sexing my angels

[gourami gal]

I have two adult angels in my tank that im looking to sex- can anyone help me?
ALSO has anyone had luck pairing adult angels? I have one proven pair already looking to get these paired off as well (with different angels obviously)- im suspecting they are the same sex bc they tend to fight and barely tolerate each other.

 

[ImACoolguy]

If I had to guess they are both male based on your tolerance factor and the nuchal hump above the eyes.

Andy Sager is the angelfish expert on here. If you look for his thread "Wigglers at last!" It has about everything you could imagine on angels in there.


Caleb

 

[PassengerTN]

Dorsals being fully erect is something more common in males as well. Females tend to keep them in line with the angle of the head I believe.

Jesse

 

[PoppaRyno]

I will say this... Most experts will tell you that until you see the angels spawning, you wont know whos what. Females have a slighly larger in diameter and shorter tube than the males. This is because they have to push the eggs out the males tube will be skinnier. There are lots of lil tricks to supposedly help you sex them, but theyre not 100%, not even close. seeing them spawn is the only way to know for sure.

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[PoppaRyno]

As for your pair fighting, its common. Also no way can 2 same sex fish be a "proven pair". To be a proven pair they had to have spawned, eggs are fertile, and produced healthy fish that were able to be raised.

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[gourami gal]

I'm actually reading Andy's "wigglers at last!" thread, a little everyday and it's been very helpful with my breeding pair. That confirms my suspicions
I've been suspecting males

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[Andy Sager]

I will say this... Most experts will tell you that until you see the angels spawning, you wont know whos what. Females have a slighly larger in diameter and shorter tube than the males. This is because they have to push the eggs out the males tube will be skinnier. There are lots of lil tricks to supposedly help you sex them, but theyre not 100%, not even close. seeing them spawn is the only way to know for sure.

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As for your pair fighting, its common. Also no way can 2 same sex fish be a "proven pair". To be a proven pair they had to have spawned, eggs are fertile, and produced healthy fish that were able to be raised.

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Poppa nailed this on the head. You really can't tell anymore by physical attributes as the Angelfish has become so mixed that now females have formally male only traits and the same for males. (The tubes don't lie. ) Case in point, when I used one of my "tells" on your Silver, it should be a female HOWEVER, if you look at it's head, there appears to be the hump which should mean male. When you are talking about only having 2 Angels in a tank, their is a hierarchy system in play so they may be pairing or not. There is a video post here that shows the difference in the way the fish "fight" with each other. Maybe it will help you. http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f82/angelfish-mating-ritual-318326-3.html#post3038223

Hope this helps

 

[gourami gal]

Thanks! The two angels I'm referring to here are definitely not displaying pairing behaviour with each other which is why suspected they were the same sex.
Really I was hoping to get an idea of what sex they appear to be so that I can introduce some angels and hope to get some pairing going on. Understand I'm not expecting them to pair with each other.

What I meant by "proven pair" is I have a mating pair in another tank that just spawned their 5th batch. The first 4 batches they raised to free swimming, They aren't large batches by any means, but they are a new pair and I'm hoping the male will get better at fertilizing more of the eggs (he tends to miss about half the eggs).

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[coralbandit]

I guess both males.
The nuchal is a very strong indicator in many cichlids IMO.
The venting is the only real 100% method.
The marble is the dominant one?

 

[PoppaRyno]

Thanks! The two angels I'm referring to here are definitely not displaying pairing behaviour with each other which is why suspected they were the same sex.
Really I was hoping to get an idea of what sex they appear to be so that I can introduce some angels and hope to get some pairing going on. Understand I'm not expecting them to pair with each other.

What I meant by "proven pair" is I have a mating pair in another tank that just spawned their 5th batch. The first 4 batches they raised to free swimming, They aren't large batches by any means, but they are a new pair and I'm hoping the male will get better at fertilizing more of the eggs (he tends to miss about half the eggs).

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Congrats on the spawns. The male will get better with more spawns (usually). Keep it up. I have some pinoy blues that parent raise very well. Its awsome to watch them get better with each batch.

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[Andy Sager]

I have two adult angels in my tank that im looking to sex- can anyone help me?
ALSO has anyone had luck pairing adult angels? I have one proven pair already looking to get these paired off as well (with different angels obviously)- im suspecting they are the same sex bc they tend to fight and barely tolerate each other.

As for setting up just 2 fish in hopes of them pairing, it is my experience that this is best done when one is already part of a breeding pair and you are replacing one of the members. Otherwise, you are best to just put 6 or so fish together and let them pair off on their own.
I routinely put pairs together but they don't always spawn together or get along post spawning. So if you think your fish are both males, get a guaranteed female and see what happens. Be prepared however to remove one of the males as fighting for spawning rights can be violent.

 

[gourami gal]

Yes my marble is larger and dominant, but he keeps the peace in the tank. I've removed him from the tank once and in his absence the silver went on a rampage terrorizing everyone in the tank, as soon as I returned the marble to the tank they fought by locking lips and tearing fins. But as soon as it was over the silver behaved himself and harmony was restored. It doesn't work perfectly but it works for now.

Andy What if I put one of my males in with a female in a 20 gallon tall? How long should I give him and when would I determine to break it up?

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[Andy Sager]

Yes my marble is larger and dominant, but he keeps the peace in the tank. I've removed him from the tank once and in his absence the silver went on a rampage terrorizing everyone in the tank, as soon as I returned the marble to the tank they fought by locking lips and tearing fins. But as soon as it was over the silver behaved himself and harmony was restored. It doesn't work perfectly but it works for now.

Andy What if I put one of my males in with a female in a 20 gallon tall? How long should I give him and when would I determine to break it up?

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The question is "How bad do you want fry?" In some cases, one of the pair will mame the other but still breed with it. I've seen many pairs where the fish are no longer saleable due to injuries and missing parts yet they still produce fry like crazy. It's the chance you take when trying to breed these fish. How far are you willing to let it go? Some fish never spawn together even tho they are male and female. Some will go right away. There is no fish time clock. For me, as long as the fish are alive and not being badly injured, I keep them together. That has cost me some fish however. Like I said, that's the risk you take when trying to breed. There are no guarantees. If you are concerned about losing the fish, keep a divider handy and any signs of damage, put the divider in the tank. Make it a see through divider so the fish can see each other. Sometimes, after a week or so, the aggressor calms down and the 2 can get on with things. I just had that happen with a new pairing I put together. it was an older female with a younger male. She started in on him the day they went into the tank. I let it go for 2 days then put in a divider. About a week later, I tried it again and the 2 have spawned twice now with no more aggression. I remove the spawns so maybe this has something to do with it. With another pair, I was letting them parent raise the spawns since their spawns were not doing well when I removed them. After about 5 or 6 spawns together, none that did well, she beat him so bad that he eventually died while I was trying to save him. You just never know.

 

[gourami gal]

That makes sense, I'm serious about selling fry as a means to offset the cost of the hobby. The dilemma I have is my two angels aren't great in my 75g community tank and I am a little attached to them I don't want to just sell them. But since I'm breeding already I thought it would be nice to be able to see if I could get them paired... I'm going to try. We will see how it goes!

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[Andy Sager]

Here's to show you just how unpredictable these fish can be: I recently lost the male of a pair of half blacks so I moved the female to a new tank and added a single male half black which had successfully spawned with 2 other females. This was yesterday or the day before. Today, they spawned. I watched and he was just as involved as she was. I have a silver female which has had many spawns, recently killed her mate, previously beat up her constant mate once where I separated them ( she did return to breeding with the same male) and now is in the process of hopefully spawning with a new male. I placed 4 males into her tank but had to remove one almost immediately. 2 of the males are successful spawners with other females but were injured in the process, the one I removed never spawned with his previous mate, and the last one is a brother of one of the injured ones. Right now, one of the previously injured males is being the dominant one and keeping the other 2 males at bay. Meanwhile, the female has had nothing to do with any of them. She remains behind the spawning slate. This is after the males were put into HER tank where she killed her last mate. Nothing makes 100% sense. You just need to be prepared for the worst.

 

[schpanky]

Thanks for posting this thread. By looking at your two angels heads I now am positive that mine is a female. The head is SOOO different. Now I know and I don't have to ask anywhere else. Good luck, thanks again.

 

[PoppaRyno]

Head has lil to do with angels sex now a days...

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[Andy Sager]

Head has lil to do with angels sex now a days...

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So true, so true.
I'm finding in many of my young breeder sized Angels, that the females definitely show their egg bulge first thing in the morning. I can look into a tank of 25 +/- fish and tell the females by their guts more than their heads. Considering that they wouldn't have eaten anything in over 12 hours, it's hard to think that a belly that big would be from anything else but eggs ( assuming bloat was not an option. ) Then again, their breeding tubes are the only real positive identifier these days.