Newbie Needs Help - What Happened??

[JackSpadesSI]

I had a fish tank as a kid (30-40 gallons - I can't recall exactly) and I enjoyed it very much. Now, I thought I would ease back into the hobby with a 10-gallon counter-top tank. First things first - 60% of my fish are already dead !

I bought the tank yesterday (Marineland 10-gallon starter kit w/ LED lighting). In it, I have ~12 lbs of blue gravel, four fake plants, two fake rock structures, and filled with tap water. To the tap water, I added 5 mL of TetraAqua AquaSafe, as directed. I installed the filter system and the heater. The heater was set to 80 F arbitrarily.

Today I took a sample of water to PetSmart for free testing. They said it was ready for fish and provided these figures: Ammonia = 0.25 mg/L, nitrite = 0 mg/L, nitrate = 0 mg/L, pH = 6.8, alkalinity = 80 mg/L, hardness = 300 mg/L, and chlorine and chloramine = 0 mg/L.

Excited that my water was fish-ready I bought five fish to start out: two differently-colored Guppies (PetSmart said 72-82 F) and three Jumbo Neon Tetras (PetSmart said 74-79 F). Because the Guppies require salt (according to PetSmart) I bought some. When I got home I: added 2 tablespoons of API Aquarium Salt to the 10-gallon tank (1 tablespoon per 5 gallons was the instruction), set the temperature down to 78 F to accommodate both fish types, and floated the fish bag in the tank water for 30 minutes to equalize temperature. After that time, I released the fish into my tank allowing nearly no PetSmart water into the tank.

All seemed well, initially. I then added the tank's background poster and the external thermometer sticker. Then, I fed the fish some food: TetraColor Plus Tropical Flakes. I fed a very small amount (maybe six flakes, and four were eaten).

That was all at 3:00pm. At 5:00pm one Jumbo Neon Tetra was dead, and the other two were struggling mightily. Soon after, all three Jumbo Neon Tetras were dead . The Guppies *seem* fine. So, I found this website and I'd like your advice to fix my tank for future fish.

Please help!

 

[gil]

Well... Im not sure about the salt you added, that could have changed water conditions, also the fact that you did not cycle your filter, added the fish and then the food. Water parameters can change quickly in a 10 gallon.
Were the fish swimming on top like if they were gasping for air? Maybe the temp was a bit on the high side?
I would suggest you do some reading on cycling tanks, there's plenty of good reading here on Aquarium Advice.com, and start off slowly.

 

[mommytron]

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/fishless-cycling-for-dummies-103339.html

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...-but-i-already-have-fish-what-now-116287.html

read these threads/articles. great info. the problem is that your water wasn't ready for fish because it has not undergone the nitrogen cycle. do your own research on the nitrogen cycle as well, so you can understand on your own terms (it helped me a lot, as i made the exact mistake that you did)

your next steps will be to buy a liquid test kit (API Freshwater Master Test Kit ~$20), a good siphon if you don't already own one, monitor ammonia/nitrite/nitrate as you waitforthe nitrogen cycle to take place, and if you wish to keep the fish you already have, perform daily %50 (or more as needed) PWC's (partial water changes)

sorry about your fish the most important thing in this hobby is research. you will learn a lot very quickly, and will continue to learn as long as you are in the hobby.

welcome to AA, look forward to hearing a success story to follow this up!!


edit:: also, a link on proper fish acclimation: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/artic...you-need-to-know-about-Acclimation/Page1.html

and you do not need salt for guppies. aquarium salt should only be used to medicate fish.

 

[JackSpadesSI]

I understand that a 10-gallon tank can increase concentrations of toxins, but when I had the larger tank as a kid I lost maybe four fish over three years (out of 15+). I never checked the water's chemistry. I never cycled the water before buying fish. I didn't do anything beyond daily feeding and monthly PWC. It was so easy!

The neons, from the get-go, were opening and closing their mouths constantly, but not near the surface. (The guppies, meanwhile, almost never open their mouths.) They were swimming fine and being social for the first little while. Then, when things started to go badly for them, they were lying on the bottom with the same gasping expression before finally dying.

Are my guppies doomed? They seem energetic enough at the moment. PetSmart's info card for the guppies said "requires aquarium salt". Should I do a 50% PWC to replace with some fresh tap water (equalized to room temp, with some additional TetraAqua AquaSafe)? Or, will they deal with the existing saltiness alright?

 

[saltwatertogo]

good advice, stick with the fish you have for the next 2 mo. no new fish. it takes aprox. 6 to 8 weeks so pick up a nitrite and ammonia test kits or you could take to your LFS once a week for the next 6 to 8 weeks and you'll be able to watch it cycle. at the end of 8 wks. you most likely be ready for new fish. good luck

keep us posted

Fishman

 

[JackSpadesSI]

What are my guppies' chances? Do I need to do an emergency PWC tonight?

It is going to be lonely in there with only two fish... I was hoping to buy more sooner :-/

 

[fort384]

Do a 50% water change now if you want them to live. It will probably take 50% PWCs daily for awhile to get it right. In the mean time you will need a test kit.

Neons are almost the worst possible fish to put in a new tank that is not cycled...

 

[JackSpadesSI]

Oh, and where do the ammonia-eating and nitrite-eating bacteria come from? Do I need to be adding these somehow?!

 

[fort384]

They occur naturally. You don't need to add anything. They will grow if they have a food source (ammonia/nitrite) much the same way bacteria grow on your damp kitchen sponge

 

[JackSpadesSI]

Should I leave *out* the salt when I add water back the the aquarium after the 50% PWC?

 

[fort384]

yes. I would... I don't think it would hurt anything if it is dosed properly, but I don't think it will help either.

 

[mommytron]

the problem with aquarium salt always being present in the water is that when it comes time to medicate for things like ich, aquarium salt is the most effective treatment, but since the fish is used to aquarium salt always being there, it doesn't do anything. guppies do not need aquarium salt, no fish do (unless it is needed for a short period for medication). there are some fish that like brackish water (like mollies), but marine salt is used to make brackish water.

if you add more fish before the tank has built up a bacteria colony, there will be even more ammonia build-up in the tank. when level reaches levels higher than .25ppm, it starts to burn their gills, and with prolonged exposure to high concentrations of ammonia they will eventually die. this is why you should be testing your water for ammonia and doing at least 50% PWC's whenever the ammonia rises above .25ppm. with two guppies in a 10g tank, my guess is that you will need to do 50% PWC every other day, assuming you aren't overfeeding (i would say every other day is good while cycling) for a month or so until your ammonia and nitrite consistently read 0ppm and you have some sort of nitrate reading.

your neons most likely died because they were not acclimated properly, and like someone said earlier in the thread, they are one of the worst fish to put in an uncycled tank.

 

[mudraker]

[/QUOTE]PetSmart's info card for the guppies said "requires aquarium salt".

PetSmart, Petco and most fish retailers are the worst sources of proper information on fish keeping.

Like telling you your water was safe for fish. If it had any ammonia (which I doubt, as it hadn't cycled yet, they probably used an inaccurate test strip instead of liquid drops).

They also should have asked how long it had been since you had set the tank up.

Guppies can tolerate a lot of salt, but don't actually need it when healthy. No true freshwater fish needs salt.

Many will sell brackish fish (the mollys Mommnytron mentioned for instance) as freshwaters, when in reality they do require salt.

 

[dkpate]

+10 to all the above posts. I would do a water change right now, and get a liquid test kit. Sounds like the pet store uses paper strips, and those are very inaccurate.

 

[lily8808]

i would take out the plastic plants and any painted decorations they wont be helping your case... the plants will scratch your fish and they will be more prone to illness.. and the paint used on the decorations are lead paint and if its deadly to humans kinda makes you wonder what it could do to a fish... and as i understand guppys and fresh water fish dont need salt at all please correct me if im wrong tho i'd also making sure when you buy the fish to ask where the breeder is if its not in the same country as you i'd be putting it in a hospital tank for at least a week... if it lives congratz! if it doesnt thats not your fault it was probably sick before you brought it... i was talking to a fish shop guy here in aussie and hes really fussy with the fish he gets all of his fish are bred here in australia and he has a 0 kill rate he said to run prime and stability thru my tanks for 2 weeks before putting the fish in and to leave the bag in the tank for 10 mins then to let a tiny bit of the water in to the bag for them to get use to the tank water then to tip all of the water and fish in the tank.. im hope it helps ive done a heap of research on how to get the tank started and trust me its alot to take in i walked out of the fish shop after talking to this guy for 2 hours and felt dizzy

 

[JackSpadesSI]

Well, I did the PWC last night (~30%) and the guppies are still alive and well this morning.

A couple questions:

- What's the best equipment for siphoning out water for a PWC in a 10-gallon tank? I've read here about a Python, but that seems better suited to larger tanks.

- What's the best way to get new water to the correct temperature? It took me an hour just to get 3 gallons of water to 78 F! Also, how precise do I need to be with new water temperature - one degree, five degrees?

Thanks for all the advice so far!

 

[fort384]

I would do another pwc today--50%. For that size tank a python would work but is unnecessary IMO. I would just use a small gravel vac/siphon.

As far as temp, try and get it to within 1-2 degrees. The human hand is good at determining temp. Just stick your hand in the tank and then under the faucet and try and get close. I have never even checked the temp with a thermometer while doing pwcs and I always just add the water straight away (after adding prime of course!).

 

[jenatron]

i'd also making sure when you buy the fish to ask where the breeder is if its not in the same country as you i'd be putting it in a hospital tank for at least a week... if it lives congratz! if it doesnt thats not your fault it was probably sick before you brought it... i was talking to a fish shop guy here in aussie and hes really fussy with the fish he gets all of his fish are bred here in australia and he has a 0 kill rate he said to run prime and stability thru my tanks for 2 weeks before putting the fish in and to leave the bag in the tank for 10 mins then to let a tiny bit of the water in to the bag for them to get use to the tank water then to tip all of the water and fish in the tank..

People can correct me if I'm wrong, but what you've said is contrary to what I've heard..
-Quarantining: no matter where you get your fish from or how healthy they look, ALWAYS quarantine for 4 weeks.
-Acclimating fish: You're right to float the bag and introduce tank water to it, BUT do not pour the bag water into your tank. First, in this context, you wouldn't be quarantining. Also, since you don't know what kind of nasties are in the bag, you're introducing them to your tank along with a possible sick fish.
So when acclimating new fish, yes float them and yes introduce your tank water, but do not dump the water into your tank.

 

[JackSpadesSI]

Is Seachem Prime just a brand loyalty thing around here, or is it really significantly better than the TetraAqua AquaSafe Plus that I bought?

 

[jenatron]

Is Seachem Prime just a brand loyalty thing around here, or is it really significantly better than the TetraAqua AquaSafe Plus that I bought?

From what I've come to understand there's a couple things better about prime:
-Prime neutralizes ammonia. It also states it detoxifies nitrite and nitrate also. This is temporary, but can be helpful while cycling with fish if used during daily PWCs.
-It's more concentrated, it treats more water. In a 100ml bottle: TetraAqua AquaSafe Plus treats 200 gallons, Prime treats 1000.