Substrate Experience for Low Tech/Light Tank

[hjsvt]

I'm looking for suggestions from others with hard water on what type of substrate to use for a 29 gallon beginner planted tank. I have just finished cycling and adding fish and I thought initially my pH increases were related to ammonia additions. I am still in the process of testing it but it appears that my Flora-Max/Eco-Complete substrate is causing my pH to rise quickly to 8.5ish and possibility higher. But my plants are doing really well in it! I currently have 1 large mother amazon sword with several runners and babies, 3 java ferns, 2 moss balls, some micro swords, 2 anubias hastifolia, 4 banana plants, 3dwarf sagittaria. Everything has new growth except the java ferns and moss balls but they both still look great. I have a 29 gallon tank with a Finnex Stingray lamp that I'm running from 7-11:30 and 4-9 daily. I picked up two different kinds of organic potting soil today and I was going to set up some test jars to see what the ph change and ammonia/nutrient leaching looked like with both of them. From everything I've read, a dirted tank is more for high tech/high light situations and I don't want to go there right now. I am just aiming for average growth plants for water quality filtering, happy fish and a more natural looking aquarium. Any suggestions you have I would appreciate. I've read a lot of information but it's so hard to know what direction to go given all my water issues. Thank you.

 

[uncgirl1]

In reading through the forum is seems that for low light tanks a lot of people recommend what you are using. However, I've also read some good things about Fluval Stratum. There is a post called ADA Aquasoil that may peak your interest as there are some experienced people discussing substrates.


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[hjsvt]

Thanks uncgirl1! I have read that thread and many others. The Eco-complete got such great reviews and for the price I thought it was perfect. But that's not the case with my water although my plants are doing great. It's very frustrating. I feel like I try to do the right thing and pick the best product and then it doesn't work out.

I can't seem to find any ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia available anywhere online. I've narrowed it down to two I guess. St. International Aqua Soil and Seachem Flourite Black Sand. The Flourite Black Sand is considerably cheaper. And I can't find much about the St. International Aqua Soil only the ADA Aqua Soil. I wish I could get a little bit of both to try in some of my water. I really really don't want to buy anymore stuff that isn't going to work in with my water.

Does anyone have some extra of either of these products lying around and would be willing to send 4-5 oz my way? I'd be happy to pay shipping. Thanks!

 

[uncgirl1]

Thanks uncgirl1! I have read that thread and many others. The Eco-complete got such great reviews and for the price I thought it was perfect. But that's not the case with my water although my plants are doing great. It's very frustrating. I feel like I try to do the right thing and pick the best product and then it doesn't work out.

I can't seem to find any ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia available anywhere online. I've narrowed it down to two I guess. St. International Aqua Soil and Seachem Flourite Black Sand. The Flourite Black Sand is considerably cheaper. And I can't find much about the St. International Aqua Soil only the ADA Aqua Soil. I wish I could get a little bit of both to try in some of my water. I really really don't want to buy anymore stuff that isn't going to work in with my water.

Does anyone have some extra of either of these products lying around and would be willing to send 4-5 oz my way? I'd be happy to pay shipping. Thanks!

I have Flourite but it's in my tank or I'd share with you!

I found the Amazonian Aquasoil online here:

http://angelfins.ca/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=26_27

They are in Canada so I'm not sure about shipping to the U.S. but maybe? Sorry I couldn't be of more help!

Maybe your tests will show that the Eco complete is ok.


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[bcarl_10gal]

Take a look into Brightwell. I have heard some cases of eco complete causing changes in pH. Just depends on the bag. Id check your tap by putting water in a glass and let it sit for 24 hours and test it.


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[hjsvt]

Here are latest results of my substrate test. Just a note, my tank substrate is actually mostly Flora-Max with some Eco-Complete mixed in. But my understanding is they are essentially the same product. The only difference is Flora-Max is dry and Eco-complete is wet with more possible bacteria. However, all I have is a part bag of new Eco-Complete to compare to my tank substrate.

Here are my test samples:
#1 - New Eco-Complete with 1:1 RO:Hard Well Water
#2 - New Eco-Complete with 100% RO Water
#3 - Flora-Max Substrate Mix from my tank with 1:1 RO:Hard Well Water
#4 - Flora-Max Substrate Mix from my tank with 100% RO Water
#5 - Control 1:1 RO:Hard Well Water (no substrate)
#6 - Control 100% RO Water (no substrate)

A picture of my results from this morning, about 22 hrs from test start, are attached. As expected, 100% RO with new out of the bag Eco-Complete is seeing the most pH change but the change is not significant or comparable to what I've seen in my tank. (this may also be compounded by the limits the API master test kit pH tests. I do have a pond test kit coming) So I think temperature most be contributing to the rapid increase. My samples are sitting at room temperature 66-68 roughly and my tank is at 76 now and during my fishless cycle when I saw the hightest readings I was closer to 78-80. The good news is my tank was at 8.2 this morning the same as yesterday. Now whether is this a leveling out of the substrate or the result of the addition of the peat granules. I don't know. But I'm still concerned about the pH swing. The pH after a 50% water change on Monday was 7.2-7.4 and it has climbed to 8.2 in 2 days and held steady for 1.

I have Flourite but it's in my tank or I'd share with you!

I found the Amazonian Aquasoil online here:

Aqua Soil : AngelFins

They are in Canada so I'm not sure about shipping to the U.S. but maybe? Sorry I couldn't be of more help!

Maybe your tests will show that the Eco complete is ok.

That's a great link uncgirl1! Thanks so much! They even have a comparison of the three different soils ADA makes. I really don't want to get into the nutrient leaching of the amazonian as I already have fish in. I really also don't want another substrate that DOES effect the pH even if in the opposite direction. It looks like the Africana soil looks like a better choice give advertised ph change and nutrient leaching. I'll have to contact the supplier regarding costs to ship to me. I have ordered from Canadian companies before and even though they are right across the border from me, the shipping has been crazy. So it may be cost prohibitive. I really want a neutral pH substrate that is great for my low tech/low light planted tank. Why is that so hard to find??!!

Thanks for the Brightwell suggestion bcarl_10gal. It looks like they have two products that have 3 different sizes each. I'll do some more research on them. It does appear that they also effect the pH by softening and lowering the pH. I haven't seen anything yet on whether they leach ammonia.

Thank you both for the help!

Is there anyone out there using the Eco-Complete or Flora-Max that saw an "inital" pH increase but after sticking with it experienced a leveling out to water change pH? Just wondering and thinking about my next steps. Did you removed the Eco-Complete after discovering the issue or did you stick with it and monitor it? My plants are growing great! My Dwarf Sagittaria is doing fabulous and starting to spread by sending up new shoots away from the original plants. My mother amazon sword is growing new leaves and a new runner for babies. I am really happy with the plant growth. So do I stick with it and keep monitoring it, do some more water changes? Or do I consider up-rooting everything, switching substrates and all that may entail? Also, iI really had my heart set on some Flame Dwarf Gouramis and cherry shrimp but my lfs has said no to both because of the 8.0+ pH of my tank. Any thoughts?


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[trennamw]

My low tech low light tank has plain o sand. Love it.

I make diy Osmocote root tabs and that's about it.


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[Fresh2o]

I use EcoComplete in my low tech and high tech tanks. Never seen a shift in pH but in all honesty was not really monitoring pH. Both get substrate ferts. Was using AquaFertz root pellets (still have a few left) and started using DIY Osmocote root tabs (from Trennamw).
I did have ONE bad episode with EcoComplete back in 2013 in my low tech tank. I bought some bags of EC from Petco (killer price @ $9 a bag) in Dec-Jan and left them sitting on the floor in my unheated garage for at least 4 months. Added it to a tank with a fishless cycle. Was reading +8 ammonia for days on end. White puffy (bacterial?) growth on every surface of the tank and a heavy oil slick on the surface. Did 95% WCs daily; ammonia would drop to 1.0 and be back over 8.0 with 6-8 hours. Here's the kicker...I had not added ANY ammonia at all to the tank. Whatever was growing in there was spewing ammonia like nobody's business. Ended up trashing everything and sterilizing the tank and equipment. Was an isolated incident.


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[bcarl_10gal]

Fresh have you ever heard of eco going bad after a period of time? Sometimes i notice this black power like spots on my glass.


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[Fresh2o]

Fresh have you ever heard of eco going bad after a period of time? Sometimes i notice this black power like spots on my glass.


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It is an inert material so it should not change over time. I do get BBA growing on it every now and then.
That being said, it is supposedly packaged with heterotrophic bacteria to help kick start a cycle. Maybe have been the root cause. I think it would be fine shipped dry. Additive not necessary IMO.


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[aqua_chem]

Honestly, fertilizer choice only really becomes relevant if you're A) not properly dosing your tank and it's acting like a crutch or B) you're doing really high end stuff where things must be controlled (eg, eriocaulon or plants the want acidic substrates). For everyone in the middle, it's probably not going to make or break a tank (but may break the wallet).

I've used eco, AS, flora base, sand, safe-t-sorb, and all dirt. The only one I have any feelings about whatsoever was the dirt, which was awesome as long as nobody touches it.

 

[hjsvt]

Thank you all for the comments and suggestions about the substrate. I have more test results posted in a new thread in the getting started section. I'm now looking for advice and help with 100% RO water use for freshwater planted aquariums. If you have any expertise in this please comment on my other thread. I'm giving up on the well water. It's apparently the cause of all my problems. I am going to keep my current Flora-Max/Eco-Complete substrate intact. My plants are growing and look great so I'm not going to mess with it. I am going to continue to try to figure out the water issues.

Based on my experiment, Eco-complete right out of the bag does cause an increase in 100% RO water with no added buffers. So if you plan to use this substrate with very soft water with limited buffers, I would proceed with caution as you might see a pH increase.

 

[aqua_chem]

I am curious what problems you think your well water is causing. RODI is mostly used either as a nuclear option vs hard water, by people who absolutely need a high degree of control, eg those with rare breeds of plants or breeders/exotic fish keepers, or by people who overvalue 'ideal' water parameter. It's very rarely necessary in freshwater, IMO.

 

[hjsvt]

1. It is extremely hard with lots of iron.
2. The pH is about 7.6 pH right out of the faucet but with agitation and no peat can climb as high as 8.5 in two days. = not stable for water changes etc.
3. Softened well water is not acceptable at all for fish keeping.

I'm not trying to achieve perfect water conditions. But i am interested a stable reliable water source that doesn't require days of agitation before using for water changes.

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[Caliban07]

1. It is extremely hard with lots of iron.
2. The pH is about 7.6 pH right out of the faucet but with agitation and no peat can climb as high as 8.5 in two days. = not stable for water changes etc.
3. Softened well water is not acceptable at all for fish keeping.

I'm not trying to achieve perfect water conditions. But i am interested a stable reliable water source that doesn't require days of agitation before using for water changes.

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If I were you I would continue to cut well water with RODI. If your water is hard to the extreme you will probably find that plants will do well in this water without a substrate fertiliser since your water may contain ample amounts of the required nutrients.

Cutting will help bring ph down to a level that will suffice your fish options as well as provide the plants with the micro nutrients they need.

Start small and work your way up to 50% water changes. No need to agitate water, if you take it easy the fish will get used to the 1:1 additions and the ph shouldn't shift too much.

Doing it this way will help increase the longevity of your RO membrane and reduce the amount of water wasted during RO collection. You will need a tds meter to validate the performance of your membrane too.


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[hjsvt]

If I were you I would continue to cut well water with RODI. If your water is hard to the extreme you will probably find that plants will do well in this water without a substrate fertiliser since your water may contain ample amounts of the required nutrients.

I don't have a DI only the RO part. I do have a tds meter on order so I can verify the effectiveness of my RO membrane. I am running the softened well water through the RO because the water goes through a particulate filter first then the softener removes all of the GH and a lot of the iron. I hoping this prolongs the life of the RO membrane.

Cutting will help bring ph down to a level that will suffice your fish options as well as provide the plants with the micro nutrients they need.

I was using 1:1 cut well water. 1 part RO to 1 part unsoftened well water and the initial pH is about 7.6 but the problem is the stability. This one to one mix in a bucket with an air stone and nothing else for 82 hours resulted in a pH somewhere between 8.4 and 9.0. The pond pH kit says 9, API high range pH says somewhere between 8.4 and 8.8. IMO this is an unacceptable pH swing for keeping fish. My tank is 1:1 water now and I added peat granules to a filter bag and floated it in the tank about 5 days ago. The pH was initially 8.2 it has dropped to 8.0 and the KH has dropped 1 point in 5 days. I'm not adding anything to the RO water just using it to cut the well water figuring I wanted to keep the good stuff in the well water just cut it in half. The pH swing is my biggest concern. Do I consider adding some acid buffer to the RO water before cutting it to see if I can keep the pH from swinging up so high? But then I feel like I'm just chasing a problem and shouldn't be. Also, I'm trying to get to the point that this whole water mix, additives, etc. is simple and the same every single week.

For right now until I figure out something different or someone has a better suggestion, I'm going to do 25% PWC weekly with my 100% RO water formula and see how things go. I think I'm going to keep the filter bag of peat in there. I think I will also continue my testing and try some other cut well water ratios with agitation to see if I can find a combination that has a stable pH and no swing. I'm fine with pH of 8.0 if it would stay there although I think that limits my fish choices. The problem is 7.6 after PWC and then 8.5 or greater 3-4 days later.

 

[Caliban07]

I don't have a DI only the RO part. I do have a tds meter on order so I can verify the effectiveness of my RO membrane. I am running the softened well water through the RO because the water goes through a particulate filter first then the softener removes all of the GH and a lot of the iron. I hoping this prolongs the life of the RO membrane.



I was using 1:1 cut well water. 1 part RO to 1 part unsoftened well water and the initial pH is about 7.6 but the problem is the stability. This one to one mix in a bucket with an air stone and nothing else for 82 hours resulted in a pH somewhere between 8.4 and 9.0. The pond pH kit says 9, API high range pH says somewhere between 8.4 and 8.8. IMO this is an unacceptable pH swing for keeping fish. My tank is 1:1 water now and I added peat granules to a filter bag and floated it in the tank about 5 days ago. The pH was initially 8.2 it has dropped to 8.0 and the KH has dropped 1 point in 5 days. I'm not adding anything to the RO water just using it to cut the well water figuring I wanted to keep the good stuff in the well water just cut it in half. The pH swing is my biggest concern. Do I consider adding some acid buffer to the RO water before cutting it to see if I can keep the pH from swinging up so high? But then I feel like I'm just chasing a problem and shouldn't be. Also, I'm trying to get to the point that this whole water mix, additives, etc. is simple and the same every single week.

For right now until I figure out something different or someone has a better suggestion, I'm going to do 25% PWC weekly with my 100% RO water formula and see how things go. I think I'm going to keep the filter bag of peat in there. I think I will also continue my testing and try some other cut well water ratios with agitation to see if I can find a combination that has a stable pH and no swing. I'm fine with pH of 8.0 if it would stay there although I think that limits my fish choices. The problem is 7.6 after PWC and then 8.5 or greater 3-4 days later.

As long as you are aware water softeners soften the water by replacing calcium and magnesium ions with sodium around the ratio 3:1 in favour of sodium. The RO would then have to strip that so the membrane would still take singe punishment. Also are you aware that for every one gallon of RO water you could use in excess of 3 gallons of faucet water?

What happens when you mix 1:1 water with the same amount of tank water? Does the ph fluctuate so much then?


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[hjsvt]

As long as you are aware water softeners soften the water by replacing calcium and magnesium ions with sodium around the ratio 3:1 in favour of sodium. The RO would then have to strip that so the membrane would still take singe punishment. Also are you aware that for every one gallon of RO water you could use in excess of 3 gallons of faucet water

Yes I am aware of all of the above. The only access I have to the well water before it goes through the softener is not heated and it comes into the basement at about 60F. The optimum operating temperature for my RO is 77F. I have no way to heat the water and then pressurize it through the RO. Also, I would probably go through twice as many of the small particulate filters before the membrane. In addition, I think the RO membrane would be working a lot harder with unsoftened water. The GH is 23 at least. How does that compare to the added Sodium? I don't know the answer. As far as the waste water is concerned, I'm aware of that too. So what are my options? I've only got 1 29 gallon tank. After displacement I've estimate the water volume at about 25 gallons. 25% water PWC is 6.25 gallons a week. I can't go buy that water and have it be economically feasible. If I had known all I was getting into a month ago I might not have gotten in as deep as I am now. But now I'm committed and I have fish and I'm just trying to make this all work. I haven't tested the waste water output yet. My waste line goes out through a drain in the basement to surface in a field the same with the softener flush water.

What happens when you mix 1:1 water with the same amount of tank water? Does the ph fluctuate so much then?

The tank is 1:1 water right now. The last water change I did was just over a week ago at the end of my cycle and it was a 50% change. The pH after about 30 minutes of the filters running was 7.6. (I don't remember the starting tank pH and I wasn't worried about it because I thought it would come down after my cycle was complete and I did a WC) A day later at the lfs they said it was 8.0 and did not want to sell me cherry shrimp or dwarf gouramis because they said my pH was too high. They said the fish in the store were used to 7.0-7.2 and putting them in 8.0 was too much stress on them at least those to varieties. The cherry barbs, lemon tetras and julii cories seem to be doing fine so far. I had the same pH when I tested at home. That's when I tried to add buffers and adjust - didn't work, next day 8.2. That's when I added the peat granules and now I've holding steady at 8.0. During my fishless cycle I had reading up in the high 8's but thought it was the ammonia additions. After the air stone test, I know it's the water. I have not actually done a test yet where I mix the current tank water with something else and check the pH. I have so many tests running right now and only so much time and space. I though if I made 100% RO water buffered to a pH of 7.5 and mixed it with tank water at 8.0 1:3 (or 25% PWC) I'd be okay. But I haven't actually tested it first. I probably should but I can't do the bubble test on it just yet because I have the 100% RO water in there now after buffered to 7.5 to see if it stays stable after 3 days. I need to do a water change. I'm 3 days over 7 days now but just haven't been able to figure out what to do a PWC with. Although, all my other numbers are fine, 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrites and 10-20 Nitrates right now.

I will mix a small amount of the 100% RO water I have made up and testing with the air stone with 3 parts tank water and see what I get for a pH and let you know. But I won't trust that it will stay that number over time in the tank but maybe with the bag of peat in there it would. I just don't know and I'm not trusting anything at this point.

 

[Caliban07]

I would imagine the membrane would be better off dealing with sodium rather than the hard water make up. I was just making sure you were aware. We have had people filling their tanks with softened water before now and TDS has been a problem.

Also I wasn't saying you should not use an RO membrane because it's bad for the environment. I was just making sure you weren't posing for your water. I don't know if you have water meters in the U.S. But here in the UK I wouldn't be able to run the amount of tanks I have of the house was on a water meter because of the cost.

Ok buffering the 100% RO then adding it would be a better bet as this may reduce fluctuations. Perhaps use sodium bicarbonate? If you just keep swapping out tank water with 100% RO you will (as you know) eventually remove all the alkalinity and ph could fall too low.


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[hjsvt]

I would imagine the membrane would be better off dealing with sodium rather than the hard water make up. I was just making sure you were aware. We have had people filling their tanks with softened water before now and TDS has been a problem.

Also I wasn't saying you should not use an RO membrane because it's bad for the environment. I was just making sure you weren't posing for your water. I don't know if you have water meters in the U.S. But here in the UK I wouldn't be able to run the amount of tanks I have of the house was on a water meter because of the cost.

Ok buffering the 100% RO then adding it would be a better bet as this may reduce fluctuations. Perhaps use sodium bicarbonate? If you just keep swapping out tank water with 100% RO you will (as you know) eventually remove all the alkalinity and ph could fall too low.

Yes, I'm well aware of the softened water problem. We killed two goldfish in a month in softened water because we didn't know any better. Of course chain fs said oh yeah your water is fine. Even though I pointed out that it was softened and had a GH of 0 and a KH of 240+ on the strip test.

I'm not sure what you mean by "posing for your water"? If you are suggesting that I'm being too picky or trying to create "perfect" water when the tap would be just fine, you are very mistaken. I would be so deliriously happy right now if I could simply use the water flowing right out of my kitchen faucet. I'm am not making any of this up nor am I trying to get some attention with this. I'm just trying to get a little help from someone who might have dealt with a similar situation. But I maybe I'm better off to just keep quiet and continue on with whatever I think might be best.

I am not adding 100% unbuffered RO to my tank. I have been cutting well water 1:1 with 100% unbuffered RO and then adding it to the tank. But now I'm not even doing that. I was suggesting maybe buffering the RO water first before I mixed it with the well water but I don't know that it would help at all. But it may be something more to experiment with. I also talked to the water well people today to see what suggestions they might have for non-salt softener. They didn't have any suggestions. I'm going to do some more research on the subject.

So I have two jars on my counter with 100% unbuffered RO water and 1:1 RO:well from my substrate test. I compared both (they have been sitting in a sealed jar at room temp. 66-68F for about 5 days now with no agitation.) to a fresh mix of 3:1 (25% PWC) tank to buffered RO water. There is a picture below. The pH of the 3:1 mix stayed the same as the tank water at 8.0. So I will do a PWC with this combination and it should not result in an immediate pH swing like I've seen previously. However, whether or not it swings over time with agitation is unknown. I'm hopeful that the peat in the tank will prevent a swing.
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