Water changes on wiggler tank

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Kelly5978

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May 18, 2013
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I am working on my 3rd attempt at angelfish spawning. I followed excellent advice I was given last time, but have a few questions I can't find answers to in my old post (or wigglers). I let the parents hatch the eggs into wigglers. I moved the leaf of wigglers to their own tank, with a heater, sponge filter, and water from the parent tank. Questions:
1. Am I correct that I did NOT need to add m.blue to the baby tank (because they were already hatched into wigglers)?
2. Was I supposed to put a bubbler/constant air flow on the wigglers? The mom was no longer fanning the wigglers, so I assumed I should just add the sponge filter instead of an airstone.
3. I was given excellent advice last spawn to move the eggs, add certain things to the baby tank, and LEAVE THEM ALONE! Lol. However, I don't have m.blue in this tank, and I don't believe I seeded the sponge filter enough. So, the baby tank this time has water from the parent tank, and is not cycled. I understand that the wigglers don't eat or poop, so they're not causing ammonia. But, there is water from a cycled tank, with not enough beneficial bacteria to fight whatever was already in there (from the fish in the main tank). So....do I do daily water changes? I am really torn, as I know the wigglers are greatly affected in by any change to their water, but I woke up this morning and half were dead. I tested for ammonia, and the tester turned slightly green (meaning ammonia). The main tank's water is perfectly yellow( no ammonia). That tells me that my sponge wasn't cycled enough, and there is bad bacteria having a hey day in the baby tank. (Please correct me if I'm wrong)...so, are daily water changes the answer? Will slight ammonia kill wigglers? (I know it would kill fry, I just didn't know if the wiggler egg sac protected it?)
4. If I do water changes, do I use prime to dechlorinate?
Any help is appreciated! My last spawn got to the free swimming stage, but only 2 actually survived to grow up.
Last 2 questions:
1. What is the best method for hatching brine shrimp? I have failed at my first 2 attempts. I'm using aquar salt, tap water and the brine egg mixture, under a heat lamp with a heater next to it. Air stone goes trough an opening in the top, to mix everything up. I'm using a 2 liter bottle, inverted. Was told this was the easiest way, but the mixture seems to stick to the sides of the bottle above the water (is my air hose to strong?)
2. I have another angelfish wigglers set still in the main tank. I was going to move them today to their own tank. Should I buy an active sponge filter for their tank before moving them?I obviously did a poor job seeding my sponge filters, and I hate feeling like I'm killing babies that may have lived if I left them with their mom. Or, should I just use new water that is the same ph, temp, etc?
Thanks everyone!
 
That would be great! Was hoping you'd answer 2 days ago...I mentioned all your great advice to draw you in, but it apparently didn't work :). I did the water changes, but the 10 wigglers in the little tank died. I believe the temp is cooler than the main tank (bought new heater today), and I should have used an airstone until they were free swimming....THEN switched to sponge filter. Am I right? I did water changes daily also....which may have also been wrong. I have free swimming in the main tank. They are divided off, but any day, they will swim through the divider and be eaten. Please tell me my mistakes with the dead 10 wigglers...and also how to proceed with fry. I THINK I can use main tank water to fill baby tank, sponge filter since they're swimming (moving a plant from the main tank also, in case my sponge isn't seeded enough), new heater to keep temp constant, daily water changes (same chemistry and temp) with prime, and feed BBS (finally figured out how to hatch them) 3-5 times daily, removing I eaten food with rigid tubing. Right? Any additional advice or corrections are welcome. I thought I was clear (and apologized for getting rude out of frustration a month ago...but I'm still being punished?) questions that I would really appreciate answers to (ESPECIALLY FROM ANDY ?)...
1. I work 11-5. How am I supposed to keep them from starving?
2. Is a baby eye dropper full of BBS adequate for each feeding?
3. How long are the BBS "good", and how do I store them?
4. Is any way better than another to move the fry to baby tank? I know I should have moved them as eggs, but I knew the mom could get them to free swimming stage, and I don't seem to be able to artificially. I took 10 as wigglers....and killed them :(. Is scooping them out in a cup (so they're not touched) or a turkey baster better to move them?
5. I see 1 or 2 that are bloated up all over. They're not shaped like the rest. They're round. And clear (like their eyes are under this bloated bubble). I'm guessing they're bad. Is it because of anything in the tank, or does that just happen? The mom is keeping them alive, and I don't want them spreading anything to the others....if it's something contagious.
6. Do I use prime on daily water changes once babies are moved?
Any other tips are appreciated. I'm a slow learner evidently....but I get better every time. Thx
 
That would be great! Was hoping you'd answer 2 days ago...I mentioned all your great advice to draw you in, but it apparently didn't work :). I did the water changes, but the 10 wigglers in the little tank died. I believe the temp is cooler than the main tank (bought new heater today), and I should have used an airstone until they were free swimming....THEN switched to sponge filter. Am I right? I did water changes daily also....which may have also been wrong. I have free swimming in the main tank. They are divided off, but any day, they will swim through the divider and be eaten. Please tell me my mistakes with the dead 10 wigglers...and also how to proceed with fry. I THINK I can use main tank water to fill baby tank, sponge filter since they're swimming (moving a plant from the main tank also, in case my sponge isn't seeded enough), new heater to keep temp constant, daily water changes (same chemistry and temp) with prime, and feed BBS (finally figured out how to hatch them) 3-5 times daily, removing I eaten food with rigid tubing. Right? Any additional advice or corrections are welcome. I thought I was clear (and apologized for getting rude out of frustration a month ago...but I'm still being punished?) questions that I would really appreciate answers to (ESPECIALLY FROM ANDY ?)...
1. I work 11-5. How am I supposed to keep them from starving?
2. Is a baby eye dropper full of BBS adequate for each feeding?
3. How long are the BBS "good", and how do I store them?
4. Is any way better than another to move the fry to baby tank? I know I should have moved them as eggs, but I knew the mom could get them to free swimming stage, and I don't seem to be able to artificially. I took 10 as wigglers....and killed them :(. Is scooping them out in a cup (so they're not touched) or a turkey baster better to move them?
5. I see 1 or 2 that are bloated up all over. They're not shaped like the rest. They're round. And clear (like their eyes are under this bloated bubble). I'm guessing they're bad. Is it because of anything in the tank, or does that just happen? The mom is keeping them alive, and I don't want them spreading anything to the others....if it's something contagious.
6. Do I use prime on daily water changes once babies are moved?
Any other tips are appreciated. I'm a slow learner evidently....but I get better every time. Thx

First off, I don't do "sucking up" real well :brows: ;)
Second, you've asked for other people's responses so I backed off waiting for others to respond. (That should tell you something:whistle:)
Now for the fun stuff:
You need to understand that eggs are eggs but wigglers are fish. They need to be treated differently. There is nothing you would do for wigglers that is different than you do for any other swimming fish. With eggs, you need to protect them in order for them to become fish. That's why you use M. Blue with them to keep them from fungusing.

As for moving fry, the less change there is, the better. This is why I use the same water they are in to move them. Once moved, I can slowly change the water chemistry by doing small daily water changes. You'd be surprised how effective daily small (5%-10%) water changes can be on wigglers because they are not producing anything (of substance) to change the water chemistry so virtually all change is positive change. The caviat to this is if the water they are in is good, WHY CHANGE IT???? Most of my water changes don't happen until after the fry are free swimming and there is dead food on the bottom, not before. As for what happened to you 10 fry, I can't say for sure. Maybe too much water change, too much temp difference, not enough air or it could have also been that the fry weren't going to survive no matter what you did. Sorry but there is no definite answer to give you at this time.

Now, I remember in a previous post you said something about the ammonia being high(er) in the water you used to move the eggs/ wigglers with and started to adjust it. LISTEN!!!!!! IF your PH is below 7.0 ( and it should be, where you are at) and you are getting an ammonia reading on an API test kit, DON'T PANIC!!!!!!!! Toxic Ammonia (NH3), at PH levels lower than 7.0 is actually NH4 which is ammonium and NOT TOXIC to fish. LEAVE IT ALONE!!!!!!!!!! IF your breeder tank's water is above 7.0 PH and you have ammonia present, SHAME ON YOU (;)) as this means you are keeping your fish in an uncycled aquarium or overfeeding the fish and your BB filter can't keep up.
Sponge filters: While it is ideal to have a pre seasoned sponge filter, I'll also take a BRAND NEW sponge filter out of the package and use it with wigglers and fry right from the start. ( I believe I said this in a previous post.) Again, you will be doing water changes frequently once you start feeding the fry so there should never be an accumulation of ammonia in the tank and if there is, and your PH is under 7.0, it's not toxic. ( see above). So even if you took your sponge filter and only had it in the main tank for a day or 2, the wigglers would not have caused anything to change and what ever bacteria was in the filter will be good enough to start the bed. You don;t need to move things "Just in case" or compensate for the "short time in the main tank". Just monitor the levels so you can see IF you need to panic.:eek: lol Ammonia and Nitrite levels don't need to get really high to cycle a filter. They just need to be present so that the corresponding bacteria have a food source to consume. The Biological filter is an ever growing living thing so it expands and contracts based on the food source available. This is why you can get away with a lot more with fish fry than you can with adult fish.
So now, to answer you questions:
#1- feed them before you go to work, when you first get home, and again at night before the lights go out. ( I try to feed about 12 hours after the morning feeding) but you want to have a light source to keep them awake so depending on your lighting in the house, use natural daylight during the day and your tank lights in the evening so that the fry are awake for the last feeding.

#2- The amount of shrimp eggs to hatch out is all according to how many fish you are feeding. For me, it's an eyeball thing.
This is the amount of eggs I used for about 400 fry for days 1-3. I also only needed to feed the fry 1 time on days 1 & 2 and 2 times on day 3 before switching to the 3 times. I use their bellies as a guide to whether they need to be fed. I'm using a 1/4 teaspoon in this pic.
The larger pic (on right or bottom) is the amount I use at each feeding for the same 400 fish after day 3.
 

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Con't

That would be great! Was hoping you'd answer 2 days ago...I mentioned all your great advice to draw you in, but it apparently didn't work :). I did the water changes, but the 10 wigglers in the little tank died. I believe the temp is cooler than the main tank (bought new heater today), and I should have used an airstone until they were free swimming....THEN switched to sponge filter. Am I right? I did water changes daily also....which may have also been wrong. I have free swimming in the main tank. They are divided off, but any day, they will swim through the divider and be eaten. Please tell me my mistakes with the dead 10 wigglers...and also how to proceed with fry. I THINK I can use main tank water to fill baby tank, sponge filter since they're swimming (moving a plant from the main tank also, in case my sponge isn't seeded enough), new heater to keep temp constant, daily water changes (same chemistry and temp) with prime, and feed BBS (finally figured out how to hatch them) 3-5 times daily, removing I eaten food with rigid tubing. Right? Any additional advice or corrections are welcome. I thought I was clear (and apologized for getting rude out of frustration a month ago...but I'm still being punished?) questions that I would really appreciate answers to (ESPECIALLY FROM ANDY ?)...
1. I work 11-5. How am I supposed to keep them from starving?
2. Is a baby eye dropper full of BBS adequate for each feeding?
3. How long are the BBS "good", and how do I store them?
4. Is any way better than another to move the fry to baby tank? I know I should have moved them as eggs, but I knew the mom could get them to free swimming stage, and I don't seem to be able to artificially. I took 10 as wigglers....and killed them :(. Is scooping them out in a cup (so they're not touched) or a turkey baster better to move them?
5. I see 1 or 2 that are bloated up all over. They're not shaped like the rest. They're round. And clear (like their eyes are under this bloated bubble). I'm guessing they're bad. Is it because of anything in the tank, or does that just happen? The mom is keeping them alive, and I don't want them spreading anything to the others....if it's something contagious.
6. Do I use prime on daily water changes once babies are moved?
Any other tips are appreciated. I'm a slow learner evidently....but I get better every time. Thx

Don't know how to type below my pics so just continued here :facepalm:

#3- Newly hatched brine shrimp is it's most nutritious at less than approx. 6 hours after hatching at higher temps. This is why you use 3 bottles so that you are always using newly hatched. (You start each bottle 24 hours before the scheduled feeding time.) You can store the nupulii in the freezer but I've found that you will best use these after the fry are used to getting fed at certain times so the movement (or lack of movement) is not as large an issue. Newly free swimming fry use the food's movement as a signal to feed. Now I know some people (BOB!!!! lol) only use frozen with success but that has not been my story so I continue to hatch it out myself.

#4- The best way to move fish fry is to siphon them with a hose from one tank to another. You can adjust the strength of the siphon by raising and lowering the hose so you don;t kill the fry in the process. I tend to use a 1/4" I.D. clear hose from a Home Depot or Lowe's so I can see what's happening during the process. Turkey basters and cups are not as good as basters, especially, can rip the fry apart if sucked in too quickly. With fry in a bottle, I just gently pour the bottle into the new water once I have done a little acclimating in the bottle.

#5- Sounds like you are seeing the results of all the breeding that has been done to these fish. They are just disfigured fry and should be destroyed (IMO) as they have no value in the gene pool. Should they survive, they will just cost you money and deprive a sibling of the food they are eating.
So it's not disease or contagious. All the fish from that spawn carry that gene, these just have it so it's dominant and not recessive.

#6- If you use prime on the water you add to the parent's tank, you should use prime in the water you are adding to the fry tank. They are, after all, FISH and need good water to survive :fish2::fish2::fish2:

So I guess I should not wait and from now on just jump in when I see a post here. ;)
You were never being "punished". You have to realize that I have limited amounts of time and many people I am helping ( at least I believe I am helping :D) so when I see a disaster in the making and the person is rejecting the life raft, I have to move on to those who want to be saved. I've always been a fan of "Too many cooks spoil the broth" so if you ( not the specific you but the general you) want each cook's recipe, then be my guest but count me out. I don't have time to fix other cook's recipes. I know mine works, always did, still does and I see no reason to change it. Follow it, exactly how I lay it out, and you (again, the general you not the specific you) should have the same results as I do (or did). That's all that happened. :)

Just remember tho, learning comes with making mistakes. I believe you learned something in my absence so it wasn't a total loss for you (y)

Hope this helps (y)
 
Thx! I came home to about 50 free swimming babies. I've already made a few serious mistakes.... I had only 1 BBS hatching thing going, and of course it's not ready. I mushed up frozen, and most are it....but I'm using live tonight. So, about every 8 hours...feed. Correct? A few babies got past the divider, as I wasnt home to move them. The crazy part is: an adolescent marble on the other side is protecting them! (I did a thread about it, cause i was amazed). I'm very afraid to kill them while moving them, but I can see they won't all survive if I don't. I have the rigid tubing you told me to buy last time. Is that what you're saying I should use? I'm feeling a tad stupid, because I'm not following how you described getting the fry out. Do I use tube to siphon them into a bottle, then gently pour into baby tank? Is that what you're saying? As for my water....my tap is 8 (ph). It's REALLY hard (gh-22, kh-17). I cut my water with 1/4 tap, 3/4 RO to get 7.2 ph in the main tank (gh-8, kh-4). So, I do worry about ammonia. I never show any in the main tank, but the baby tank had a little. How would that happen? I'm getting closer....I can feel it! I have free swimmers on my 3rd try! Now....help me keep them alive :)!!! I'm learning a lot from you, and appreciate all of it! Any advice is welcome! I think I will take half of them to the new tank. I understand not all of them will survive no matter what I do....but, if 30 die in the baby tank, then I will KNOW I'm doing something wrong. And hopefully have a few left in the divided big tank. Can you over feed them? I mean, when I used the frozen, mushed brine, I watched most babies eat particles, and their bellies turned slightly orange. Did I not feed them enough? Or is it not bright orange because they weren't live? I'm soooo happy! Even if this is another learning experience (?), at least I get a step further each time!
 
Thx! I came home to about 50 free swimming babies. I've already made a few serious mistakes.... I had only 1 BBS hatching thing going, and of course it's not ready. I mushed up frozen, and most are it....but I'm using live tonight. So, about every 8 hours...feed. Correct? A few babies got past the divider, as I wasnt home to move them. The crazy part is: an adolescent marble on the other side is protecting them! (I did a thread about it, cause i was amazed). I'm very afraid to kill them while moving them, but I can see they won't all survive if I don't. I have the rigid tubing you told me to buy last time. Is that what you're saying I should use? I'm feeling a tad stupid, because I'm not following how you described getting the fry out. Do I use tube to siphon them into a bottle, then gently pour into baby tank? Is that what you're saying? As for my water....my tap is 8 (ph). It's REALLY hard (gh-22, kh-17). I cut my water with 1/4 tap, 3/4 RO to get 7.2 ph in the main tank (gh-8, kh-4). So, I do worry about ammonia. I never show any in the main tank, but the baby tank had a little. How would that happen? I'm getting closer....I can feel it! I have free swimmers on my 3rd try! Now....help me keep them alive :)!!! I'm learning a lot from you, and appreciate all of it! Any advice is welcome! I think I will take half of them to the new tank. I understand not all of them will survive no matter what I do....but, if 30 die in the baby tank, then I will KNOW I'm doing something wrong. And hopefully have a few left in the divided big tank. Can you over feed them? I mean, when I used the frozen, mushed brine, I watched most babies eat particles, and their bellies turned slightly orange. Did I not feed them enough? Or is it not bright orange because they weren't live? I'm soooo happy! Even if this is another learning experience (?), at least I get a step further each time!

Ok, how you could have no ammonia in the main tank, take that water and move it into another tank, then get an ammonia reading with just eggs or wigglers, is beyond me. It makes no sense unless you read the test wrong or something got into the vial. Again tho, if you are using the water they are in, they should be fine as eggs or as newly hatched wigglers. You would be better off tho using a pre seasoned sponge filter than a new, out of the package one, if you keep the water above 7.0 ph.

As for the feeding, every 8 hours would not be 3x per day unless you were getting up in the middle of the night to feed. I feed on a 12-14 hour schedule. If I'm feeding the first feeding around 8 a.m., then I'm feeding the last feeding for the day around 8-9 p.m. The middle feeding would be around 2 p.m.
As for the orange bellies, adult brine shrimp are more brownish tan but the nupulii are an orange color so they show up in the bellies real easily. As for can you overfeed them, you could but what will happen is you will see a lot of dead food on the tank bottom which is your que to not feed as much. Try to keep your food amounts about the same each feeding. Also, by feeding 3 times per day, any fry that didn't feed the feeding before, has another chance to before too long.

As for siphoning the fry, you are going to use the same concept as the rigid tubing siphon but on a larger scale. Airline tubing is 3/16" in diameter and I use a 1/4" in diameter hose for moving the fry. BIG difference. Since you will be using the larger hose, you'll want something to siphon the fry into (i.e. a bucket or bowl, Bottle, etc) for transport unless your fry tank is just below the breeder tank or you are moving them to a tank small enough for you to carry around (i.e. 2 1/2 gal or 5 gal). You wouldn't need to acclimate the fry if the next tank is the water they are coming from ( Just moved over.). You would if the tank is all new water to them. My point about the bottle was just that since I am hatching out in a 1/2 gal bottle, I just remove some water from the bottle, acclimate the fry to new tank water ( that is as close to the same as theirs as possible) before dumping them out of the bottle and directly into the new tank.


I think I covered it all. ;)
 
You did cover everything, and yet I found more questions (face palm!) I'm listening.....just still learning! Okay....I left the wiggler tank running, with water from the main tank, and 2 dead wigglers (hoping they were playing possum) for the past 2 days. I tested the water....0 everything, 5 nitrates, so maybe I did do the test wrong the first day....or my sponge is working!. Sponge was left running the past few days in this water. But, I hadn't done a water change since Wednesday night (when I gave up hope on the last 2 wigglers). I did a 50% water change with water from the main tank as my new water tonight and added adjustable heater. Removed the dead, and Added fake plant from the main tank. My issue: the heater is still going off at 81 degrees, and the main tank is 84 degrees. Is this too big a difference? Should I buy a new heater? Or will a smaller tank just not stay hot enough? If any survive the night, should I turn down the heat on the main tank....so the move won't make any change? Or.....just leave them alone, and wait another 10 days to try raising myself? I lost 4 of the 50 because they swam through the divider, and my marble on the other side can't defend them against the other bigger fish (but it's cool that she tried)! I'm going to wait on your response before doing anything. I guess the more mistakes I make...the more I learn! ?. To top it all off, my 6 year old daughter snuck into my room and accidentally knocked over the BBS set up. So, they've had nothing but mushed frozen brine 2 times. Some look like 2 little bubbles (1 head, 1 belly, with a tail). Some....the belly is not so "bubble" looking. I put a heater right on the BBS now "cooking", hoping to speed the process and have nutritious food by morning. The fry are making a "cloud" around the parents, but they are all staying quite close to the top. I see the fry break away from the group and swim all the way to the top every so often. Does this indicate that they're hungry? That the oxygen is low? Or is this normal? (Sorry...you know I worry about everything!!!) So, I'm left with 46 fry with their parents, divided off in the main tank....and a fry tank that won't get the right temp. I turned the heater up even more, and will move them in the morning if the temp matches. Any tips are welcome, and a few more questions....how important is light to the fry? My daughter also managed to break the light on the fry tank (too curious for her own good). She NEVER sneaks into my room, but it's just my luck she'd decide to start now! I read your advice about the using the lighting to keep the fry awake for their last feeding....can I do all of this from outside the tank? It's a 5g with light in the hood. I will have to replace the entire hood if I can't use a light from the outside. Finally, I am leaving the light on in the main tank tonight. If you happen to see this....and that's not a good idea, pls let me know ASAP. I hate to deprive them of sleep, but I'm quite afraid they will end up on the wrong side of the divider if I turn off the lights. I know I'm a pain, but I do appreciate your help.
 
You did cover everything, and yet I found more questions (face palm!) I'm listening.....just still learning! Okay....I left the wiggler tank running, with water from the main tank, and 2 dead wigglers (hoping they were playing possum) for the past 2 days. I tested the water....0 everything, 5 nitrates, so maybe I did do the test wrong the first day....or my sponge is working!. Sponge was left running the past few days in this water. But, I hadn't done a water change since Wednesday night (when I gave up hope on the last 2 wigglers). I did a 50% water change with water from the main tank as my new water tonight and added adjustable heater. Removed the dead, and Added fake plant from the main tank. My issue: the heater is still going off at 81 degrees, and the main tank is 84 degrees. Is this too big a difference? Should I buy a new heater? Or will a smaller tank just not stay hot enough? If any survive the night, should I turn down the heat on the main tank....so the move won't make any change? Or.....just leave them alone, and wait another 10 days to try raising myself? I lost 4 of the 50 because they swam through the divider, and my marble on the other side can't defend them against the other bigger fish (but it's cool that she tried)! I'm going to wait on your response before doing anything. I guess the more mistakes I make...the more I learn! ?. To top it all off, my 6 year old daughter snuck into my room and accidentally knocked over the BBS set up. So, they've had nothing but mushed frozen brine 2 times. Some look like 2 little bubbles (1 head, 1 belly, with a tail). Some....the belly is not so "bubble" looking. I put a heater right on the BBS now "cooking", hoping to speed the process and have nutritious food by morning. The fry are making a "cloud" around the parents, but they are all staying quite close to the top. I see the fry break away from the group and swim all the way to the top every so often. Does this indicate that they're hungry? That the oxygen is low? Or is this normal? (Sorry...you know I worry about everything!!!) So, I'm left with 46 fry with their parents, divided off in the main tank....and a fry tank that won't get the right temp. I turned the heater up even more, and will move them in the morning if the temp matches. Any tips are welcome, and a few more questions....how important is light to the fry? My daughter also managed to break the light on the fry tank (too curious for her own good). She NEVER sneaks into my room, but it's just my luck she'd decide to start now! I read your advice about the using the lighting to keep the fry awake for their last feeding....can I do all of this from outside the tank? It's a 5g with light in the hood. I will have to replace the entire hood if I can't use a light from the outside. Finally, I am leaving the light on in the main tank tonight. If you happen to see this....and that's not a good idea, pls let me know ASAP. I hate to deprive them of sleep, but I'm quite afraid they will end up on the wrong side of the divider if I turn off the lights. I know I'm a pain, but I do appreciate your help.

Boy, you just got too much STUFF going on. lol

Ok, gonna bottom line all this:
If your heater is not one of the pre set temp heaters (like the Tetra ones from Walmart) and it has a setting for 84 degrees, and yours is not getting to 84 degrees, it's probably either defective or not calibrated correctly so you should return it for a new one. (That's why I like my old Supreme heaters, no pre adjusting ;) )
84 degrees in the main tank IS a bit high but if it's working for ya, keep at it.

If the ammonia reading went away, assume the sponge is working and keep your eyes on the nitrite level to make sure that doesn't start to rise. Water changes if it does.

Technically, once you move the water from the main tank and use a different filter and have activity in the water (i.e. feeding, water changes, etc) it is no longer the same water as where ever it came from. You should be having a spare receptacle holding water that you are going to be using for water changes. Once you've moved the fry or eggs from the breeding tank, the breeding tank water should not be used. You want to use clean water in the fry/egg tank and the breeder tank isn't clean. This is why you want to do small changes with clean water as this is a change for the fish and small changes are easier for them to handle than larger changes. You move the eggs or fry with the water they were in ONLY so that there is no change in the water during the move.

The fry going to the surface is just possibly curiosity or they saw something at the surface they wanted to check out or eat, etc. Lack of oxygen effects all the fish not one or two. They all would be hanging at the surface if there wasn't enough oxygen.

As for lighting, I'm just using outside lighting cause my fry are outdoors. So I have to feed during the daylight hours. Obviously I don't know what your house lighting situation is but if you fed the fry say an hour before you leave for work, turn the tank light off when you leave for work, they would only have the room lighting available and if it is darker in the room, they will sleep. If you turn the tank light back on when you get home and leave it on for the next 2 feedings, you should be fine. Fish don't suffer from sleep deprivation. When they are tired, they find a place to their liking and go to sleep. The lighting doesn't matter that much. In your case, I wouldn't leave the lights on so long to help control any algae from growing.

As for the food, you are on your own. You need to hatch out some food for the fry as quickly as you can. Light and heat will help hatch out BBS quicker.

(y)
 
Thx. Well, yet another bust. I think I'm doomed to make every idiotic mistake possible ?. After 2 days of free swimming, and eating (I have pics of orange/full bellies), I finally had a new heater and everything ready for the fry tank. That very night, as I filled the fry tank with water from the main tank, the mom shooed 40+ fry into a corner, under a leaf. My tank has a very thin layer of large gravel rocks. I watched for hours, planning to steal the fry when the mom went to sleep. When I finally tried, I couldn't reach them, and the mom went berserk (tearing everything up). I thought she'd hurt the fry, so I decided to wait 1 more day, and killed the lights. I woke to find her frantically searching, and ZERO fry. An hour later, she had 6 fry on a leaf....but she wouldn't let me get close enough to feed them (she'd put them all in her mouth and spit them away from the BBS). I managed to remove them. 1 fry died an hour after being moved. The other 5 swam, ate, and seemed great all day. I killed the lights, and woke to 1 live fry. I did a small water change, removed the dead, put BBS in, and waited to remove any uneaten. The final fry acted more like a wiggler, never leaving the floor of the tank. I didn't see him eat, and even though I left a few BBS in the tank with hope, he's now dead. I bought the parents a new tank, but I currently have 55g, 40g, 20g, 10g, and 2 5g's running in my crap apartment....(along with us humans, and all our needs). I tried every room and plug....but I can't run another tank without blowing a fuse. We're moving soon, so I'm hoping to be successful on a small scale now (learning from my many mistakes), so I can do this right when we move. So.....
1. In your opinion, did the fry get trapped in the gravel and die? I removed all the gravel from that side of the tank in case that's what happened, but the fry I moved to their own tank died too. So, what else could have happened? I watched them float above the gravel for hours, yet I pulled all the dead babies out with a water change....so they WERE dead in the gravel. I know I'm paranoid....but could it be something IN the rocks? It's just weird that they all looked so great...until they got near the bottom of the tank. I've never stopped thinking there might be some parasite/worm in the tank....but without definite symptoms, I'm not going to throw meds at them. Would they keep spawning if there were parasites? Also, the mom is black, but gets white "scrapes", spots/patches, etc A LOT. And a few times, she looks like white/clear stuff is coming out of one gill. But, again, if there was a fungus problem....the eggs/fry wouldn't get as far as they have...right? Weird thing is, she always looks perfect when she has eggs/fry. It's as if her immune system jumps up a notch!
2. What happened to the 5 fry I moved? (Again....I know you can't actually answer this....I just want to know what I might have done wrong). I know that only so many fry survive PERIOD, and that fish aren't as well bred these days. But, this was this pair's 3rd spawn. They all turned white the first, they all went free swimming for 1 day the second, and almost 3 days the third. I really think the mom and I are both making mistakes, but getting smarter each time (with your help of course). ?. I had the 5 in the fry tank for 24 hours. They all looked healthy when I put them in. The last to die was bigger than the rest. I have close up pics that show him starting to develop. Then....dead. I did the 1 small water change, but they seemed fine after it. I removed all food uneaten. I guess I just want thoughts on what I could do better? Maybe 83 degrees IS too high?
3. Last thought...neither the babies or the parents gasp at the top, so the oxygen must be okay. But, I set up their divided side with the huge bush thing on the other side, to deter the other fish. It's almost like their own 20g. The big filter is right next to the bush/divider. The intake is not blocked. But The water flows out in between the bush and divider, so both sides get filtered water, but you can't see the filter from the front of the tank. Before you remind me, I will add that I purchased sponge filters, but they were the wrong size, so I'm waiting on a new order...and plan to switch over. I just wondered if my set up played any part in this. The water on the parent/fry side has almost no movement. Would that make it dirtier? Or more organics or whatever?
I feel like I'm missing some key ingredient.
Again, I know I sound crazy, but if that's what it takes to finally get this right....I'm okay with that.
 
Well let's bottom line this, THIS is part of the problems you ( the general you not the specific you ;) ) have when you try to move fry or "wigglers" instead of the eggs. The fry are much more vulnerable than the eggs are. (I've been trying to tell you this for how long? ;) )

What you didn't say was how you moved the fry but at this point, it might not matter. The fry just swimming along the bottom might be a genetic thing. I'm having a similar problem with my marble pair. about 90% of the free swimmers are "belly scrapers" and are surviving only because the food goes to the bottom of the tank where they are. Once they can't swim up to the surface for food, they will be goners. Since you haven't had a successful grow out, I can't say for sure that this is the problem :(

As for the mother hurting the fry, it's possible. When alarmed, their natural instinct is to eat the fry. Sounds stupid but it happens. This might have been the result of your trying to move them OR, you may have opened a spot through the divider and they got eaten by the other fish. Can't say for sure.

So here's my suggestion: what you have been doing doesn't appear to be working. Agreed? Why not do it the other way and move the eggs? This way, you will have already beaten most of the problems by having the fry in the other tank already.
Step 1: lower the temp in breeding tank to about 80
Step 2: Let the parents spawn
Step 3: Right after they finish spawning, take water from the spawning tank and fill up either a 5 gal tank or a 1 gal bottle ( whichever you have available) with just the water the eggs were spawned in.
Step 3A: Take the slate or spawning site full of eggs and put it in the tank or bottle.
Step 4: add heater and set airstone to flow over ( in front of) the eggs. heater set for the 80 degrees as well.
Step 5: add M Blue and put a cover over the bottle ( I use aluminum foil ) or a lid ( I use saran wrap, glass or plexi) if it's a tank.

Step 6: This is the important one............ DON'T TOUCH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't do anything to it, Don't breathe on it, Don't look at it cross eyed, don't shake it or turn it to see what's happening to it. Just go away for 2 1/2 days and then come back and look across the slate ( or spawning site) and see if you see tails wiggling. When you see tails wiggling. DO NOTHING!!!!!!!!! for at least 4 days. Okay, you can look at them wiggling but NO TOUCHING!!!!! ;)
On day 5, if the fry look like they have absorbed most of their yolk sack, begin your brine shrimp eggs. If they do not look like they absorbed the sack, wait until they do before setting up the BS eggs. ( I'm finding mine are becoming free swimming at day 7). You want to start the shrimp eggs the day before you believe they will be free swimming.

Now, depending on how many fry are swimming will determine how large a tank you need to eventually put them in and how soon. My small spawns stayed in a 2 1/2 gal tank for about 10 days before being moved but the large spawn, I hatched in a 1 gal jar, went into a 10 gal tank the day after they got their first feeding. There's about 400 of those fry and that's just too much for a 1 gal jar. These all went into new water that was as close to the same parameters as the fry were coming from. No more using the old water. It's all new water from here on out.

So all kidding aside, the lesson here is " The less you mess, the greater the success." Once I put eggs in a bottle or tank, I do nothing to them. In fact, the bottle with the 400 fry had so much fungus growing on the dead eggs that the fry were attaching to it. Didn't hurt them at all. Still got a tank full of fry to prove it.

Oh, and I now use an even easier way to get rid of the M Blue once the eggs hatch. I put a mesh bag of carbon, about the size of a golf ball, in the tank ( as close to the bubbles as possible) and the Blue is gone withing 48 hours. No water changes necessary.

Try this and see what happens. It's exactly what I do with my spawns.
 
Okay. I'm going to listen to your experience, and follow exactly. Just to explain....the reason I let the mom hatch them: I DID pull the eggs of my white pair, twice, without luck. The white pair have had plenty of successful spawns....for their previous owner. So, as always, I have to face that the problem is me. I'm going to keep trying (your way).
You said belly sliders don't make it. I read something about fry sometimes playing "possum"...but you tend to be right ALL the time, so I'm not going to hang on to any that do this. My questions: is "belly sliding" a gradual thing? The fry all swam at the top for 2 days. Could they all have turned into sliders, and got lost in the rocks? You said this is a genetic thing? Do they immediately go to the bottom after wiggler stage if they are sliders, or could they swim for 3 days (as the 1 I had the longest did), only to become sliders?
 
Okay. I'm going to listen to your experience, and follow exactly. Just to explain....the reason I let the mom hatch them: I DID pull the eggs of my white pair, twice, without luck. The white pair have had plenty of successful spawns....for their previous owner. So, as always, I have to face that the problem is me. I'm going to keep trying (your way).
You said belly sliders don't make it. I read something about fry sometimes playing "possum"...but you tend to be right ALL the time, so I'm not going to hang on to any that do this. My questions: is "belly sliding" a gradual thing? The fry all swam at the top for 2 days. Could they all have turned into sliders, and got lost in the rocks? You said this is a genetic thing? Do they immediately go to the bottom after wiggler stage if they are sliders, or could they swim for 3 days (as the 1 I had the longest did), only to become sliders?


There is a difference between a normal fry and a "slider". I had my sliders come off the bottom slightly to feed when they were first free swimming only to stay close to the bottom as they matured. So in the end, I had perfectly normal looking Angelfish that skirted along the bottom of the tank on their sides. Most of them just perished or were "taken out" by their normal siblings. That's the nature of the beast: Survival of the fittest."

Here's one more thing to consider doing IF you have been having problems (doing things exactly as I laid out ;) ) with the eggs hatching: Prepare water that is as close as possible to the spawning tank with the exception of the PH. Make the PH about 6.5 or even as low as 6.0. You can even try this with using distilled water from the market to save your sanity. The egg shell hardens rather quickly in higher PH water so by giving the eggs the lower PH, you extend the time for the sperm to really attach themselves to the egg. If this works and you get wigglers from the white pair this way, you may want to consider lowering the PH in your breeding tank (in case you miss a spawn while at work) or continue doing this method. There is a limited window tho for this which is why I prefer to change the breeding tank's PH.

And just to be clear, I'm not right ALL the time, I'm just wrong VERY infrequently when it comes to breeding fish :brows::whistle::D:ROFLMAO:(y):facepalm: :D:flowers:

But thanks :)
 
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