Cleaning filter with tap water

[Delapool]

First up this is not a suggestion to do so.

I'm just sitting here after testing for ammonia in the small tank. It's gone a bit cloudy after cleaning the hob filter with the hose (ie no old tank or conditioned water used). The ammonia reading is 0 about 12hrs after cleaning. I'll test again in morning. The tank is pretty well stocked and has a bare bottom. Almost disappointed as I thought for sure this would kill off the nitrifying bacteria population given the hob filter is pretty basic.

So I know we've discussed this before but how tough is the nitrifying bacteria? I'm starting to think I just lucked out getting a mini cycle a few years back as have never managed to repeat it and it's much easier to get filters clean with the hose then trying to swish around in a bucket of conditioned water.

 

[BillD]

Cloudiness isn't caused by lack of nitrifying bacteria, but, rather, the proliferation of heterotrophic bacteria. So, the nitrifying bacteria may have survived the chlorinated tap water in enough numbers to still consume ammonia. They are not easily removed from the filter media. Swishing filter media around in a bucket, especially sponges, won't get them clean. They need to be vigorously squeezed.
As well, after 12 hours, whatever nitrifying bacteria would have been left (if you even lost any) would have at least doubled.

 

[Caliban07]

First up this is not a suggestion to do so.

I'm just sitting here after testing for ammonia in the small tank. It's gone a bit cloudy after cleaning the hob filter with the hose (ie no old tank or conditioned water used). The ammonia reading is 0 about 12hrs after cleaning. I'll test again in morning. The tank is pretty well stocked and has a bare bottom. Almost disappointed as I thought for sure this would kill off the nitrifying bacteria population given the hob filter is pretty basic.

So I know we've discussed this before but how tough is the nitrifying bacteria? I'm starting to think I just lucked out getting a mini cycle a few years back as have never managed to repeat it and it's much easier to get filters clean with the hose then trying to swish around in a bucket of conditioned water.

It's difficult to say how tough the nitrifying bacteria is without extensive testing and scientific data. What with the varying amounts of chlorine/chlorine that suppliers use these days. Also, who's to say that chlorine/chloramines are the ONLY things in our rapidly changing tap waters that the nitrifying bacteria need to worry about?

What we do know is, that the use dechlorinated and treated water we do not see these 'blooms'.

The bloom suggests to me that there has definitely been some loss as the heterotrophic bacteria are now free floating trying to take advantage of the newly availed surface area.

Another I came across during research was that the ammonia nitrifying bacteria are much more efficient than the nitrite nitrifying bacteria. This could mean that lesser numbers of nitrosomonas bacteria are still able to bring down ammonia with no problems. Keep track of nitrite as well as ammonia.

I don't think you will have a problem though as not all the bacteria is in the filter as you know.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[PB_Smith]

Even though I generally council against it, I usually just rinse any mechanical media in a strong stream of straight tap water...BUT as some of may know, I ridiculously over filter my tanks and always have redundant systems so cleaning any one has minimal impact.


The question of "where" the BB resides is pretty straightforward to me. Bacteria will colonize every surface available. The only real requirements are a food source and oxygen source.
Having met those criteria, the BB will then of course be most populous in the areas of the tank with the most available surface area, which is usually the substrate in most aquariums. that is why under gravel filters are probably the best biological nitrification filtration methodology around. After that would be fluidized bed filters, but for other reasons of maintenance and keeping the bio-media "fresh", fluidized filters take the win between the two.
Second would be canister filters by virtue of the area available for media; sponges, ceramic, bio-balls (probably the worst).
Next would be the various HOB filters that probably provide the least amount of surface area for BB colonization.


Now the filtering in each set-up is managed by forcing the volume of water to circulate through the media. That does not translate into the majority of BB residing in the filter, it is just that the water is being forced through it.


Think of a saltwater reef set-up that relies on primarily live rock for biological filtration. Those set-ups really only work whenever the is a strong current forcing the water through and around the rock.
So in most set-ups, unless using an under gravel or fluidized bed filter, the majority of BB resides elsewhere in the system and generally speaking cleaning the sponges or whatever shouldn't have that drastic of an impact, if everything else in the system is up to par and healthy.


But when I look at the caliber of filtration that is often sold in these kits and stuff, they are just so pathetically underpowered and overrated that IMO they just lead to problems.

But to play it safe if you are not certain, use treated water and never completely clean everything in your filtration scheme at one time.

 

[BillD]

What we do know is, that the use dechlorinated and treated water we do not see these 'blooms'.

The bloom suggests to me that there has definitely been some loss as the heterotrophic bacteria are now free floating trying to take advantage of the newly availed surface area.

Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

The aforementioned hetero bacteria is not nitrifying bacteria. They are in the water column and in the filter, but they produce ammonia as they consume organic materials in the tank. When they increase to a high enough number, they are visible as a cloudiness (bloom) in the water.
One method of filtration not mentioned by PB_Smith is the Hamburg/mattenfilter. It has huge surface area and relatively low flow.They are enjoying new popularity although they have been around about 50 years.They are relatively inexpensive and can go years without maintenance.

 

[Caliban07]

The aforementioned hetero bacteria is not nitrifying bacteria. They are in the water column and in the filter, but they produce ammonia as they consume organic materials in the tank. When they increase to a high enough number, they are visible as a cloudiness (bloom) in the water.

One method of filtration not mentioned by PB_Smith is the Hamburg/mattenfilter. It has huge surface area and relatively low flow.They are enjoying new popularity although they have been around about 50 years.They are relatively inexpensive and can go years without maintenance.

I know this BillD thanks.



Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[Caliban07]

Even though I generally council against it, I usually just rinse any mechanical media in a strong stream of straight tap water...BUT as some of may know, I ridiculously over filter my tanks and always have redundant systems so cleaning any one has minimal impact.


The question of "where" the BB resides is pretty straightforward to me. Bacteria will colonize every surface available. The only real requirements are a food source and oxygen source.
Having met those criteria, the BB will then of course be most populous in the areas of the tank with the most available surface area, which is usually the substrate in most aquariums. that is why under gravel filters are probably the best biological nitrification filtration methodology around. After that would be fluidized bed filters, but for other reasons of maintenance and keeping the bio-media "fresh", fluidized filters take the win between the two.
Second would be canister filters by virtue of the area available for media; sponges, ceramic, bio-balls (probably the worst).
Next would be the various HOB filters that probably provide the least amount of surface area for BB colonization.


Now the filtering in each set-up is managed by forcing the volume of water to circulate through the media. That does not translate into the majority of BB residing in the filter, it is just that the water is being forced through it.


Think of a saltwater reef set-up that relies on primarily live rock for biological filtration. Those set-ups really only work whenever the is a strong current forcing the water through and around the rock.
So in most set-ups, unless using an under gravel or fluidized bed filter, the majority of BB resides elsewhere in the system and generally speaking cleaning the sponges or whatever shouldn't have that drastic of an impact, if everything else in the system is up to par and healthy.


But when I look at the caliber of filtration that is often sold in these kits and stuff, they are just so pathetically underpowered and overrated that IMO they just lead to problems.

But to play it safe if you are not certain, use treated water and never completely clean everything in your filtration scheme at one time.

+1

Trying to explain to some people that the substrate contains probably the most bacteria can be very difficult.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[PB_Smith]

One method of filtration not mentioned by PB_Smith is the Hamburg/mattenfilter. It has huge surface area and relatively low flow.They are enjoying new popularity although they have been around about 50 years.They are relatively inexpensive and can go years without maintenance.

Didn't recognize it by name, but after doing a search I was "Oh yeah, I remember that", I've seen those used in hatcheries and wholesalers before.

Refreshing my memory, this gives me some new ideas for a sump system when I set my 80 gallon up for freshwater.......loads of possibilities

thanks for the reminder.

 

[aqua_holic]

First up this is not a suggestion to do so.

I'm just sitting here after testing for ammonia in the small tank. It's gone a bit cloudy after cleaning the hob filter with the hose (ie no old tank or conditioned water used). The ammonia reading is 0 about 12hrs after cleaning. I'll test again in morning. The tank is pretty well stocked and has a bare bottom. Almost disappointed as I thought for sure this would kill off the nitrifying bacteria population given the hob filter is pretty basic.

So I know we've discussed this before but how tough is the nitrifying bacteria? I'm starting to think I just lucked out getting a mini cycle a few years back as have never managed to repeat it and it's much easier to get filters clean with the hose then trying to swish around in a bucket of conditioned water.

The bacteria is the most resilient thing in your tank. I've tried - it's extremely hard to kill off, IME.

By the way, welcome to the dark side

 

[Delapool]

The bacteria is the most resilient thing in your tank. I've tried - it's extremely hard to kill off, IME.

By the way, welcome to the dark side

Lol - this took me by surprise a little as I think HOB filters are so small and I only have 1 on this tank. The DT has multiple filters just to prevent this ever being an issue. Thanks all for the replies, much appreciated.

Some background for interest is the tank is 5 gal with bare glass bottom. Stocked with fry and neons. There are three pieces of driftwood and moderately planted. Running for 9 months and quite stable. The HOB has 3 sponges with some ceramic biomedia I added. The filter had clogged up and I ended up pulling it apart sponge by sponge before sorting out. Of course it was the very last sponge that made most of the difference.

I tested ammonia and nitrite this morning and both were 0. The bacterial bloom has cleared up. Sooo, I've taken that as a sign the tank was a bit unstable but has re-balanced. Your right, two differant bacterial populations and I don't know how one relates to the other or even if they are related. But, I didn't get a bacterial bloom when I removed the gravel a month back to make a bare bottom tank nor is it normal on water changes, so I am assuming I've pushed the envelope a bit this time.

It would be interesting to re-clean the filter next weekend (kind of test to destruction), but in all fairness I can't do that to the fish (just in case). I'd like to understand if the bacteria is mainly in the filter and surviving the cleaning OR(?) there is enough nitrifying bacteria in the rest of the tank so it doesn't matter. I guess I really need to set up an experiment tank. (Gee, getting that approved from family committee will be tricky.)

 

[aqua_holic]

I am continually amazed. I once left a canister filter full of water, but unplugged, for several months. Plugged it back in, added fish and i still had an intact cycle. Having 5 permanently setup quarantine tanks, I've had many opportunities to experiment. The only way one can know where the line is is to cross it, and the further from the line one positions themselves, the harder it is to see.

 

[Caliban07]

I am continually amazed. I once left a canister filter full of water, but unplugged, for several months. Plugged it back in, added fish and i still had an intact cycle. Having 5 permanently setup quarantine tanks, I've had many opportunities to experiment. The only way one can know where the line is is to cross it, and the further from the line one positions themselves, the harder it is to see.

One of the papers I read on the survivability of the bacteria was that it lasted 3 months without an ammonia/nitrite source. Upon re-exposure to to ammonia the bacteria carried on working as normal. It could have been much longer, but that is how far the test went. Forcing the bacteria in to a state of dormancy and exposing it to something that has scientifically been proven to destroy it isn't quite the same. I'm not sure what extra benefits are to be expected by rinsing in tap as opposed to tank anyway.

But you are right, there is a lot to be learned by exploring the boundaries.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[Delapool]

One of the papers I read on the survivability of the bacteria was that it lasted 3 months without an ammonia/nitrite source. Upon re-exposure to to ammonia the bacteria carried on working as normal. It could have been much longer, but that is how far the test went. Forcing the bacteria in to a state of dormancy and exposing it to something that has scientifically been proven to destroy it isn't quite the same. I'm not sure what extra benefits are to be expected by rinsing in tap as opposed to tank anyway.

But you are right, there is a lot to be learned by exploring the boundaries.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

It's mainly how clean you can get the sponges (in a shorter amount of time) for me. The sponges and even filter wool hold up pretty well to getting blasted by the hose. I've yet to replace a sponge but the filter wool does thin out so I add an extra one over the top every so often.

I tried this with a canister filter off for 2 weeks but got a real rotten egg smell on switching it back on. The smell did clear after a few hours. My sister regularly has her tank go dormant with last fish gone and then re-starts after a few months with no water chemistry issues. Between myself and the lfs we have been nagging her on water changes more than once every 2 months