely a LOT for me to think about, but I'm looking forward to proceeding with this, even if I might do things differently. :) I may need to pm some mods so I can discuss the possibilities with them.

:thanks: and stay tuned!

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Alright, I think I'm going to start doing video updates for this thread (I prefer watching videos to reading a book most days :lol: ). The first one is going to be put up as soon as it uploads to YouTube, and it's in three parts. I'll also put other videos on my YouTube channel that won't be for this project (maybe some behind the scenes stuff and explanations about my business), so be sure to subscribe if you frequent YouTube. Thanks for all the support! I look forward to getting this ready for the crabs and breeding them!

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