Some Nitrate experiments I ran a long time ago. Part 1

[jarrod0987]

Read your link. All sounds right to me. However, for me I need more specific info. Just a TDS does not tell me what I want to know. I want more specifics on what those solids are I do agree about the osmotic pressure thing though. 100%

 

[Mebbid]

My computer is out of order so i dont have access to my links

 

[jarrod0987]

My computer is out of order so I don't have access to my links

Sorry, I don't understand. I meant I read the link you gave me to read.

 

[coralbandit]

Nice thread!
Thanks jarrod!
You present good info .
Nice link Mebbid!
This on that and TDS....
The link says;
"The use of wood, dried leaves and peat also lowers TDS along with the pH. This also works to keep parasites and (detrimental) bacterial populations low. Some of the cleanest, healthiest and purest streams in the world are the blackwater watercourses in the tropics

So this makes me wonder if the "grains & fermentation" process used to produce alcohol/vodka could possibly have an effect on the TDS?

I think this may need to be tested?

 

[jarrod0987]

Nice thread!
Thanks jarrod!
You present good info .
Nice link Mebbid!
This on that and TDS....
The link says;
"The use of wood, dried leaves and peat also lowers TDS along with the pH. This also works to keep parasites and (detrimental) bacterial populations low. Some of the cleanest, healthiest and purest streams in the world are the blackwater watercourses in the tropics

So this makes me wonder if the "grains & fermentation" process used to produce alcohol/vodka could possibly have an effect on the TDS?

I think this may need to be tested?

It should raise TDS. Anything that dissolves raises TDS I'm pretty sure. I am confused why it says dead leaves lower TDS. Pretty sure they would break down and raise it? Sounds Like Mebbid's area of expertise. What can you tell us about that? Is that True in your experience? I used to have a stand alone TDS meter but I think I gave it away when I got an inline one for my RODI. I have to look for it now Another experiment YEY

 

[Mebbid]

It should raise TDS. Anything that dissolves raises TDS I'm pretty sure. I am confused why it says dead leaves lower TDS. Pretty sure they would break down and raise it? Sounds Like Mebbid's area of expertise. What can you tell us about that? Is that True in your experience? I used to have a stand alone TDS meter but I think I gave it away when I got an inline one for my RODI. I have to look for it now Another experiment YEY

I am not the most apt as far as chemistry goes. Aquachem would be the one for that (he is a chemist after all )

Going with my gut, it should raise it. However im not sure. I would definitely be interested in the results of testing that.

 

[jarrod0987]

I am not the most apt as far as chemistry goes. Aquachem would be the one for that (he is a chemist after all )

Going with my gut, it should raise it. However im not sure. I would definitely be interested in the results of testing that.

I think it goes up. Kind of brings the article into question just a little. I don't have the TDS meter anymore. I looked That's a shame because this Walstad Planted Tanks I'm testing is loaded with TDS. The water is yellow with tannin's which is a good thing in this approach. Lot's of dead plant material and wood in there. I bet it's loaded with TDS

 

[Mebbid]

I think it goes up. Kind of brings the article into question just a little. I don't have the TDS meter anymore. I looked That's a shame because this Walstad Planted Tanks I'm testing is loaded with TDS. The water is yellow with tannin's which is a good thing in this approach. Lot's of dead plant material and wood in there. I bet it's loaded with TDS

True. Like i said my computer is out of order and i refuse to go into scientific papers on my phone ill try to look into it a bit.

 

[Mebbid]

Heres a much better article that the last one i posted seems loosely based off of.

http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=29328

 

[ESeck]

This seems quite interesting, but assuming that this all works, seems like you ate playing a dangerous balancing act all the time. Dose to much or to little and you end up having to do the water changes that you are trying to avoid. Not for me, but still interesting.

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[coralbandit]

In the long run we are talking about milliters or even parts of for daily dosing.
Not a lot and no real trouble.
I find it interesting that sugar is a carbon source AND when dissolved into water does NOT raise the TDS with the electronic testing equipment!

"If sugar is dissolved in water, does it get measured using a TDS meter?
No. Sugar does not have any charges in water, so the TDS meter does not read it."
This was taken from
http://www.chemistryland.com/CHM130FieldLab/Lab2/Lab2.html
I'm thinking that the dosing may not increase TDS at least and without reference still kind of think the vodka dosing may actually lower the TDS?
Reefers would never know as they generally don't test for TDS past their RO/DI units(we have enough other test!) and with the highest TDS levels going(5000 possibly) who would notice if the TDS dropped 50 -100?


Vodka dosing does remove PO4 which is considered a TDS in water.

 

[jarrod0987]

This seems quite interesting, but assuming that this all works, seems like you ate playing a dangerous balancing act all the time. Dose to much or to little and you end up having to do the water changes that you are trying to avoid. Not for me, but still interesting.

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I seem to be unable to convince anyone the risk in is tiny. We all do this in our salty tanks for years now. In freshwater is even safer. If your worried about getting the dosage wrong you can use tumbling bio pellets. I just like the other way because it is way cheaper to implement. Even if you dosed 10 times over the amount or more you will get some cloudy water but no suffocation. You may get some yucky bacterial blooms if you keep doing that.

 

[jarrod0987]

In the long run we are talking about milliters or even parts of for daily dosing.
Not a lot and no real trouble.
I find it interesting that sugar is a carbon source AND when dissolved into water does NOT raise the TDS with the electronic testing equipment!

"If sugar is dissolved in water, does it get measured using a TDS meter?
No. Sugar does not have any charges in water, so the TDS meter does not read it."
This was taken from
Lab 2: Determining TDS
I'm thinking that the dosing may not increase TDS at least and without reference still kind of think the vodka dosing may actually lower the TDS?
Reefers would never know as they generally don't test for TDS past their RO/DI units(we have enough other test!) and with the highest TDS levels going(5000 possibly) who would notice if the TDS dropped 50 -100?


Vodka dosing does remove PO4 which is considered a TDS in water.

This is very interesting about the charge on the TDS. It makes sense to me.
I would also like to say that these Milliliters of Vodka are 75% water too now your really talking a small amount. Unfortunately, it looks like the freshwater folks are set in there ways as usual. Maybe someday they will understand the benefits and find this old thread

 

[Mebbid]

I seem to be unable to convince anyone the risk in is tiny. We all do this in our salty tanks for years now. In freshwater is even safer. If your worried about getting the dosage wrong you can use tumbling bio pellets. I just like the other way because it is way cheaper to implement. Even if you dosed 10 times over the amount or more you will get some cloudy water but no suffocation. You may get some yucky bacterial blooms if you keep doing that.

We do this in our salt tanks, this is true. But you leave out a key snippet of information that saltwater folks dont ever do this without a skimmer and again they dont use it as an excuse to not change their water.

 

[jarrod0987]

We do this in our salt tanks, this is true. But you leave out a key snippet of information that saltwater folks don't ever do this without a skimmer and again they don't use it as an excuse to not change their water.

I did say that in my original posts it part 2. I have continued to say that is it to spread out water changes not skip them entirely. Which...BTW...is the same reason Salt water people do it They say so all the time. Salt water water change on a big tank are a major PITA and cost a lot more money. The skimmer and Activated Carbon and Carbon Dosing and GFO all is designed to help do less water changes.

After all....If it was strictly a health improvement of the tank issue that all this equipment was for, they could just do big water changes every day on there 200 gallon systems. It's better with fresh RODI water and a high quality salt mix. Which is why they do still have to do some water changes. Why not just do that every day then? Simple...Time and Money. That's why all the extra equipment and dosing products exists.

 

[Mebbid]

I did say that in my original posts it part 2. I have continued to say that is it to spread out water changes not skip them entirely. Which...BTW...is the same reason Salt water people do it They say so all the time. Salt water water change on a big tank are a major PITA and cost a lot more money. The skimmer and Activated Carbon and Carbon Dosing and GFO all is designed to help do less water changes.

After all....If it was strictly a health improvement of the tank issue that all this equipment was for, they could just do big water changes every day on there 200 gallon systems. It's better with fresh RODI water and a high quality salt mix. Which is why they do still have to do some water changes. Why not just do that every day then? Simple...Time and Money. That's why all the extra equipment and dosing products exists.

I have a 120g reef system myself. Regardless of what equipment is run, skimmers, carbon, gfo, etc. The standard of care for reef tanks is at least 10% weekly water changes. They are done because the salt water people acknowledge that there are a lot of elements in the water that need to be replaced. Water changes in properly set up salt water tanks are solely for replenishment rather than control of nitrates and phosphates.

Water changes are an essential part of tank maintenance. Encouraging people that carbon dosing to control nitrates will create a safer environment for their fish while allowing them to slack on water changes is highly misleading.

There are a huge number of people on this site that barely understand the nitrogen cycle and suggesting a delicate balancing act such as this is risky at best. More experienced aquarists such as you, i, and a lot of seasoned aquarists here could do this relatively worry free. But keep in mind that your audience consists of many many newcomers to the hobby as well.

 

[LayzorBeams]

Im way out of my league in this discussion. I want to be in biology but this... Make me rethink what im trying to work towards in life ?

Waaaaayyyyyy to complicated for me. Evolved from one to another and now its more complicated than before. I will just do water changes for a while longer.


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[Mebbid]

Im way out of my league in this discussion. I want to be in biology but this... Make me rethink what im trying to work towards in life ?

Waaaaayyyyyy to complicated for me. Evolved from one to another and now its more complicated than before. I will just do water changes for a while longer.


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Research, research, and more research my friend. It helps if you look at the concepts being discussed, and then break it up into different topics which can be individually researched in a more basic form. Its a lot of work, but its not terribly hard to get there.

 

[jarrod0987]

I have a 120g reef system myself. Regardless of what equipment is run, skimmers, carbon, gfo, etc. The standard of care for reef tanks is at least 10% weekly water changes. They are done because the salt water people acknowledge that there are a lot of elements in the water that need to be replaced. Water changes in properly set up salt water tanks are solely for replenishment rather than control of nitrates and phosphates.

I agree about the trace elements and how important it is to replace them. This knowledge is missing from the freshwater side. Unfortunately, I don't believe tap water contains much. I wish I had a good test for it

Also 10% weakly is not enough to manage the high levels of nitrate in a n overstocked Freshwater tank. Which is where my idea comes in.

What do you think of Red Seas new A B C and D trace program?

Also I thought you might find this speaker from MACNA Intereasting.

Water changes are an essential part of tank maintenance. Encouraging people that carbon dosing to control nitrates will create a safer environment for their fish while allowing them to slack on water changes is highly misleading.

I don't remember saying it was safer. I said it was not unsafe. Please show me where I said it was safer?

Slacking on water changes is a matter of opinion what is the proper amount. Honestly, you know as well as I do every tank is different and what your tank needs will vary. You also know as well as I do people just make these numbers of % and frequency up out of there head. If the fish are happy and healthy then must be you have enough.

There are a huge number of people on this site that barely understand the nitrogen cycle and suggesting a delicate balancing act such as this is risky at best. More experienced aquarists such as you, i, and a lot of seasoned aquarists here could do this relatively worry free. But keep in mind that your audience consists of many many newcomers to the hobby as well.

I agree with the idea there are many new people here. I expect they will know this this is over there head when they see it. I'm here to bring everything I learned to the rest of the people. The hobby can not advance if we always avoid advanced topics just because we have some inexperienced people around. The forum is for every hobbyists at all levels not just novices. We might attract a few more experienced veterans if we actually had some more advanced topics. I respect your experience and approach. In fact your reef approach sounds very much like mine. That doesn't mean us advanced folks that you refer to cannot discuss or use alternate methods to make the hobby more pleasant for us. At the higher levels of the hobby it is all about aesthetics, health, and reduced Maintenance For some of us....It's about trying out new ideas and methods.

 

[jarrod0987]

Im way out of my league in this discussion. I want to be in biology but this... Make me rethink what im trying to work towards in life ?

Waaaaayyyyyy to complicated for me. Evolved from one to another and now its more complicated than before. I will just do water changes for a while longer.


Sent from my iPod touch using Aquarium Advice

Biology is awesome. I'm trying to get better at that myself.