Pearls they scoffed!

[coralbandit]

Thank you both for leaf info!
I hope all don't cringe but I am pretty much going to pick leaves in my yard!
IAL would never be found in the rams habitat,so if I understand anything about the leave thing I think as long as the leaves are safe/clean they should yield very similar results barring possibly the antibacterial properties.

I actually have total control over my water parameters and set it exactly how I want(hoping the fish want it also??) , so the leaves will degrade quickly in my soft water and hopefully enhance the habitat , and/or even create or be a source of food for the fry?

 

[brennae]

Lots of people use oak leaves. Even alder cones.

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[TheresaM]

I use alder cones. Banana and mulberry leaves are often used as well.

 

[coralbandit]

And in the last three days almost all fry are GONE!!!
I have been using prime everyday without testing the water.
Feeding I don't think is the problem at this late in the raising?
I did add some new water (very slowly) to add depth to the tank.
Aprox. 2-3 gallons at the most over the last week.
Could the water have really been my demise?
From 400++ to maybe 40(I don't even see that many??)
What the heck?

 

[brennae]

That's not cool. It's do frustrating when you lose fry
I know this first hand. With the cory fry I tried just adding water and it didn't work for me.

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[Andy Sager]

And in the last three days almost all fry are GONE!!!
I have been using prime everyday without testing the water.
Feeding I don't think is the problem at this late in the raising?
I did add some new water (very slowly) to add depth to the tank.
Aprox. 2-3 gallons at the most over the last week.
Could the water have really been my demise?
From 400++ to maybe 40(I don't even see that many??)
What the heck?

I may have your answer. According to the Seachem tech, PRIME should be added only every other day, not every day. You can read their answer here. :How long does Prime or Safe keep working once put into water? - Seachem Support Forums

I suspect you ODed your fry on PRIME and that's why they died. In the future, if you are using live plants in the tank, I would do an ammonia test prior to adding PRIME. If there is no ammonia, don't use the PRIME. You have to remember, the fry do not make a lot of waste so ammonia buildup takes a while to occur. Live foods like infusoria don;t really add to the bioload all that much and that's the fry's first foods. After that, you should be able to control excess foods in the tank to stop a drastic ammonia buildup negating the need for more PRIME as well. Use of an established sponge filter in with the fry will also help keep ammonia down.

Hope this helps

 

[coralbandit]

I may have your answer. According to the Seachem tech, PRIME should be added only every other day, not every day. You can read their answer here. :How long does Prime or Safe keep working once put into water? - Seachem Support Forums

I suspect you ODed your fry on PRIME and that's why they died. In the future, if you are using live plants in the tank, I would do an ammonia test prior to adding PRIME. If there is no ammonia, don't use the PRIME. You have to remember, the fry do not make a lot of waste so ammonia buildup takes a while to occur. Live foods like infusoria don;t really add to the bioload all that much and that's the fry's first foods. After that, you should be able to control excess foods in the tank to stop a drastic ammonia buildup negating the need for more PRIME as well. Use of an established sponge filter in with the fry will also help keep ammonia down.

Hope this helps

You are the man Andy!
I wasn't every day but I definitely didn't test so my everyday no test stands to reason.
Total beginner comment with some experience is ;
all looked good and water was still clear!
I really was very surprised to see this and actually thought just the opposite.
Testing will still show even if prime is in effect so I figured I just didn't add enough?
I added only enough for gallons to dechlor no multiples.
I still haven't tested.
Kind of bummed as I figured these guys pretty simple and a form of relaxing that I need due to them rams!
Always appreciate your insight Mr.S!

Hoping to hear you chime in on vitamin thread as I wonder why I can't push my rams.

 

[Andy Sager]

You are the man Andy!
I wasn't every day but I definitely didn't test so my everyday no test stands to reason.
Total beginner comment with some experience is ;
all looked good and water was still clear!
I really was very surprised to see this and actually thought just the opposite.
Testing will still show even if prime is in effect so I figured I just didn't add enough?
I added only enough for gallons to dechlor no multiples.
I still haven't tested.
Kind of bummed as I figured these guys pretty simple and a form of relaxing that I need due to them rams!
Always appreciate your insight Mr.S!

Hoping to hear you chime in on vitamin thread as I wonder why I can't push my rams.

Okay, but experienced answer is that "Ammonia in the water doesn't make the water look different so without testing, how do you know its there?"
I am however, a little confused. According to your previous post, listed below, you were using PRIME daily but this post you said you weren't. So which is it???

Another thing to keep in mind is that most anabantid fry are lost as they mature and try to grow their labrynth organ. This goes to the timing of your loss and another possibility. In my Gourami breeding tanks, I try to not disturb them all that much until the organ is developed. This means more natural plants as food source ( for their infusoria cultures) and less artificial foods. You may want to keep that in mind for the next batch. Set up the breeder tank using the plastic wrap as the lid. Make the lid in a few sections so you don't have to disturb a lot of the lid to get the female out. After that, leave it all alone until the dad needs to be removed. After that, use airline tubing as the siphon hose with a long piece of rigid tubing to guide the hose to where you need to clean up. Once the fry start to eat regular food, then start testing the water for ammonia until you add the sponge filter.

Just as a side note regarding use of a sponge filter: keeping a sponge filter running slowly in a tank can also have some bad effects. When not enough water is moving through the sponge, anerobic conditions can develop within the sponge and actually be more harmful than if there is no filtration at all. This is why I prefer using an airstone flowing gently enough to just keep the water surface broken up instead of a filter. Once the fry have developed their labrynth organ, then switch to a filter with a moderate flow.

And in the last three days almost all fry are GONE!!!
I have been using prime everyday without testing the water.
Feeding I don't think is the problem at this late in the raising?

Hope this helps. These are definitely easier than Rams to get going. You just need to fine tune the operation. And YES, I weighed in and added my 2 cents on the vitamin thread.

 

[coralbandit]

My LFS owner said the very same Mr.S!
They should be easier!
I don't play golf(I was a caddy from 13-18).
I completely understand how to suffer through my pleasures!
I will definitely be moving next pair to 30 long next week after I take the pearls in it to LFS!
I want to clarify for you and others that I primed(which is actually SAFE in my case) every other day at the dose per gallon to dechlorinate in the tank every other day for the second week,and then started to dose X2 per gallon after every other day,and then upped to even more after noticing the missing fry.

I went in opposite direction of your thoughts(and seachems) which is another great example of why two sets of eyes are always better then one.

I personally never would have thought I might have dosed too much?

On that note if the prime converts(we know it does) ,but still registers on test(we know it does) then when or how can I test?

I love test( they make a dumb man sound smart) but I usually let my fish guide me?

Can I really test and believe what I see?

The fish are saying you are killing me!

I am not sure test matters?

 

[Andy Sager]

My LFS owner said the very same Mr.S!
They should be easier!
I don't play golf(I was a caddy from 13-18).
I completely understand how to suffer through my pleasures!
I will definitely be moving next pair to 30 long next week after I take the pearls in it to LFS!
I want to clarify for you and others that I primed(which is actually SAFE in my case) every other day at the dose per gallon to dechlorinate in the tank every other day for the second week,and then started to dose X2 per gallon after every other day,and then upped to even more after noticing the missing fry.

I went in opposite direction of your thoughts(and seachems) which is another great example of why two sets of eyes are always better then one.

I personally never would have thought I might have dosed too much?

On that note if the prime converts(we know it does) ,but still registers on test(we know it does) then when or how can I test?

I love test( they make a dumb man sound smart) but I usually let my fish guide me?

Can I really test and believe what I see?

The fish are saying you are killing me!

I am not sure test matters?

Just an FYI, according to Seachem, PRIME and SAFE are not 100% identical. The difference is that SAFE does not have the slime producing properties of PRIME because it is not a liquid. There may be other differences as well which you can verify at seachem.com.

I think you are missing a point. Your breeder tank should have been filled with dechlorinated, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate free water. If it was, where is the ammonia coming from that you are using the SAFE for after the initial setup? Yes, Ammonium will still show up in a liquid test kit but there has to be ammonia/ ammonium present in the first place and there shouldn't be any in a new breeder tank. If there is, then you may want to set up the tank with no fish in it and have your cycled sponge filter remove/convert the ammonia before introducing the breeders into it ( and exchange the sponge filter for an air stone) OR use a different water source that is ammonia/nitrite/nitrate free. If you have this, the ammonia level in the breeder tank should take weeks to develop since most of the fish in there will be the fry and it takes a lot of fry poop and heavy breathing to produce any level of ammonia worth talking about. Considering that once you put the breeders in there to spawn you shouldn't be feeding them all that much ( that is supposed to be done prior to introduction to the breeder tank) there is little ammonia production coming from the fish that the live plants aren't taking care of. So the need for PRIME or SAFE is not really there. Again, adding a cycled sponge filter when the time is right should keep any ammonia level at bey after that.

Hope this helps

 

[coralbandit]

Thank you again Andy.
I still haven't tested water....
My source is not in question at all...
I think I understand what you are saying(really).
My question was more if the prime/safe converts(we know it does again), but still allows for ammonia or nitrite to show as 'present' how would I go about testing IF I WAS going to?
I know to change more(I hear them and you), but to what level?

 

[Andy Sager]

Thank you again Andy.
I still haven't tested water....
My source is not in question at all...
I think I understand what you are saying(really).
My question was more if the prime/safe converts(we know it does again), but still allows for ammonia or nitrite to show as 'present' how would I go about testing IF I WAS going to?
I know to change more(I hear them and you), but to what level?

Again, you are jumping too far ahead. You have to have it present in order for it to show up in a test but if it is not present, it won't show up at all. If your source water "ain't got it" then your tank doesn't either and no need for PRIME or SAFE. ( But you might want to use PRIME the first time just to help with the slime production for new water. )
The use of a cycled sponge filter basically eliminates the need really for testing after the fact unless you never change water and the nitrates accumulate. I don't test my Angel fry's water either But with every spawn I get, they get a clean sponge filter when I start to feed them and a squeeze of sponge juice from their parent's sponge filter and that's it. The fry don't produce enough ammonia to overwhelm the filter and the bacteria bed catches up to the bioload quickly because I don't overfeed. I did the exact same thing with the Bettas I was breeding. They are done the exact same way as any other anabantid( gourami) sans Kissers and the giant Osphronemus goramy. So if you get a reading before you add the fish, that water shouldn't be being used for them until you don't get a reading. IMHO

As for changing water, you want to be careful when adding water to anabantid fry. They don't like water movement. I usually don't start adding water until they develop their labrynth organ. I will siphon out any waste or debris without adding water if possible. When you do add, it needs to be clean water. If necessary, set up a tank of water and let it just aerate until needed. Stick an ammonia absorbing plant in that tank if you are concerned about any ammonium left over from the SAFE's chemical breakup of chloramine.

 

[livefishguy124]

what size tanks do you use for the hole process of spawning and raising the fish.
but not keeping the older ones

 

[coralbandit]

what size tanks do you use for the hole process of spawning and raising the fish.
but not keeping the older ones

The breeding has taken place in 20 talls(24" long) 1/2 full at the most.

 

[Andy Sager]

The breeding has taken place in 20 talls(24" long) 1/2 full at the most.

You may want to try doing them in a 30 long ( 36"L x 12" W x 17" H) due to the amount of fry these fish can produce. If you can't find a 30 long, the 40 breeder is the next best thing because the only real difference is the width. Fill half way as you're doing and just add water when appropriate. Since this is a larger volume of water, there is less chance of pollution until you start feeding other foods besides infusoria. ( I did mine in 30 longs, which I still have 2 tanks with me. )

 

[coralbandit]

Definitely a doing a pair in a 30 long next week after I take the pearls in it to LFS(post 29).You don't have to tell me twice (but I do appreciate it )
I am sending some rams and pearls next weekend to free up some room.

I do agree these fish merit even a 40b.
I may be able to free one up without much fuss.
Got the 30long under my 40b on same stand sooooo......

This frees up 2 @ 20 tall(under the 75g)!!!!
I went to 2 LFS yesterday and came home with no fish!

 

[livefishguy124]

i may breed these, in a 30 with a 20 for fry

 

[coralbandit]

i may breed these, in a 30 with a 20 for fry

They are such beautiful fish IMO!
I love that I added my first group(12) to my 180!
The color up so much better in there then in the breeders.

 

[Andy Sager]

i may breed these, in a 30 with a 20 for fry

I think you have it backwards a bit. If anything, you need to grow them in the larger tank as there will be a lot of them and depending on how large the breeders are, there could be a REAL LOT of them ( fry).
As I described in a earlier post, the issue is moving the fry. They don't like it much when they are small. So you want to try to give the fry a lot of room from the start.

 

[livefishguy124]

so like breed them in the 30 then move the parents to the 20? or the community tank they are in?
what about breed them in the 30 then breed them in the 20 then let the fry grow up and while the parents are in a community tank.